Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 327 - AVS Forum
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post #9781 of 20368 Old 11-12-2009, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lilmike2069 View Post

The main reason why people suggest crossing over around 80Hz is to prevent the sub from becoming 'localizable'. If I corner load one, it will be somewhat far off to the side and away from the screen (where the action is). I would cross this one around 80Hz to prevent it from being localizable. If I place the other sub between the center speaker and the right tower, then I dont care as much if it is localizable because it is front and center where the action is anyway. Even though it is crossed higher, it should still blend quite well with the mains. But only experimentation will tell the real story, which I will take plenty of pictures and document here! Should be getting them next week.

Also, setting up two subs can be very tricky. You really have to worry about waves canceling each other out. To get an idea of what problems this can cause, when you get your two subs (I noticed you ordered dual sentinels also) place them side by side.... turn one on. Then listen. Then turn the other one on only out of phase (180deg)... the output will actually diminish considerably and sound terrible. This is why most people end up co-locating or spending a LOT of time experimenting. You can get nulls that never existed (because of cancelations, out of phase) and HUGE peaks where the waves are fully in phase.

Maybe I should change my name to Grasshopper Thanks for the input and I really look forward to reading about your setup, along with pictures.
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post #9782 of 20368 Old 11-12-2009, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by lilmike2069 View Post

...I'm just skeptical right now about how a 12" driver can achieve such flat response to 20Hz and only be down a few dB at 17Hz!

It's the ported enclosure . The port is doing the brunt of the work in the frequencies near tuning, not the driver.

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Originally Posted by lilmike2069 View Post

We shall see... I've got REW and SPL meter awaiting their arrival!

Sounds good! I'm interested to see your measurements as well.

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Originally Posted by lilmike2069 View Post

Thanks, I agree... I plan to wait to see how well they perform. I understand that in-room response is going to vary wildly from room to room, but I was just trying to get an idea of whether or not its even truly possible to get such low extension from these 12's in ANY room lol. Its an amazing feat if they are really capable of achieving this.

No guarantees but it seems owners are getting strong output to at least 20hz and usually a little lower with the Sentinel. Unless your room behaves badly, I'd have to guess two Sentinels will be quite satisfying above 17hz or so.
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post #9783 of 20368 Old 11-13-2009, 10:13 AM
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Quick question for the Epik peeps:

How would the Sentinel perform for HT use? I have read how well it does for music.

BTW, I have read (only on forums) that if using a system like Audyssey it is good to have the sub crossed at 120hz to have an overlap with the MAINs.....which most are crossed at 80hz.
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post #9784 of 20368 Old 11-13-2009, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

It's the ported enclosure . The port is doing the brunt of the work in the frequencies near tuning, not the driver.



Sounds good! I'm interested to see your measurements as well.



No guarantees but it seems owners are getting strong output to at least 20hz and usually a little lower with the Sentinel. Unless your room behaves badly, I'd have to guess two Sentinels will be quite satisfying above 17hz or so.

+/-4db from 18hz - 100hz. this is one Sentinel along with my mains. mains and sub are crossed at 80hz. the sub is along the front wall in between the mains. it's a 3rd of the walls length away from the nearest corner. it is also sitting on top of an Auralex GRAMMA. this was taken with REW and an ECM8000. the mic was at my main (center) listening position.



no room is perfect, but it sounds good to me.

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post #9785 of 20368 Old 11-13-2009, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post

no room is perfect, but it sounds good to me.

Are you tcguy85 from the car audio forum?
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post #9786 of 20368 Old 11-13-2009, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lilmike2069 View Post

Are you tcguy85 from the car audio forum?

sure am. lol

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post #9787 of 20368 Old 11-13-2009, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post

sure am. lol

I've read over your opinions and different plots of the sentinel a couple of times. Can you give your impressions of how good/bad the low end extension is for the deep bass that is often hidden in movies? Does it dig deep enough? 18Hz at -4dB seems pretty good, but I'm a little new to the sub 20Hz response and the effect you get from it.
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post #9788 of 20368 Old 11-13-2009, 05:55 PM
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I got my e-mail from Karen today. I'm picking up the Sentinel's Monday after work.
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post #9789 of 20368 Old 11-13-2009, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

I got my e-mail from Karen today. I'm picking up the Sentinel's Monday after work.

cool. still eagerly anticipating mine......
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post #9790 of 20368 Old 11-13-2009, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

I got my e-mail from Karen today. I'm picking up the Sentinel's Monday after work.

