Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 230 - AVS Forum
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post #6871 of 20380 Old 05-06-2009, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Yes, Ron you are correct that will tell for sure. Is there an easy way to do that with taking turning that monster over, plugging the ports, and then repositioning it? LOL

For a test, just flip it on it's side, stuff some socks (tightly) into the ports, put it right side up and see how it goes. If you like the sound, then pickup some custom foam plugs later. Don't lose your socks .

BTW, when playing tones, my room gets excited at 35-36hz and 18hz. It sounds fluttery, but it's not coming from the sub. It's very apparent it's the room.

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post #6872 of 20380 Old 05-06-2009, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by clarkeven View Post

Factor, I tell ya what, my room is 2300 cubic feet sealed up tight. I never run my receiver any higher than -10 since that is about the sweet spot, not to loud and not to soft and it fills the room with awesome sound, the sub pressurizes the room. I had a guy come over with his family and he was say how he paid $10,000.00 for his speakers. Well before he came down to listen to the system his younger son about 10 and his wife were down there with my son watching a movie. The son told the mom when the movie was over, "this sounds better than our movie theater" and the mom said, "don't tell your father that" I just smiled and said nothing, then the Dad came in for a demo and was in disbelief.

Now I know my speakers can't spank a $10,000.00 set of speakers but for the price I paid, and the astonished look on peoples faces is priceless...

Not that I'm trying to sway you into buying the speakers, just my 2 cents, in my little movie theater.

Nice Clark I appreciate the input and that will be on the top of my to get list and if I didnt already have my Paradigms that I truly love to they would of been hanging out in my main HT . Those SVS speakers sound like they're worthy for sure
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post #6873 of 20380 Old 05-06-2009, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Re: The Phoenix, I'd very much recommend sitting the sub on a large tile or slab. This sub has an unusual design where the downward ports (boundary-loaded ports) and the surface beneath the sub have a deliberate synergy. If that relationship between the ports and the boundary are changed, the tuning is also changed. This is the key to stuffing such a large driver in a relatively small box and yet being able to tune the sub relatively low. In my opinion, for the sub to play exactly as designed, it should sit on a hard surface without altering the intended distance from that surface.

Ok, so far I cannot tell any difference between having the sub slightly elevated on the carpeting or with the granite underneath it. My frequency response is basically the same, and no audible difference to my ears.
That said, I think that the Phoenix does benefit from a little lift if you have medium to long carpet. I did try it briefly on just the carpet with no lift at all, and although it was not a big difference, I preferred it is lifted with the blocks.
I am keeping it on the piece of granite from now on just because I have it, and because it allows optimal breathing room for the ports that way.
For everyone that is going to place the Phoenix on carpeting, don't worry, Chad has obviously designed it for all placement applications

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post #6874 of 20380 Old 05-06-2009, 09:07 PM
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What are you guys using to plug the ports on the Phoenix?
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post #6875 of 20380 Old 05-06-2009, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

I would not call this an issue at this point. That song is extremely demanding on one single subwoofer, and from what I have read, it causes port noise on a lot of the best subs out there.

Again, I have NOT experienced any audible port noise when watching movies or other music. And I sometimes listen very loud

Gov,

It is interesting you called it a flutter. Look at the excerpt below from Sound and Vision magazine reviewing a VTF sub.


Saint-Saens, Organ Symphony (second movement) This is a deceptively simple piece of music, with pianissimo strings playing a simple melody and the organ exhaling a few sustained pedal tones. The problem is that those pedal notes are in the bottom octave, reaching all the way down to 16 Hz. Most subwoofers simply can't grasp that, so they fake it with upper harmonics. Only a few can tackle the lowest octave and play it loud enough so you can feel the air in your listening room (like the air in the organ loft) flutter.

I listened to the same track with my Phoenix and it feels like a flutter in my ear drums. I didn't notice any port chuffing from my listening position 12 feet away at a corrected SPL level of about 91dB.
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post #6876 of 20380 Old 05-06-2009, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by stepyourgameup View Post

They would actually have to split the LFE into left and right channels. So if an explosion or gunshot happened on the right side of the screen then it would only play on the right sub.

Some people do "stereo" subs by running their mains as large, and then running the speaker outs on the receiver to the sub, then to the speakers. That way one sub handles the right side and the other handles the left.

Yes, LFE is a single channel, but there can be sound down to ~20Hz being sent to any of the channels (which is why most of the time it's best not to run speakers as Large). So you could get directional bass that is encoded in the material.

Some people even run a sub up front, and run a sub in the back of the room hooked to the rear speakers, for bass coming from them (like the lightning strike scene in War of the Worlds).
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post #6877 of 20380 Old 05-06-2009, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy joe divola View Post

Gov,

It is interesting you called it a flutter. Look at the excerpt below from Sound and Vision magazine reviewing a VTF sub.


