Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 186 - AVS Forum
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post #5551 of 20368 Old 03-21-2009, 02:37 PM
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It looks like I have a peak at 20hz that my feedback destroyer does not detect. Do u think I would be better off with the antimode 8033? How low does the antimode 8033 go?
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post #5552 of 20368 Old 03-21-2009, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

It looks like I have a peak at 20hz that my feedback destroyer does not detect. Do u think I would be better off with the antimode 8033? How low does the antimode 8033 go?


I have an 8033 and I love it! I am about +/- 4db from 16hz to 80hz with my HSU 3.3. The 8033 is rated to go down to 16hz.
By looking at your graph it looks like you have some mid-bass nulls as well. You may have to crawl for bass.

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post #5553 of 20368 Old 03-21-2009, 03:14 PM
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damn! what is the lowest frequency that intersects 75db line? Looks like a single digit. sweet.

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

$ubwoofer$ and premium mango tree cultivar$

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post #5554 of 20368 Old 03-21-2009, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

It looks like I have a peak at 20hz that my feedback destroyer does not detect. Do u think I would be better off with the antimode 8033? How low does the antimode 8033 go?


As the sound goes lower, it takes more SPL / dB for it to "seem" to be the same volume. This is why many people, including me, like some sort of house curve, or leave the gradual room-based rise from room acoustics. I manually eq'd my response flat (BFD), but left the rise pretty intact below 35~Hz. This leaves more impact for movie bass, while most music doesn't go that low. If it's an extreme rise, you can cut it a little, but you don't necessarily want it perfectly flat to <20Hz.

Leave that 20Hz peak for more impact.


But is your graph you posted before or after eq? You measure with REW, then manually set filters in BFD.

I attached my before measurement, and after eq - with 1/12 octave smoothing. After setting that up, I backed off some of the filters below 35Hz or so a bit, since it seemed to suck a lot of the power out of the low bass. So now there is more energy in the 20Hz range beyond what is shown in this measurement. I just didn't hook it all up to re-measure after I tweaked the filters.

The sub is right behind the couch, set to 70Hz xo in the receiver. These measurements are left/right speaker + sub combined. When you get the speakers playing bass as well, it really changes the response graph.
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post #5555 of 20368 Old 03-21-2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

As the sound goes lower, it takes more SPL / dB for it to "seem" to be the same volume. This is why many people, including me, like some sort of house curve, or leave the gradual room-based rise from room acoustics. I manually eq'd my response flat (BFD), but left the rise pretty intact below 35~Hz. This leaves more impact for movie bass, while most music doesn't go that low. If it's an extreme rise, you can cut it a little, but you don't necessarily want it perfectly flat to <20Hz.

Leave that 20Hz peak for more impact.


But is your graph you posted before or after eq? You measure with REW, then manually set filters in BFD.

I attached my before measurement, and after eq - with 1/12 octave smoothing. After setting that up, I backed off some of the filters below 35Hz or so a bit, since it seemed to suck a lot of the power out of the low bass. So now there is more energy in the 20Hz range beyond what is shown in this measurement. I just didn't hook it all up to re-measure after I tweaked the filters.

The sub is right behind the couch, set to 70Hz xo in the receiver. These measurements are left/right speaker + sub combined. When you get the speakers playing bass as well, it really changes the response graph.

I did not use the BFD yet. Its just the graph after I ran Audyessy.
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post #5556 of 20368 Old 03-21-2009, 03:58 PM
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For all you Conquest owners with kids. Did you guys get a special grille or created one that would protect the driver?
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post #5557 of 20368 Old 03-21-2009, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

For all you Conquest owners with kids. Did you guys get a special grille or created one that would protect the driver?

Duct tape.







Two or three times around the ankles usually works well for me.
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post #5558 of 20368 Old 03-21-2009, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DoingOK View Post

Duct tape.







Two or three times around the ankles usually works well for me.

I prefer to fasten to the walls ,thus providing no skipping into problem areas
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post #5559 of 20368 Old 03-21-2009, 08:04 PM
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I've got a question...

I remember reading in the Audyssey thread that its best to set your subwoofer's gain/volume so that the receiver after running Audyssey sets the subwoofer to +3dB. Is this the proper way OR would it be better to adjust the subwoofer's gain/volume so that the receiver zero's out (0dB) the subwoofer after running Audyssey? I guess I don't quite understand the difference between the subwoofer's gain and the receiver's gain on the subwoofer channel. I'd be very grateful if someone could explain the difference and which scenario about is optimal.

