Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 268 - AVS Forum
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post #8011 of 20423 Old 07-01-2009, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by GPowered View Post

Very Interesting. I have a question as I am a little confused though. I have Audyssey Multi-EQ and Dynamic EQ (basically the same thing except it helps at lower volumes). It is my understanding that Audyssey sets levels, distance, type (x-over setting although this is generally more of a personal preference), AND helps to smooth out peaks and dips, etc.

Since you are running Anti-mode, what is the point of using Audyssey in addition to it? Anti-mode will smooth out FR and the levels, type, distance, etc. could be set with an RS Meter. Let me know because I was under the impression that Audyssey may not do that good of a job smoothing things. Is the Anti-mode worth the investment if I have Audyssey?

I have received good results regarding Audyssey MultEQ XT and my Tower/Dynasty and others will tell you that you don't need Anti-Mode with MEQXT. The best way to tell how your FR looks is with something like REW, which will show you a graph of your nulls and peaks. You can just use Anti-mode and disable Audyssey, but Anti-mode will do nothing for higher freqs. So, many people who have AM use Audyssey in combination.

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post #8012 of 20423 Old 07-01-2009, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by GPowered View Post

Very Interesting. I have a question as I am a little confused though. I have Audyssey Multi-EQ and Dynamic EQ (basically the same thing except it helps at lower volumes). It is my understanding that Audyssey sets levels, distance, type (x-over setting although this is generally more of a personal preference), AND helps to smooth out peaks and dips, etc.

Since you are running Anti-mode, what is the point of using Audyssey in addition to it? Anti-mode will smooth out FR and the levels, type, distance, etc. could be set with an RS Meter. Let me know because I was under the impression that Audyssey may not do that good of a job smoothing things. Is the Anti-mode worth the investment if I have Audyssey?

The Anti-Mode will not cover your speakers, only the sub. Audyssey Multi-EQ is hit or miss on subs and can still benefit from an external EQ. In my setup Audyssey had to be seriously massaged to not neuter my sub but still missed most of the room induced peaks. I verified this through A LOT of time with REW. If you use a combination of an external sub EQ you can have that EQ focus on the sub's response (and in some cases such as the Anti-Mode and SVS AS-EQ1 it will also work on the Z-domain) and then you will run Audyssey Multi-EQ to adjust your mains.

External sub EQ's add a digital delay that Audyssey reads and compensates for by adding a distance equivalent in the settings.

The Z-domain (time) controls are some of the best features of Audyssey and equipment like the Anti-Mode. These set them apart from more rudimentary parametric EQ systems.

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post #8013 of 20423 Old 07-02-2009, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

The Anti-Mode will not cover your speakers, only the sub. Audyssey Multi-EQ is hit or miss on subs and can still benefit from an external EQ. In my setup Audyssey had to be seriously massaged to not neuter my sub but still missed most of the room induced peaks. I verified this through A LOT of time with REW. If you use a combination of an external sub EQ you can have that EQ focus on the sub's response (and in some cases such as the Anti-Mode and SVS AS-EQ1 it will also work on the Z-domain) and then you will run Audyssey Multi-EQ to adjust your mains.

External sub EQ's add a digital delay that Audyssey reads and compensates for by adding a distance equivalent in the settings.

The Z-domain (time) controls are some of the best features of Audyssey and equipment like the Anti-Mode. These set them apart from more rudimentary parametric EQ systems.

Can running MultEQ XT after another sub eq(PBK-1 in my case) have a possible negative/cancellation effect on the results of the initial sub only eq? I'm looking to add the PBK-1 kit to my Sub 12, but only if I can use it successfully in conjunction with my 3808's MultEQ XT. I'm hoping that using the two eq's together will provide even better results. Anyone have any experience using this combination, or MultEQ XT with some other eq?

Sorry, I know this is off topic, but since it came up...
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post #8014 of 20423 Old 07-02-2009, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DoubleATheater View Post

I figured that as well, that's why I haven't shot them an email. I'd way rather buy a second Phoenix than build my own sub. The wife just won't let me spend that kind of money again yet. I'll probably just wait and save some more and see if I can change her mind.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to rain on your parade. Chad is a great guy and I think there's a chance that if you explained your situation he might give some suggestions on what you could build that might complement the Phoenix. I just don't think he'll help you clone it .

