Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 405 - AVS Forum
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post #12121 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 07:10 AM
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By definition LFE goes up to 150 hz. You really think 150 hz isn't directional?

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post #12122 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

By definition LFE goes up to 150 hz. You really think 150 hz isn't directional?

I thought LFE goes up to 120Hz?

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post #12123 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

When I think about how the opposing drivers work, it is just hard for me to believe that there is no difference between opposing and same side woofer placement. I just think about the sound waves bouncing around the room, hitting each other and whatnot, screwing each other up. I imagine if the drivers were on the same side, all would be right with the direction the waves are going, since the waves emmited are hitting the same walls and starting in the same direction.

But imagining is all it is, because from talking to Chad and searching around the internet I know this to be false. After all a 20hz soundwave I believe is 54 feet long.... Still, I just can't help but to think it isn't quite as good somehow in some way, as same side driver placement.

What I meant was was there any discernible difference in the FR with an Empire facing forward vs. an Empire facing the side. Not the Empire vs. a sub with drivers only on one side.

ala Yoda...

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post #12124 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 08:03 AM
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Ok so how do you guys think 2 Empires will play with 2 MFW-15s and an SVS 16-46NSD? I'm looking to get some more midbass slam and tighter LFE. I'm thinking of stacking the Empires on top of the MFWs.

The problem with obsessions is that they are insatiable.
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post #12125 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 08:22 AM
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Hello, looking for a new sub. It seems everyone is buying the dual empires. My budget will allow for a single empire. Will this still be a nice sub or do I need the duals? I only have a paradigm pdr10 right now so it won't take much to be an upgrade. Thanks
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post #12126 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

I thought LFE goes up to 120Hz?

You may be right. I didn't have my coffee when I posted.

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post #12127 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

You may be right. I didn't have my coffee when I posted.

I hear ya

But the thing about LFE. LFE material sent to the LFE channel is often not "directional" sound. For example, very rarely (if ever) sound such as voices and whatnot (sound you WANT to be directional) is sent to that channel. I keep LFE LPF set to 120 (which is my max) so I get all the sound that was meant to go to the LFE (non-directional).

This is not to be confused with the LPF of all your other speakers in the set up. I keep those at 80hz.

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post #12128 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

I thought LFE goes up to 120Hz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

By definition LFE goes up to 150 hz. You really think 150 hz isn't directional?

I made the mistake, thanks for the correction. I should stop visting this site during work. It's causing me to "speed" post.
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post #12129 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidmaven View Post

Ok so how do you guys think 2 Empires will play with 2 MFW-15s and an SVS 16-46NSD? I'm looking to get some more midbass slam and tighter LFE. I'm thinking of stacking the Empires on top of the MFWs.

Usually, mixing sealed and ported subs and doing it with 3 different designs doesn't work. I think the main reasons have to do with different tunings, falloffs at the low end and frequency responses.

It easy to get fired up about the new sub on the block, but if you're not having problems with your MFW-15s, then you probably have better subs than you realize.

edit...as far as getting tighter sound, have you run REW near field and from your primary listening position to determine if what you are experience is a room problem and not a sub problem?

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post #12130 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

I hear ya

But the thing about LFE. LFE material sent to the LFE channel is often not "directional" sound. For example, very rarely (if ever) sound such as voices and whatnot (sound you WANT to be directional) is sent to that channel. I keep LFE LPF set to 120 (which is my max) so I get all the sound that was meant to go to the LFE (non-directional).

This is not to be confused with the LPF of all your other speakers in the set up. I keep those at 80hz.

Additionally, you have to figure in that you may be getting harmonics or things rattling in the room that makes you think its directional when its not.

I have the misfortune of being able to tell what direction 80hz is coming from. That keeps me from putting a subwoofer behind me where I really could use it to help balance the frequency response.

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post #12131 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Usually, mixing sealed and ported subs and doing it with 3 different designs doesn't work. I think the main reasons have to do with different tunings, falloffs at the low end and frequency responses.

It easy to get fired up about the new sub on the block, but if you're not having problems with your MFW-15s, then you probably have better subs than you realize.

edit...as far as getting tighter sound, have you run REW near field and from your primary listening position to determine if what you are experience is a room problem and not a sub problem?

I've had the MFWs for 2 years and I guess my biggest complaint is that they just don't have that "bulletproof" feeling to them. I have to run them at a lower level than I'd like so they don't flutter. I have run REW and have a pretty flat FR. I even created a hard-knee house curve so I could get a little more slam out of them but there still seems to be something missing. I'm not entirely sure I'm going to use all the subs in the HT, just wondering what the mix would be like. If the Empires are as good as advertised I'll probably be replacing the MFWs with them and pulling the SVS out of the room. I have a Velodyne F-1500R that I used with the SVS prior to the MFWs and I think I prefer the tighter dynamics of a sealed sub as opposed to ported. If I'm wrong I'm sure I can find someone who would like a nice pair of Empires.