Thanks!

EDIT:

cyberbri,

What subwoofer equalizer are you using? BFD? Antimode? Those graphs are amazing.
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post #5560 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

For all you Conquest owners with kids. Did you guys get a special grille or created one that would protect the driver?

I found a guy( can't find any info on him again) who makes car sub grills that are five aluminum bars that screw into brackets on the sides of the woofer. It protects pretty well. Look on that bay place under subwoofer grills and you'll some that are for 15", 12" and 10". Maybe one of those guys can make you one.
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post #5561 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

I've got a question...

I remember reading in the Audyssey thread that its best to set your subwoofer's gain/volume so that the receiver after running Audyssey sets the subwoofer to +3dB. Is this the proper way OR would it be better to adjust the subwoofer's gain/volume so that the receiver zero's out (0dB) the subwoofer after running Audyssey? I guess I don't quite understand the difference between the subwoofer's gain and the receiver's gain on the subwoofer channel. I'd be very grateful if someone could explain the difference and which scenario about is optimal.



Thanks!

EDIT:

cyberbri,

What subwoofer equalizer are you using? BFD? Antimode? Those graphs are amazing.

I run my sub about 4 db hot. I also set my volume on the sub first so that I am only at about +2 notches on the receivers sub setting.
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post #5562 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

I've got a question...

I remember reading in the Audyssey thread that its best to set your subwoofer's gain/volume so that the receiver after running Audyssey sets the subwoofer to +3dB. Is this the proper way OR would it be better to adjust the subwoofer's gain/volume so that the receiver zero's out (0dB) the subwoofer after running Audyssey? I guess I don't quite understand the difference between the subwoofer's gain and the receiver's gain on the subwoofer channel. I'd be very grateful if someone could explain the difference and which scenario about is optimal.

Thanks!

EDIT:

cyberbri,

What subwoofer equalizer are you using? BFD? Antimode? Those graphs are amazing.

receiver trim should be at about -5. this will give you room to turn it up, without sending a clipped signal to the sub. the best way to do this is to use test tone to set sub at 75 db, before running audessy.
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post #5563 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 08:06 AM
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warlord,

Where did you read that? Why would the Audyssey thread recommend +3dB if thats the case?

Thanks.
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post #5564 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

warlord,

Where did you read that? Why would the Audyssey thread recommend +3dB if thats the case?

Thanks.

Audyssey is simply trying to make your sub balanced with the rest of your system. However, it can only control the receiver subwoofer trim setting. The subwoofer itself has a gain knob that also affects volume. How Audyssey will set the receiver's subwoofer trim is directly correlated to how the gain knob is set on the subwoofer. For example, if the sub's gain is set really low, Audyssey will set it to be higher on the receiver (something like +5). On the other hand, if the sub's gain is set high, Audyssey will end up setting the receiver's subwoofer trim lower to compensate (perhaps -5).

It shouldn't matter too much how these are both set except for a couple of reasons. First, if your sub's amp is set to "auto on" and the receiver's subwoofer trim is set very low, sometimes the bass signal isn't strong enough for the subwoofer to "wake up" or recognize the signal. Second, if the receiver's subwoofer trim is set too high (+10, for example), the signal being sent from the receiver can be clipped, as warlord260 said. This is not ideal. As long as your subwoofer trim is somewhere around "0" you should be ok. I think +3 is close enough that you shouldn't run into any problems.

I'm not sure why people on the Audyssey thread recommend +3 unless they're trying to be sure that the auto on circuit in the sub gets triggered. Again, I'd assume your setting is just fine. I wouldn't worry about it.
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post #5565 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 08:34 AM
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lakersfan,

What's your favorite test music for your subs?
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post #5566 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

lakersfan,

What's your favorite test music for your subs?

Depends what I'm testing. If I'm just looking to see how low my subs can get, car tester tracks by Bassotronics, Bass Mekanik, etc, are good (though I wouldn't just listen to that type of music for very long).

