Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 184 - AVS Forum
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post #5491 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by chengbin View Post
The problem is that the DD-18 is known to be a "wimpy" output sub, and the dragon should be able to destroy the DD-18 in output. John's test shows the dragon only 1dB louder than the DD-18, and that's why many people are shocked.

Yes a DD-18 is not a high output sub. The Dragon is about the same size Sealed sub so why should it be able to destroy it ?

"Craigsub was able to measure 109db AVERAGE from 20-62hz at 2m away with a single DD-18"

A 999 dragon same room giving about same SPL is very good. Chad worked hard keeping the price under a grand.

It is smaller and less than half the cost and has about same SPL and SQ. That is a hell of a job way to go Epik helping people like me that need a sub like a DD-18 but could never come up with the money for one.

Marc
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post #5492 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorbackfan View Post

Originally Posted by chengbin View Post
The problem is that the DD-18 is known to be a "wimpy" output sub, and the dragon should be able to destroy the DD-18 in output. John's test shows the dragon only 1dB louder than the DD-18, and that's why many people are shocked.

Yes a DD-18 is not a high output sub. The Dragon is about the same size Sealed sub so why should it be able to destroy it ?

"Craigsub was able to measure 109db AVERAGE from 20-62hz at 2m away with a single DD-18"

A 999 dragon same room giving about same SPL is very good. Chad worked hard keeping the price under a grand.

It is smaller and less than half the cost and has about same SPL and SQ. That is a hell of a job way to go Epik helping people like me that need a sub like a DD-18 but could never come up with the money for one.

Marc

I don't think that the capabilities of the Dragon and DD-18 are equal. I would imagine that given a true max SPL test the Dragon should be able to lay waste to the DD-18 especially in the nether regions like 20hz. At 20hz craigsub tested the DD-18 to output at 95db, but the previous line of Epik subs (Castle at $999) was able to output 115.5db at 20hz. My math may be off slightly but assuming you can't colocate that many subs you would need 6-8 DD-18's to match one Castle's output at 20hz. At $999 the Castle was an extraordinary value. I'm not so sure that the Dragon can't be pushed harder than it was because the new line is SUPPOSED to eclipse the old line and I bet it does. The difference should be more startling at the lower frequencies though as opposed to an average of what the Dragon vs. the DD-18 can do throughout the frequency spectrum they normally cover.
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post #5493 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 11:06 AM
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I received my Dragon 18-inch subwoofer yesterday via FedEx Home Delivery.

I originally placed my online order on February 28th, so a 3-week lead time is looking spot on (at least for the Dragon Subs).

After unpacking it and moving it into its corner I noticed it got dinged up in a few places. Coming from a HSU STF-2 which is NOT mdf material, I was a little pissed. But that's my fault for not taking care when placing the sub.

BEWARE: the MDF veneer is very delicate, the smallest bump or nick will leave an unsightly mark showing the lighter composite wood underneath.

Anyway, after unpacking, I noticed it had no feet. I live in an apartment in New York City, and with my concrete floors the sub would immediately produce a rattling noise (based on past experience). My solution was to head down to Home Depot this morning and buy Shepherd Anti-skid pads: UPC #039003096451 for $2.69.

After screwing them on, I turned the volume knob to the 2-o'clock position and started pumping out music from my local Hip-Hop radio station. The 18-inch woofer was moving in and out and the windows were rattling, I could feel the pressure in my ears, but the sub didn't budge an inch, nor did it make a rattling noise. Problem solved.

Anyway, I don't have a radio shack meter yet, but I'll be getting one tomorrow to check the SPL reading in my listening room (measures 14x12 - concrete floors).

So far, I have not found anything wrong with the performance of the sub. Not surprising, it easily crushed anything my HSU STF-2 was outputting. But that's not a real fair comparison. $1000>$349 (18" vs 10").

More comments to follow...
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post #5494 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

John H,

Are those SPL numbers ONLY for the subwoofer, or with all speakers on?

-Chad

Those are with just the subwoofer/s playing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishal View Post

John -

When testing max output for a subwoofer, MV shouldn't really matter as everyone has their subs calibrated differently. Instead, run the test with the subwoofer only and continue to raise the volume until you get no more usable output. The fact that the Dragon and the DD-18 are outputting similar numbers probably means that neither is breathing too hard at those levels.