Chad does seem to be pretty secretive about his subs' specs (not that it's a bad thing...it's just what is). IIRC he had requested that people not remove and take pictures of their drivers and spread them online. This might have been at the very outset, though, when his products were still "under the radar". Since he's taken pictures of the new drivers and posted them on Epik's website, he might not have things as "under wraps" as they were before.

Just thinking out loud, I think the only ID company I've seen publicly discuss DIY or specific use of their components in DIY projects was SVS. As new revisions of drivers (such as the Plus line: 12.1, 12.2, 12.3) were released, users could upgrade their old subs to the newer drivers. SVS encouraged those who upgraded drivers to use their old drivers in their own projects. However, SVS still claimed that they could not give any schematics or designs to potential DIYers using their drivers. Furthermore, I don't remember ever seeing any actual T/S parameters listed.
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post #8015 of 20423 Old 07-02-2009, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to rain on your parade. Chad is a great guy and I think there's a chance that if you explained your situation he might give some suggestions on what you could build that might complement the Phoenix. I just don't think he'll help you clone it .

Chad does seem to be pretty secretive about his subs' specs (not that it's a bad thing...it's just what is). IIRC he had requested that people not remove and take pictures of their drivers and spread them online. This might have been at the very outset, though, when his products were still "under the radar". Since he's taken pictures of the new drivers and posted them on Epik's website, he might not have things as "under wraps" as they were before.

Just thinking out loud, I think the only ID company I've seen publicly discuss DIY or specific use of their components in DIY projects was SVS. As new revisions of drivers (such as the Plus line: 12.1, 12.2, 12.3) were released, users could upgrade their old subs to the newer drivers. SVS encouraged those who upgraded drivers to use their old drivers in their own projects. However, SVS still claimed that they could not give any schematics or designs to potential DIYers using their drivers. Furthermore, I don't remember ever seeing any actual T/S parameters listed.

You're not raining on my parade at all. It's true that asking Chad for T/S would probably be like asking KFC for their recipe for the special herbs and spices that go on their chicken. I'll see how I can handle the wife, if push comes to shove maybe there is something I can compliment the Phoenix with. Not really a clone but a mate to make her sound just ask beautiful without taking away from it.
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post #8016 of 20423 Old 07-02-2009, 06:42 AM
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That Cherry finish is rather attractive, hmmm !!

yeah i think she finish it
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post #8017 of 20423 Old 07-02-2009, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by GPowered View Post

Very Interesting. I have a question as I am a little confused though. I have Audyssey Multi-EQ and Dynamic EQ (basically the same thing except it helps at lower volumes). It is my understanding that Audyssey sets levels, distance, type (x-over setting although this is generally more of a personal preference), AND helps to smooth out peaks and dips, etc.

Since you are running Anti-mode, what is the point of using Audyssey in addition to it? Anti-mode will smooth out FR and the levels, type, distance, etc. could be set with an RS Meter. Let me know because I was under the impression that Audyssey may not do that good of a job smoothing things. Is the Anti-mode worth the investment if I have Audyssey?

I have Audyssey 2EQ which is their "crippled" version. It will only take three measurements and it will NOT set filters on the sub. I imagine that wherever the X-over is set it will not EQ below that point.

From the Audessey site:
2EQ
2EQ measures 3 room positions, uses a basic resolution filter for the satellites and does not apply a filter to the subwoofers.


I didn't know that I had this limitation with Audessey. I had charted my room response with Audessey enganged and then disengaged and the lines were identical. I couldn't figure out why. A few days ago I was reading up on Audessey and found that the 2EQ version does not affect the sub region.

My graph proved that out.

So for me the AntiMode was a home run. It picks up where the Audessey left off. That coupled with my "anything but flat" room response and very limited sub placement issues, probably made me the best candidate for the AntiMode.

Those starting out with fairly flat responses, I have read, benefit less.

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post #8018 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 05:38 AM
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Some pics of the Valor with new Epik puffy sticker.
LL
LL
LL
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post #8019 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dboff01 View Post

Some pics of the Valor with new Epik puffy sticker.

nice!

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post #8020 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 07:54 AM
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nice!