In terms of music I actually enjoy that is a good test for a subwoofer, I really like Dream Theater. The drummer and bassist are both extremely talented and the staccato bass notes and double kick drum in many of their songs songs are a true test of a subwoofer's transient response. If your sub has bloat or overhang, you'll know it. I've found their DVD concerts to sound quite good and have a lot of punch in the bass.
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post #5567 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 09:02 AM
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Guys,

I don't have the cables to run REW or any of that.. I wish I did, but I just don't want to go out and spend anymore money just to get some graphs. All I can say is watching War of the Worlds is such a visceral experience now. I just wish the picture quality matched the audio quality... I forgot how bad DVDs actually look!

I think I'm over with playing test music. Test movies are where it's at!
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post #5568 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

warlord,

Where did you read that? Why would the Audyssey thread recommend +3dB if thats the case?

Thanks.

i have never heard that said anywhere before. and i do read audessy thread, just not too much anymore.
there is less chance to send a clipped output to the sub in the minus range.
you dont want too low for the auto on feature will not engage. we all like to run hot. so setting at -5 allows us to turn it up a little when we want and still not send a clipped signal.
if you set it at + 3, and turn it up 3 you would be at +6, that is something you do not want. a clipped signal is not good for your sub, or receiver.
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post #5569 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

lakersfan,

What's your favorite test music for your subs?

i always use ac/dc beating around the bush, for my crawl test. i turn off the mains, and it seems to work for me.
but i am old school, just cant stand any of that rap stuff. it all seems to be recorded way to hot on the bass. to hard for me to get the system too sound natural.
also like the drum beats in the latin music, higher bas freq., though.
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post #5570 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

cyberbri,

What subwoofer equalizer are you using? BFD? Antimode? Those graphs are amazing.


I use a BFD, set manually using REW as a guide. I've heard the Anti-mode is very good, possibly as good as doing it with BFD manually.
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post #5571 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 01:54 PM
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How do you know the signal is clipped on a particular receiver at +6dB? Also, if its set a +3dB what's stopping me from just SLIGHTLY turning up the gain after the fact on the subwoofer? From what I gather it's better to turn up the gain on the actual subwoofer then in the AVR anyhow. So since I got lazy and didn't want to re-run Audyssey I just left it at +3dB in the receiver and then slightly turned up the gain on the subwoofer. Which technically probably lowered the subwoofer to about 0dB if I were to re-run Audyssey.. though I don't know if thats true or not because I guess there are probably other variables I'm not even aware of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warlord260 View Post

i have never heard that said anywhere before. and i do read audessy thread, just not too much anymore.
there is less chance to send a clipped output to the sub in the minus range.
you dont want too low for the auto on feature will not engage. we all like to run hot. so setting at -5 allows us to turn it up a little when we want and still not send a clipped signal.
if you set it at + 3, and turn it up 3 you would be at +6, that is something you do not want. a clipped signal is not good for your sub, or receiver.

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post #5572 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

How do you know the signal is clipped on a particular receiver at +6dB? Also, if its set a +3dB what's stopping me from just SLIGHTLY turning up the gain after the fact on the subwoofer? From what I gather it's better to turn up the gain on the actual subwoofer then in the AVR anyhow. So since I got lazy and didn't want to re-run Audyssey I just left it at +3dB in the receiver and then slightly turned up the gain on the subwoofer. Which technically probably lowered the subwoofer to about 0dB if I were to re-run Audyssey.. though I don't know if thats true or not because I guess there are probably other variables I'm not even aware of.

clipped output is a overdriven signal. less chance of doing it if it is not in the plus numbers. if you turn the sub up at the receiver you have more of a fine tuning, 1 db increments. also it is easier to do at listening position with remote. turning up gain at the sub, basicly you will have no idea how much it went up at listening position. if you turn one up the other doesnt go down unless you turn it down. do you have a spl meter? it is a must. even after you run audessy, you must check speaker, and sub levels. they are usually off a few db's.
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post #5573 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 04:50 PM
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Do u really need a mbm-12 when u have a epik conquest?
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post #5574 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 04:56 PM
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bori,

Any subjective impressions of the Conquest yet? I know it's not perfectly dialed in and EQ'd yet, but how is it compared to your previous subs?
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post #5575 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warlord260 View Post

clipped output is a overdriven signal. less chance of doing it if it is not in the plus numbers. if you turn the sub up at the receiver you have more of a fine tuning, 1 db increments. also it is easier to do at listening position with remote. turning up gain at the sub, basicly you will have no idea how much it went up at listening position. if you turn one up the other doesnt go down unless you turn it down. do you have a spl meter? it is a must. even after you run audessy, you must check speaker, and sub levels. they are usually off a few db's.