Saint-Saens, Organ Symphony (second movement) This is a deceptively simple piece of music, with pianissimo strings playing a simple melody and the organ exhaling a few sustained pedal tones. The problem is that those pedal notes are in the bottom octave, reaching all the way down to 16 Hz. Most subwoofers simply can't grasp that, so they fake it with upper harmonics. Only a few can tackle the lowest octave and play it loud enough so you can feel the air in your listening room (like the air in the organ loft) flutter.

I listened to the same track with my Phoenix and it feels like a flutter in my ear drums. I didn't notice any port chuffing from my listening position 12 feet away at a corrected SPL level of about 91dB.


What about the ticking/rattling sound I am getting which sounds like it is coming from inside the subwoofer? Maybe this is the flutter sound? Port noise? It is really not a big deal, but it really has me curious
It is the strongest the last 30 seconds of the song.

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post #6878 of 20380 Old 05-06-2009, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy joe divola View Post

Gov,

It is interesting you called it a flutter. Look at the excerpt below from Sound and Vision magazine reviewing a VTF sub.


Saint-Saens, Organ Symphony (second movement) This is a deceptively simple piece of music, with pianissimo strings playing a simple melody and the organ exhaling a few sustained pedal tones. The problem is that those pedal notes are in the bottom octave, reaching all the way down to 16 Hz. Most subwoofers simply can't grasp that, so they fake it with upper harmonics. Only a few can tackle the lowest octave and play it loud enough so you can feel the air in your listening room (like the air in the organ loft) flutter.

I listened to the same track with my Phoenix and it feels like a flutter in my ear drums. I didn't notice any port chuffing from my listening position 12 feet away at a corrected SPL level of about 91dB.

91dbs @ 16hz isn't likely to bother a Phoenix I wouldn't think. Gov was running at -10 which might be a bit louder and we don't know how hot he's calibrated. Gov, you should put a meter on it and find out what's what at 3M for comparison.

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post #6879 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 08:14 AM
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With just the subwoofer playing from 3M @ 91dB I am getting the noise from that song. Ticking, rattling, chuffing, clicking. I really don't know what to call it.

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post #6880 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 08:48 AM
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I tried some test tones to see exactly where I am getting the noises at. Any test tone over 20hz zero noise no matter how loud I play them. The 16hz tone is the worst, with the 18hz a little better, and the 20hz its still there, but much better. After that, nothing.
When the noises begin I notice that the subwoofer is shaking quite a bit, but stays in its place. Could this be the port tubes inside the cabinet rattling?

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post #6881 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 09:04 AM
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It should have rattled when the sub was sealed.
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post #6882 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy joe divola View Post

Gov,

It is interesting you called it a flutter. Look at the excerpt below from Sound and Vision magazine reviewing a VTF sub.


Saint-Saens, Organ Symphony (second movement) This is a deceptively simple piece of music, with pianissimo strings playing a simple melody and the organ exhaling a few sustained pedal tones. The problem is that those pedal notes are in the bottom octave, reaching all the way down to 16 Hz. Most subwoofers simply can't grasp that, so they fake it with upper harmonics. Only a few can tackle the lowest octave and play it loud enough so you can feel the air in your listening room (like the air in the organ loft) flutter.

I listened to the same track with my Phoenix and it feels like a flutter in my ear drums. I didn't notice any port chuffing from my listening position 12 feet away at a corrected SPL level of about 91dB.

BTW, anyone who wants a copy of this song, PM me with your e-mail address and I will send it to you

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post #6883 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Could this be the port tubes inside the cabinet rattling?

Are the port tubes braced inside the cabinet?

Play the tones and see if you can use your hand to keep the tubes from shaking.

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post #6884 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Are the port tubes braced inside the cabinet?

Play the tones and see if you can use your hand to keep the tubes from shaking.

They must be braced because even if I put most of my weight on the cabinet, It still rattles from inside.

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post #6885 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

They must be braced because even if I put most of my weight on the cabinet, It still rattles from inside.

That doesn't mean the tube is braced. The tube can shake independently if not braced to the cabinet.

The noises(other than the chuffing) can also be coming from the driver motor/suspension.

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post #6886 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 10:10 AM
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Well, I do know my HSU 3.3 did this as well with this track.

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post #6887 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Well, I do know my HSU 3.3 did this as well with this track.

Do you remember at what output level the Hsu would begin to make bad noises on this track? And was this in max output or max extension mode?
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post #6888 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Well, I do know my HSU 3.3 did this as well with this track.

The chuffing and the ticking/rattling? When I had my 3.3, I made it chuff, but never heard it tick or rattle, but I also never made it bottom like you did as well.

If that is the case, what has happen to me before is I thought my sub was making unusual sounds, I was pulling my hair out, and figured out it was a fixture near the sub that was the source.

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post #6889 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

I tried some test tones to see exactly where I am getting the noises at. Any test tone over 20hz zero noise no matter how loud I play them. The 16hz tone is the worst, with the 18hz a little better, and the 20hz its still there, but much better. After that, nothing.
When the noises begin I notice that the subwoofer is shaking quite a bit, but stays in its place. Could this be the port tubes inside the cabinet rattling?