Congratulations! tick, tick, tick, tick Post pictures of your setup and your thoughts on their performance... keeps me busy til I get mine
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post #9791 of 20368 Old 11-13-2009, 09:05 PM
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Here's a coupe more on the Sentinel. Placement was about 1/3rd from the left on the front wall between the speakers. Taken with REW and the RS meter. The room was 16x12 closed.

First one is with MultEQ applied, can't remember if Dynamic EQ was engaged or not, probably not from the looks. The second is with no eq, both are with no smoothing.
LL
LL
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post #9792 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike2069 View Post

I've read over your opinions and different plots of the sentinel a couple of times. Can you give your impressions of how good/bad the low end extension is for the deep bass that is often hidden in movies? Does it dig deep enough? 18Hz at -4dB seems pretty good, but I'm a little new to the sub 20Hz response and the effect you get from it.


i'm sure you are aware that our hearing drops off significantly below 20hz or so. so most of the stuff below that point is being felt, but not really heard. the Sentinel has tons of output down to 20hz, so it'll play pretty much as low as we'll hear.

first off i guess i have to admit that this is the best home theater subwoofer i have heard. it has deeper extension than any i've ever heard and can play louder than any i've ever heard. so i may not be the best to ask since i haven't experienced anything better.

i've watched plenty of movies as loud as i've felt comfortable playing them. i've played both Transformers movies, Cloverfield, Master and Commander, and many more as loud as -8 from reference. not at any point did i feel i was in danger of hurting the sub, it's honestly just as loud as i desired to play them. never has it disappointed me.

honestly it's a little hard to answer your question and almost a little subjective. i'd say i'm pretty good at guessing what a certain frequency is when i hear it, but when you get to the very bottom it's a little harder. it's tough, if not impossible to pinpoint say an 18hz tone from a 22hz tone. i can say that the Sentinel has always satisfied my taste for loud and low bass. it's always been capable of pressurizing and shaking my 2400 cu ft room.

there have been concert DVD's or songs on CD that i've re-listened to with the Sentinel and noticed certain things i never heard before. for example, the Rush, Live in Rio concert dvd when the drummer does his crazy drum solo there is some stuff that's around 20hz that i never knew was there. i was never really a huge movie buff before getting the Sentinel, so i can't really cite any specific examples in movies.

there are people who require their response to be flat to 10hz, some even seek 5hz extension. so it's tough to say that 18hz extension is all you need. the problem is that while one person is completely happy with 20hz extension, the next person will desire flat response down to 5hz. you can say it's pointless, but obviously to some people it's not. maybe some day i'll attempt it, but not at this point in my life. the general consensus seems to be that 98% of the content in movies is above 20hz and anything below that in movies isn't all that important.

i've said it numerous times in this thread already, but i'll say it again. my goal was to have a sub that sounded excellent for music and could handle music at any volume level i desired (which is sometimes very high), but also be able to survive an action packed, bass heavy movie at -10 or so from reference level. i achieved that goal 110%. my prior sub could handle the music part pretty well most of the time, but failed big time when i tried watching a movie.

hopefully that helped a little.

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post #9793 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 11:28 AM
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hopefully that helped a little.

It did for me and I enjoyed reading it, thanks.
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post #9794 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 11:38 AM
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mcjasonb - And to add, that HZ below 20 you can feel it more than hear it. That's what I like about my Conquest. In the BHD "Irene" clip, with the copter blades spinning and the troops loading, you can feel the hz pressure on your body and especially in your ears with the low hz.

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post #9795 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 12:33 PM
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Non-audible bass is a big part of experiencing sound. I can totally understand how your budget is going to be a factor in whether or not you are going to be able to afford a subwoofer that will deliver the non-audible bass but depriving yourself of it will definitely not be good. Purchasing a lessor sub because it doesn't reach past audible range is not a smart purchase. I never thought I would able to afford 1 Phoenix but after listening to it I had to have another 1. The reason for that is because of the low non-audible rumble it delivers throughout the room. Any sub can boom-boom, I suggest a sub that shakes your nads. There is nothing like it.

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post #9796 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 12:44 PM
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I suggest a sub that shakes your nads. There is nothing like it.