Lets say I install my duel Conquests back in front. If I play just the Conquests under the same conditions will my numbers still be similar with the Skidoosh?

I will try and take some more measurements later on today. Like I mentioned before I am operating from a wheelchair and I move a little slower than most.

John
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post #5495 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 12:04 PM
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Chad told me that the Dragon's output would be very similar to the PB13 in sealed mode. Looking at Ilkka's numbers @ 2M outdoors, max output, the Ultra comes in at 100.2dbs at 20hz and peaks at 113.4 at 50hz...overall average 20-63hz 109db. I'd think a single Dragon would do better in room, a pair should be awesome and quite a bit higher than John's tests. However, the output difference between the DD18 and Dragon should be fairly small. At a grand, it's an amazing value for an 18" sealed sub.

Also, from the conversation I had, the Dragon is about small, sealed and sound quality. If you want large/ported SPL, then go with the other models.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #5496 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 12:16 PM
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Yeah I think the Dragon is all about sound quality not spl. I asked Chad how my Valor compares to the Dragon, he said the Dragon would have cleaner and better sound quality and ouput would be quite similar and that the Dragon would go a bit deeper due to the 18" driver.
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post #5497 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

Chad told me that the Dragon's output would be very similar to the PB13 in sealed mode. Looking at Ilkka's numbers @ 2M outdoors, max output, the Ultra comes in at 100.2dbs at 20hz and peaks at 113.4 at 50hz...overall average 20-63hz 109db. I'd think a single Dragon would do better in room, a pair should be awesome and quite a bit higher than John's tests. However, the output difference between the DD18 and Dragon should be fairly small. At a grand, it's an amazing value for an 18" sealed sub.

Also, from the conversation I had, the Dragon is about small, sealed and sound quality. If you want large/ported SPL, then go with the other models.

With this knowledge and my past conversations with Chad, I would think the Phoenix will come in 3-4db lower under 40hz than the Dragon. If that is the case, as far as SPL goes, it stomp all over my Hsu 3.3 in ME mode if one goes by Ilkka's numbers.
No one with a Phoenix out there yet, huh

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post #5498 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

With this knowledge and my past conversations with Chad, I would think the Phoenix will come in 3-4db lower under 40hz than the Dragon. If that is the case, as far as SPL goes, it stomp all over my Hsu 3.3 in ME mode if one goes by Ilkka's numbers.
No one with a Phoenix out there yet, huh

I wouldn't be surprised if the Phoenix output is 2X the 3.3 over most of the FR. You can be the first to tell us.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #5499 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

I wouldn't be surprised if the Phoenix output is 2X the 3.3 over most of the FR. You can be the first to tell us.

I bet I will, I may have been the only one to order a Phoenix so far, lol!

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post #5500 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 02:05 PM
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Attachment 137324

ive spent the last 4 hours on home theater shack forums trying to figure out how to do this. the levels look low on this so somethings up with this REW reading. yes i named it 3rd times because ive run it 3 times from start to finish.
LL
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post #5501 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by notoriousmatty View Post

Attachment 137324

ive spent the last 4 hours on home theater shack forums trying to figure out how to do this. the levels look low on this so somethings up with this REW reading. yes i named it 3rd times because ive run it 3 times from start to finish.

Are you running the sweep at 75dbs? Is the sub corner loaded? The rolloff looks about right without room gain, but I'd think you'd get a flatter response with room gain.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #5502 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 02:29 PM
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Attachment 137327

heres one with audyssey turned on.
LL
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post #5503 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

Are you running the sweep at 75dbs? Is the sub corner loaded? The rolloff looks about right without room gain, but I'd think you'd get a flatter response with room gain.

yes. and the sub is in the corner.
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post #5504 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 02:35 PM
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Attachment 137328

heres an audyssey waterfall. The sub is rated at 15hz and anything below that it just gives out on.
LL
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post #5505 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 02:53 PM
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Matty,

Thanks for posting. Something definitely doesn't look right. I didn't plan on learning REW, but I guess I may have to in order to provide some comparative graphs and to get a better idea of how MY particular Dragon is performing.
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post #5506 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by notoriousmatty View Post

Attachment 137327

heres one with audyssey turned on.