Gov,

I get the same ticking noises (but no chuffing) below 20hz and the sub is vibrating the entire room, but the ticking noise is coming from inside the sub enclosure. The ticking/clanking is really bad with 14hz test tone. Reaching underneath the sub and holding part of the flare and the actual port helped very little. It is really difficult to brace the port with my hands since the sub is down firing.
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post #6890 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy joe divola View Post

Gov,

I get the same ticking noises (but no chuffing) below 20hz and the sub is vibrating the entire room, but the ticking noise is coming from inside the sub enclosure. The ticking/clanking is really bad with 14hz test tone. Reaching underneath the sub and holding part of the flare and the actual port helped very little. It is really difficult to brace the port with my hands since the sub is down firing.

Ok...you are getting exactly what I am then. If it is not chuffing, what the hell is this then? I know it is not reaching its limits at this point, and I do not hear this with anything else.
Since I was getting this as well with my HSU 3.3, it is not obviously an isolated thing.

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post #6891 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Do you remember at what output level the Hsu would begin to make bad noises on this track? And was this in max output or max extension mode?

It was in ME mode and it was at about the same SPL or a bit sooner than the Phoenix. In MO mode, in my room, the 3.3 could not muster that good of output at 16hz.

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post #6892 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 11:42 AM
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Gov, 91dbs uncorrected at 3M on a 16hz fundamental has got to be pretty demanding. Corrected it's 100.3dbs. crazyjoe's measurements were corrected 91dbs I believe. The reason you're getting more distress is that you're probably at the sub's limits or close to it.

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post #6893 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

Gov, 91dbs uncorrected at 3M on a 16hz fundamental has got to be pretty demanding. Corrected it's 100.3dbs. crazyjoe's measurements were corrected 91dbs I believe. The reason you're getting more distress is that you're probably at the sub's limits or close to it.

I was thinking the same thing; unless he has a lot of room gain at 16hz, 91dB at 3M is a lot of output, especially considering the two 4" ports are doing just about all of the heavy lifting at that frequency with the Phoenix. It would make sense if the Hsu 3.3 ran into compression and/or chuffing at 16hz at a slightly lower level because the Hsu only has a single 4" port in ME mode while the Phoenix has two 4" ports, so the Phoenix should be able to get a bit louder around tuning before making weird sounds.

IIRC Gov's room is pretty good size (I want to say something like 4,000-5,000 cubic feet, but I'm not sure). I wouldn't be surprised if a single Phoenix would struggle to fill that room at high output levels with <20hz frequencies.
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post #6894 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 12:04 PM
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To clarify, I was also around 91dB corrected from 12 feet away. Does anyone want to take a guess as to what the rattling is? I am certain it is not bottoming out the driver because I know what that sounds like.
LaLakerfan, My room is a little over 4000 cu ft

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post #6895 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 03:43 PM
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Just got my updated grill. It clears the subwoofer. It's actually a little thinner.

Edit: I just moved the sub to another location and it's night and day. Bass is felt even better at listening position.
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post #6896 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 04:13 PM
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Glad to hear the new Dragon grill covers work

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post #6897 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

Just got my updated grill. It clears the subwoofer. It's actually a little thinner.

Edit: I just moved the sub to another location and it's night and day. Bass is felt even better at listening position.

Nice !!! glad it fits good and you found your rooms sweet spot
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post #6898 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Ok...you are getting exactly what I am then. If it is not chuffing, what the hell is this then? I know it is not reaching its limits at this point, and I do not hear this with anything else.
Since I was getting this as well with my HSU 3.3, it is not obviously an isolated thing.

No offense but you guys are freaking me out. My Phoenix is supposed to be shipped in the next couple days and I don't want to receive a product that is going to be giving me ticking and rattling noises from inside the box when it's not supposed to. Are you guys only getting them with test tones and that song you like Gov, or is it with other content like movies as well??
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post #6899 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by WestsideHT View Post

No offense but you guys are freaking me out. My Phoenix is supposed to be shipped in the next couple days and I don't want to receive a product that is going to be giving me ticking and rattling noises from inside the box when it's not supposed to. Are you guys only getting them with test tones and that song you like Gov, or is it with other content like movies as well??

Its okay, don't panic! It is basically on stuff 20hz and under at high SPL's. Even then, it is not that noticable unless you are listening to just the subwoofer. So, for example, with WOTW at -8dB MV from my listening postition, I cannot hear anything like that. With sine waves (which pipe organs basically are) you can hear it 20hz and under.
Have no fear, the Phoenix is a great sub

I am hoping Chad chimes in on this and comments soon!

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
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post #6900 of 20380 Old 05-07-2009, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Its okay, don't panic! It is basically on stuff 20hz and under at high SPL's. Even then, it is not that noticable unless you are listening to just the subwoofer. So, for example, with WOTW at -8dB MV from my listening postition, I cannot hear anything like that. With sine waves (which pipe organs basically are) you can hear it 20hz and under.
Have no fear, the Phoenix is a great sub

I am hoping Chad chimes in on this and comments soon!

Thanks, and hopefully Chad will give us some insight.
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