That's funny I was contemplating the Phoenix but after the wife saw the size she much preferred 2 Sentinels. After already making my purchase Chad wrote me a good e-mail that I'll post here for everybody's benefit on some of the advantages of going this route and also in comparing it to the SVS subs. If for some reason this isn't deemed appropriate please let me know and I'll edit it but I think it's advantageous to the person who's shopping for a sub.

Quote:


At their current price, the Sentinels are simply unbeatable for their size and performance. The PB12-NSD tends to get thrown into the mix as a comparison since is has a 12 inch driver and a similar price point. However, that is where the similarities stop.

The driver we use in our Sentinel subwoofer has a 3 inch voice coil and nearly 8 inch diameter magnets. The NSD driver has a 2 inch voice coil and a much smaller magnet structure. In fact, to get the same sized motor/magnet from SVS in a 12 inch driver, you have to move up to their $1200 PB12-Plus. That should put things in perspective for you.

The larger motor has several advantages. Just like a car, acceleration and performance are improved with a larger motor. It essentially gives you more control over the cone. More control equals lower distortion and less overhang, with stop-on-a-dime performance.

The Sentinel will have more 20 Hz output than the NSD, even though its cabinet is far smaller. Thanks to the huge motor and the large 600 watt amplifier, it really has incredible low bass and subsonic output.

Moving up to the Phoenix is definitely a big step up from one Sentinel. You will get more overall output, midbass punch, low end output and deeper extension.

when you compare the Phoenix to the SVS PB12-Plus, you will notice greater overall output and "slam" thanks to the 18 inch driver. Musicality is outstanding, thanks once again to the huge motor/magnet structure.

The 18 inch driver is often barely moving even when it is playing very loud, thanks to the increased cone area. You can also run the Phoenix sealed instead of ported should you wish to improve musicality even further. The ports also tend to exhibit no port noise because they are on the bottom of the cabinet. They tend to be dead quiet.

Dual Sentinels will eclipse the output of a Phoenix at any frequency. In fact, a pair of them will even outperform the Dynasty down into the mid teens. Dual drivers and amplifiers definitely has its advantages!

Dual smaller subwoofers are often easier to place than one big subwoofer. It doesn't seem to matter when you are thinking about it in paper. When you actually go to do the setup in your room, having a pair of small subwoofers that "hide" very well in a room can be a great advantage.

You can also sometimes achieve a flatter in-room response with a pair of subwoofers than just one. That is not always true, but it definitely gives you more placement options and flexibility.

I hope that gives you a good starting point. Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Thanks again for your email and your interest in Epik Subwoofers.

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post #9797 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post

That's funny I was contemplating the Phoenix but after the wife saw the size she much preferred 2 Sentinels. After already making my purchase Chad wrote me a good e-mail that I'll post here for everybody's benefit on some of the advantages of going this route and also in comparing it to the SVS subs. If for some reason this isn't deemed appropriate please let me know and I'll edit it but I think it's advantageous to the person who's shopping for a sub.

very nice. "two will totally outperform a Dynasty". that's nice!

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post #9798 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 01:51 PM
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How would the 2 Sentinels work on the ends of the L couch? Any thoughts?

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post #9799 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post

That's funny I was contemplating the Phoenix but after the wife saw the size she much preferred 2 Sentinels. After already making my purchase Chad wrote me a good e-mail that I'll post here for everybody's benefit on some of the advantages of going this route and also in comparing it to the SVS subs. If for some reason this isn't deemed appropriate please let me know and I'll edit it but I think it's advantageous to the person who's shopping for a sub.

Thanks for posting that, Mike. That just reafirms my purchase. I can't wait for Monday evening! I own the SVS PB12-NSD and will say it is no slouch.
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post #9800 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 03:50 PM
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Yes thanks for posting that email. I especially like reading this line:
"Dual Sentinels will eclipse the output of a Phoenix at any frequency. In fact, a pair of them will even outperform the Dynasty down into the mid teens. Dual drivers and amplifiers definitely has its advantages!"

For me it was either between the two Sentinels or a single Dynasty (similar price point)... I thought I might lose a bit of low end extension but based on this statement, with two, it doesn't look like i'll miss out on much low end extension... maybe 2-3Hz. Output in the mid-teens that will beat the Dynasty should be AMPLE for me. I ultimately went with two sentinels because of the enormous volume I have to fill. Can't wait... should be mid-late next week.
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post #9801 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post

How would the 2 Sentinels work on the ends of the L couch? Any thoughts?