After calibrating my system with Audyssey all the speaker levels read 72 dB on my SPL meter. Even though they read 3dB low they all read low by the same amount.

So an SPL meter is more accurate setting the speaker levels after Audyssey is run? What about setting the subwoofer with the fluctuating needle?

John
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post #5576 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 05:16 PM
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warlord,

I don't mean to sound like a jerk and I appreciate your explaining things, but the below information I knew. What I was trying to figure out is how do you know if the signal is clipped at a certain setting on the receiver. I meam obviously I'd never adjust the gain on the subwoofer so that the receiver had to be at +12dB on the subwoofer channel. But how can you say that +6dB on the receiver (especially a good one) is going to necessarily output a clipped signal? I understand that you'd rather have more control at the remote than the back of the sub, trust me I understand.. b/c its so hard to get to the back of my Dragon!!

I do have an SPL meter, on loan from Radio Shack .. I say loan, because I doubt I'll want to keep it much longer. If I wanted one to keep I'd probably get something with a bit more usable frequency range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warlord260 View Post

clipped output is a overdriven signal. less chance of doing it if it is not in the plus numbers. if you turn the sub up at the receiver you have more of a fine tuning, 1 db increments. also it is easier to do at listening position with remote. turning up gain at the sub, basicly you will have no idea how much it went up at listening position. if you turn one up the other doesnt go down unless you turn it down. do you have a spl meter? it is a must. even after you run audessy, you must check speaker, and sub levels. they are usually off a few db's.

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post #5577 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 05:33 PM
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Lalakersfan,

I do not have it dialed in yet or eq'ed but I am very impressed with it's performance. It just seem that there isn't any scene that will choke up the conquest. I have tried scenes from Kung fu panda,wow,and cloverfield and it handles them with ease. That is why I question the need for the mbm-12.
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post #5578 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 05:39 PM
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I always make it a habit that I never go higher than 0db in the receiver SW trim. I usually like to be at -5db and adjust the gain on the SW from there. Even though you you probably be fine at +6db on a SW receiver trim 99 percent of the time, if you happen to be playing WOTW at high SPL's, you could be sending a clipped signal to the SW during huge dynamic peaks in that movie. The movie is recorded hot to being with. Then the huge dynamic peak (remember recorded hot) is sent and then the receiver trim is at +6db. By the time it reaches you SW it could be clipped because of all the db boosting. Your SW will then play a clipped signal.
This is the reason why a lot of use like to run in the minus db level for the SW receiver trim

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post #5579 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

Lalakersfan,

I do not have it dialed in yet or eq'ed but I am very impressed with it's performance. It just seem that there isn't any scene that will choke up the conquest. I have tried scenes from Kung fu panda,wow,and cloverfield and it handles them with ease. That is why I question the need for the mbm-12.


I personally think the MBM's are a waste of money if you have a decent SW that has good mid-bass output.
Read this and you decide.....http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ghlight=mbm-12

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post #5580 of 20368 Old 03-22-2009, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmike View Post

warlord,

I don't mean to sound like a jerk and I appreciate your explaining things, but the below information I knew. What I was trying to figure out is how do you know if the signal is clipped at a certain setting on the receiver. I meam obviously I'd never adjust the gain on the subwoofer so that the receiver had to be at +12dB on the subwoofer channel. But how can you say that +6dB on the receiver (especially a good one) is going to necessarily output a clipped signal? I understand that you'd rather have more control at the remote than the back of the sub, trust me I understand.. b/c its so hard to get to the back of my Dragon!!

I do have an SPL meter, on loan from Radio Shack .. I say loan, because I doubt I'll want to keep it much longer. If I wanted one to keep I'd probably get something with a bit more usable frequency range.

as gov stated: you need head room for dynamic peaks. how does one know when the signal is being clipped? what does it sound like? personally i do not know for i dont think i ever have. i do know that it will fry things, and it is best to never do.
so what are the impressions on the dragon? did i miss that part, or are you still dialing it in?
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