That looks pretty sweet except for that spike at 75hz.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #5507 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 03:15 PM
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Any thoughts on how to tame it? Wonder why audyssey didnt pick up on it,
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post #5508 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by notoriousmatty View Post

Attachment 137327

heres one with audyssey turned on.

the graph looks good...very flat to 15hz..

Seize the Day..!
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post #5509 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Thunder-rush View Post

the graph looks good...very flat to 15hz..

i was suprised and thought it looked pretty good too. After 15hz its a different story. Its a shame too because I get my jollies from bass that extends below that. Things like the cloverfield bridge scene, wotw etc. The dragon just doesnt seem capable of reproducing those scenes effectively. My dragon is officially on the market.
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post #5510 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 03:39 PM
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Since you have REW already set up (or know how to), its a good time time change the settings, one at a time, on you AVR and sub controls to see what exactly it does to the sub output.
For starters, set the sub output control (back of Dragon) to 12'o clock, 150 Hz and work from there with the AVR settings (sub level, gain, etc) with Audyessy, without Audyssey etc. Take an REW after each change at the main listening position and note the difference. I did 3 REWs for one setting change to get a jist of the mean effects that one change had. First time REW setup is the hard part, these are the easy and fun stuff.
The graph with Audyssey "on" looked good.

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

$ubwoofer$ and premium mango tree cultivar$

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post #5511 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 03:44 PM
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Try returning it. See what EPIK says.

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

$ubwoofer$ and premium mango tree cultivar$

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post #5512 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notoriousmatty View Post

i was suprised and thought it looked pretty good too. After 15hz its a different story. Its a shame too because I get my jollies from bass that extends below that. Things like the cloverfield bridge scene, wotw etc. The dragon just doesnt seem capable of reproducing those scenes effectively. My dragon is officially on the market.

That looks pretty good and under 15hz is really not necessary. You will be getting 99.99 percent of all the bass on BD and DVD.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by notoriousmatty View Post

i was suprised and thought it looked pretty good too. After 15hz its a different story. Its a shame too because I get my jollies from bass that extends below that. Things like the cloverfield bridge scene, wotw etc. The dragon just doesnt seem capable of reproducing those scenes effectively. My dragon is officially on the market.

if output is good i wouldnt worry about sub 15hz freq.
i really dont think many of us get too much lower with any power, but i might be wrong.
graph with audessey looks good to me, except for the spike. what are your mains crossesed at?
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I bet I will, I may have been the only one to order a Phoenix so far, lol!

Yes, TWICE!
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Yes, TWICE!

Yeah, I just need a man card!

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Originally Posted by warlord260 View Post

if output is good i wouldnt worry about sub 15hz freq.
i really dont think many of us get too much lower with any power, but i might be wrong.
graph with audessey looks good to me, except for the spike. what are your mains crossesed at?



My mains are crossed at 80 but were not on during this test. Subwoofer only. They are large bookshelf speakers and im upgrading to towers next week that ill probably cross at 60
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I have joined the club. I have my Epik Conquest and will set it up tonight or tomorrow. I have one question if I set up the Epik with my Dual MBM-12s. What should I select on the Conquest to enable the onboard XO? I want to be able to adjust the XO on the Conquest. Do I select crossover or LFE? Is anyone else in this forum using mbm-12s with their Epik subs? If so, how does it sound?
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post #5518 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 06:50 PM
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I have joined the club. I have my Epik Conquest and will set it up tonight or tomorrow. I have one question if I set up the Epik with my Dual MBM-12s. What should I select on the Conquest to enable the onboard XO? I want to be able to adjust the XO on the Conquest. Do I select crossover or LFE? Is anyone else in this forum using mbm-12s with their Epik subs? If so, how does it sound?


Got rid of the the HSU sub? I really don't think you even need the MBM's with the Conquest.

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Yeah, I just need a man card!

You've been a great sport, Gov. Can't wait for you to get that thing and enjoy it
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post #5520 of 20368 Old 03-20-2009, 07:03 PM
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I bet I will, I may have been the only one to order a Phoenix so far, lol!

Gov, You are not alone.
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