Ditto!
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post #8021 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

The Dragon is smaller, weight, and goes to 20hz. I think the finish on the Dragon is better. Not a fan of the silver cone. The balanced and unbalanced inputs. If that matters to you. Relevative newly designed sub. More to date I guess. Those are the reason's why I picked the Dragon. Although the ED has more wattage at 1300w rms.

I'm sure with an EQ the eD would perform 20hz quite well. It has enough wattage to EQ it without a problem.
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post #8022 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 08:54 AM
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Some pics of the Valor with new Epik puffy sticker.

Beautiful
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post #8023 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 12:51 PM
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late last night i changed the layout of my whole room to make things more symmetrical and OMG the difference overall was very drastic. each speaker is now the same exact distance from the side walls and the wall behind them. sounds so much better, imaging has greatly improved, frequency response is much smoother now. my sub just happens to now be in a 1/3rd increment from the left side wall, i read that it would make a difference and it definitely did. i had to turn the sub gain down a little bit, and frequency response of the sub was greatly improved. extends a hair deeper, rolls off a hair shallower initially and just overall is much smoother from one end to the other.

today i had the house to myself for a couple hours and did some very loud critical listening. demo'd a whole bunch of different music and everything sounded great. i cannot believe the slam this single Sentinel now has. i can really feel it in my chest now. it's pretty F'in sweet. i guess proper placement really is the key followed by some slight EQ and phase adjustment. i was thinking that i may need another but this thing is really impressive, i couldn't ask for anything more.

a few pics:










this is the sub and mains together. i have a slight problem at 110hz, not sure if there is something i can do about it or not, but i don't notice it while listening to anything. the sub itself has a natural house curve on it, but when mixed with the mains ends up being relatively flat.

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post #8024 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post

late last night i changed the layout of my whole room to make things more symmetrical and OMG the difference overall was very drastic. each speaker is now the same exact distance from the side walls and the wall behind them. sounds so much better, imaging has greatly improved, frequency response is much smoother now. my sub just happens to now be in a 1/3rd increment from the left side wall, i read that it would make a difference and it definitely did. i had to turn the sub gain down a little bit, and frequency response of the sub was greatly improved. extends a hair deeper, rolls off a hair shallower initially and just overall is much smoother from one end to the other.

today i had the house to myself for a couple hours and did some very loud critical listening. demo'd a whole bunch of different music and everything sounded great. i cannot believe the slam this single Sentinel now has. i can really feel it in my chest now. it's pretty F'in sweet. i guess proper placement really is the key followed by some slight EQ and phase adjustment. i was thinking that i may need another but this thing is really impressive, i couldn't ask for anything more.

Now for some room treatments.

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post #8025 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stepyourgameup View Post

Now for some room treatments.

yup, i'm looking into that now. that's on my list, right after i find a job.

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post #8026 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post

yup, i'm looking into that now. that's on my list, right after i find a job.

That Sentinel would like real nice with the new "Epik" logo on it




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post #8027 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

That Sentinel would like real nice with the new "Epik" logo on it

it might. you got one for me?

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post #8028 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 03:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post

late last night i changed the layout of my whole room to make things more symmetrical and OMG the difference overall was very drastic. each speaker is now the same exact distance from the side walls and the wall behind them. sounds so much better, imaging has greatly improved, frequency response is much smoother now. my sub just happens to now be in a 1/3rd increment from the left side wall, i read that it would make a difference and it definitely did. i had to turn the sub gain down a little bit, and frequency response of the sub was greatly improved. extends a hair deeper, rolls off a hair shallower initially and just overall is much smoother from one end to the other.

today i had the house to myself for a couple hours and did some very loud critical listening. demo'd a whole bunch of different music and everything sounded great. i cannot believe the slam this single Sentinel now has. i can really feel it in my chest now. it's pretty F'in sweet. i guess proper placement really is the key followed by some slight EQ and phase adjustment. i was thinking that i may need another but this thing is really impressive, i couldn't ask for anything more.

Just curious, but why is your sub toed in to the listening position?
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post #8029 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 05:00 PM
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Good News: I sold my old sub just now..

Bad News: I'm subless this weekend

Good News: I'm ordering an Epik in 5 minutes.


-fab5

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Bass, an obsession or addiction?
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post #8030 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LilGator View Post

Just curious, but why is your sub toed in to the listening position?

just is, no reason.