I would try one one each side. Almost as an end table. You can also try up front one on each side of the main speaker. What I would try is setting up one at a time and see where the null is. The try to counter that null with the other sub. It's all about placement and trial and error. It took me about 4 months to find the sweet spot in my room. Now it's sitting as a end table to the right of the couch. It sounds the best out of all spots. When it sounds like the bass is coming from your mains then it's a good start.
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post #9802 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 05:52 PM
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I would try one one each side. Almost as an end table. You can also try up front one on each side of the main speaker. What I would try is setting up one at a time and see where the null is. The try to counter that null with the other sub. It's all about placement and trial and error. It took me about 4 months to find the sweet spot in my room. Now it's sitting as a end table to the right of the couch. It sounds the best out of all spots. When it sounds like the bass is coming from your mains then it's a good start.

Thanks, I'll give that a try. The front side is gonna be pretty limited in this living room with the AV stand and SongTowers I have ordered. We'll be moving in a few months so I'm really buying this system for a little bit larger house than what we currently own but I do appreciate the advice.
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post #9803 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 07:33 PM
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Here's a question... I got a Dynasty a few days ago, and have watched 3 movies with it so far. (Transformers 2, WOTW, and Armageddon). During an intense bass scene in Transformers, a couple balls of the white fiber fill they use on the inside of the cabnet was blown out the front port. Anoter ball of fluff was pushed out during WOTW. They are about the size of tennis balls.

Is this just loose dampening material being pushed out by the air pressure, has anyone else had this happen? I'll only be concerned if this continues to any extent.
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post #9804 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 08:05 PM
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Here's a question... I got a Dynasty a few days ago, and have watched 3 movies with it so far. (Transformers 2, WOTW, and Armageddon). During an intense bass scene in Transformers, a couple balls of the white fiber fill they use on the inside of the cabnet was blown out the front port. Anoter ball of fluff was pushed out during WOTW. They are about the size of tennis balls.

Is this just loose dampening material being pushed out by the air pressure, has anyone else had this happen? I'll only be concerned if this continues to any extent.

Someone had the same thing happen to his Dynasty and it was fine after the few that came out.
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post #9805 of 20368 Old 11-14-2009, 08:48 PM
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You know reading all this about the dual sentinels I can't help but wonder what dual Phoenixes would do even though I know there is a considerable $$ difference. I had the sentinel but sent it back in exchange for the phoenix because I have a small room and didn't want to have another box to worry about placing somewhere. I should be getting the phoenix monday so I can't wait.

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post #9806 of 20368 Old 11-15-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

I have the Epik Dragon and Ascend Audio speakers. Duals are always better than one. This will fix any room nulls.

are the ascends a recent addition? what did you get? i havent been on here in months, so hope you dont mind. I also have the ascends, 340's, 200's in a 7 channel system.
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post #9807 of 20368 Old 11-15-2009, 02:34 PM
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are the ascends a recent addition? what did you get? i havent been on here in months, so hope you dont mind. I also have the ascends, 340's, 200's in a 7 channel system.

About 2 months ago. I have the 170se's and a 340se center.
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post #9808 of 20368 Old 11-15-2009, 04:53 PM
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Irishluck73, thanks for sharing that great email. I am actually a new owner of the newest offering of the SVS PC12-PLUS, and at this point i am not really that satisfied. Prior to this I was running a 175 watt slot ported 10" Velodyne DLS-3750. I think the PC12+ is maybe only a 20% improvement, but I still think the Velodyne has an overall more satisfying performance. Of course the SVS wins hands down in the max extension and SPL contest.

I am debating about replacing my PC12-plus with a Sentinel. I know it has a much smaller internal cubic volume, but I from what I am reading it can still do well for HT. I use my sub for 99% HT. Any feedback or info would be appreciated. Thanks!
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post #9809 of 20368 Old 11-15-2009, 04:57 PM
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Well Chad just emailed me a very detailed response to a question I had, he's really a hell of a guy, anyway, my Duals are being shipped tomorrow!
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post #9810 of 20368 Old 11-15-2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike2069 View Post

Well Chad just emailed me a very detailed response to a question I had, he's really a hell of a guy, anyway, my Duals are being shipped tomorrow!

Anything you want to share? I'll have my dualies tomorrow evening, WOOT!
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