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post #8031 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fab5valentine View Post

Good News: I sold my old sub just now..

Bad News: I'm subless this weekend

Good News: I'm ordering an Epik in 5 minutes.


-fab5

What sub did you sell and what Epik sub did you purchase?
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post #8032 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 05:47 PM
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What sub did you sell and what Epik sub did you purchase?

Sold: SVS PB12+/2 - Sold, I'll miss her..

Ordered: Epik Phoenix, 1st part of a dual set-up.. It would be very nice to have good output from one but 10K CU ft is a lot to ask, but another will be down the road.. SQ I'm looking forward too as well..

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post #8033 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fab5valentine View Post

Good News: I sold my old sub just now..

Bad News: I'm subless this weekend

Good News: I'm ordering an Epik in 5 minutes.


-fab5

PPP on your part. Should have ordered the Phoenix and sold the +2 when it arrived.

I don't lurk as much as I used to and I NEVER listen. Comes from being old and cynical.

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post #8034 of 20423 Old 07-03-2009, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post


this is the sub and mains together. i have a slight problem at 110hz, not sure if there is something i can do about it or not, but i don't notice it while listening to anything. the sub itself has a natural house curve on it, but when mixed with the mains ends up being relatively flat.

Try adjusting your main speaker positions so that the distances (of the speaker driver(s) that reproduce the 110Hz frequency) from the rear wall, side wall, and floor are not the same. It is a lesser known (but common) null effect that typically occurs in the 80 to 160Hz frequency range.

Cheers, Joe
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post #8035 of 20423 Old 07-04-2009, 07:18 AM
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Alrighty then...Its been two weeks since I ordered a dragon....should ship next week I hope..

Do you guys think once my MFW is working again they would work together very well?

One ported sub for LF, and the dragon for mid bass slam?

I have a 2200CF room fairly small.

I am no longer able to watch a movie. I am monitoring a video display with regards to chroma, brightness, contrast and correct pulldown.
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post #8036 of 20423 Old 07-04-2009, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzikal-JRNE View Post

Try adjusting your main speaker positions so that the distances (of the speaker driver(s) that reproduce the 110Hz frequency) from the rear wall, side wall, and floor are not the same. It is a lesser known (but common) null effect that typically occurs in the 80 to 160Hz frequency range.

Cheers, Joe

so you're saying don't have them both symmetrical from the walls? i figured having them symmetrical would help keep the frequency response smoother for both individual speakers.

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post #8037 of 20423 Old 07-04-2009, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post

so you're saying don't have them both symmetrical from the walls? i figured having them symmetrical would help keep the frequency response smoother for both individual speakers.

From the link below:
"For the best soundstage balance the speakers should be equi-distant from the side walls and be a different distance from the rear walls. George Cardas has postulated on a formula for these distances."

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/sp...lacement-guide
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post #8038 of 20423 Old 07-04-2009, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Fins^ View Post

From the link below:
"For the best soundstage balance the speakers should be equi-distant from the side walls and be a different distance from the rear walls. George Cardas has postulated on a formula for these distances."

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/sp...lacement-guide

interesting. i'll give that a read.

just read it and i am a bit confused. does he mean that they should not be the same distance from the back wall as they are to the side wall or does he mean that each main should be a different distance from the back wall? i find it hard to believe that each main should be a different distance from the back wall. so maybe i misunderstood.

i have each main 32 inches from each side wall and the back of the speakers are each 8.5" from the back wall. they are 6.5 feet apart from each other (measured from the inside most part of each speaker). if anything i'm going to guess that null is caused by the 8.5" distance from the back wall.

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post #8039 of 20423 Old 07-04-2009, 08:00 AM
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diff then the side wall distance...but the same for the mains.....

in other words say....two feet from the side, and 2.5 ft from the back wall...

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post #8040 of 20423 Old 07-04-2009, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theelviscerator View Post

diff then the side wall distance...but the same for the mains.....

in other words say....two feet from the side, and 2.5 ft from the back wall...

well then, i am already following that rule. my mains are each 32" from the side wall and then 8.5" from the back wall. i'm guessing i should try moving them farther from the back wall.

anyway.... we're getting off topic here.

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