The problem with obsessions is that they are insatiable.
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post #12132 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 440forpower View Post

Hello, looking for a new sub. It seems everyone is buying the dual empires. My budget will allow for a single empire. Will this still be a nice sub or do I need the duals? I only have a paradigm pdr10 right now so it won't take much to be an upgrade. Thanks

FWIW,

I purchased the empire as my first sub, I have def tech towers with built in amp/subs they do well in the bass dept but not real low. Room is 13.5 by 18. 1/2 wall open in the rear to two staircases headed up. Single Empire has made a nice difference in my system with new cleaner tighter bass. I'm not a bass head, I don't get the slam in the chest some speak of, but I don't have it up too high, and have yet to EQ beyond Audyssey. I am more into music than HT. MC music and Blue Ray movie concerts have new life. Scenes from Terminator & Hurt Locker went real low and this sub performed flawlessly adding a clean WOW! to the experience. I am considering adding another not because I really need it but because it seems like such a good deal and I'm sure there would be another improvement with the additional SPL but you won't go wrong with a single to start with.
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post #12133 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

edit...as far as getting tighter sound, have you run REW near field and from your primary listening position to determine if what you are experience is a room problem and not a sub problem?

And have bass traps been added to the room? Sub eq been run if necessary? Fix the room and the response first, before throwing thousands more $ at it.

Why using other people's TV settings is a
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post #12134 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

And have bass traps been added to the room? Sub eq been run if necessary? Fix the room and the response first, before throwing thousands more $ at it.

Yes, yes and yes. Its a nasty hobby we do these things because we can't help it. Read my sig.

The problem with obsessions is that they are insatiable.
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post #12135 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 11:13 AM
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So what do I all need to hook up a empire to a pioneer sc-07 reciever. Right now all I'm using is a coax looking cable to my paradigm. Sorry for the newb ? but I'm just getting into the HT stuff. Thanks
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post #12136 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 440forpower View Post

So what do I all need to hook up a empire to a pioneer sc-07 reciever. Right now all I'm using is a coax looking cable to my paradigm. Sorry for the newb ? but I'm just getting into the HT stuff. Thanks

Same cable should do the job.

The problem with obsessions is that they are insatiable.
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post #12137 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 04:31 PM
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Can the Empires be daisy chained off of each other?
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post #12138 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post

Can the Empires be daisy chained off of each other?

Not natively. You would need to use a simple adapter such as THIS.
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post #12139 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 05:39 PM
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Nice.

Thank you.
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post #12140 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dondino View Post

What I meant was was there any discernible difference in the FR with an Empire facing forward vs. an Empire facing the side. Not the Empire vs. a sub with drivers only on one side.



Empire facing fwd vs side, in 2 different positions. (no eq)
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post #12141 of 20408 Old 02-22-2010, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

What I meant was was there any discernible difference in the FR with an Empire facing forward vs. an Empire facing the side. Not the Empire vs. a sub with drivers only on one side.

I got that, I was just throwing my somewhat related thought out there thinking someone may have the same thought. I just can't get it past my thick skull that my empire (first of which will be here tomorrow by the way,) will actually have performance of a sub with both drivers on the same side.
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post #12142 of 20408 Old 02-23-2010, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

When I think about how the opposing drivers work, it is just hard for me to believe that there is no difference between opposing and same side woofer placement. I just think about the sound waves bouncing around the room, hitting each other and whatnot, screwing each other up. I imagine if the drivers were on the same side, all would be right with the direction the waves are going, since the waves emmited are hitting the same walls and starting in the same direction.

But imagining is all it is, because from talking to Chad and searching around the internet I know this to be false. After all a 20hz soundwave I believe is 54 feet long.... Still, I just can't help but to think it isn't quite as good somehow in some way, as same side driver placement.

Don't think of it as a directional thing. Think of it as a pressure thing. When the driver is moving outwards from the box, it's exerting positive pressure. When it's moving inwards, it's creating negative pressures. When both drivers are pushing out and moving inwards simultaneously, the output from each driver adds up. When they're moving in exactly opposite directions, they cancel out to varying degrees, depending on where you're observing them (aka, a dipole).

Alternating zones of positive and negative pressure moving at 1130 ft/second = sound, with the frequency equal to the number of complete alternations (or cycles) per second. The speed of sound will depend on altitude, temperature, and humidity, but 1130 is a decent approximation. You divide the speed of sound by the frequency to get the wavelength, so 20 Hz is ~56 ft long.

There will be a difference in the frequency response, but that has to do with the exact location of the drivers and how they interact with room modes.
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post #12143 of 20408 Old 02-23-2010, 04:48 AM
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It can be a little confusing because there are a couple of concepts here. There's directionality in the sense of "can I tell that the sound is coming from the sub?" For most folks, a crossover at 80 Hz will get the higher frequencies, that our ears use to hear direction, down low enough in level so that we can't identify location of the sub. But it seems to depend on the individual, the sub and the room.

As I understand it, bass frequencies from a typical sub are emitted omnidirectionally. A 100 Hz tone has a wavelength of a bit over 11 feet, so the sub's baffle is nowhere near big enough to yield directional sound emanation. Those long wavelengths basically just wrap right around the box. As I understand it, the very long wavelengths also mean that the minor positional differences between drivers on opposite sides of the box don't make significant difference - - there's not enough difference in relative phase to cause the two drivers' output to do anything but add. Theoretically, as I understand it, since any subwoofer is emanating sound omnidirectionally, the issues related to sound bouncing off of boundaries and creating canellations and additive effects is also independent of whether drivers are on the same or opposing baffles.
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post #12144 of 20408 Old 02-23-2010, 06:44 AM
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Hi Guys,

I'm almost there my Dual Empires in Newark,NJ(only ~10 miles from my house). So I got a question for the pro's on integrating the subwoofers into my system.

I never really had a real subwoofer for home. I have 2 pairs of speakers one set of floor standers (ADS L1590) that I use when watching movies and I swith to a pair of small monitors that I use for music (these have high end Hiquphon tweets & 5.5 inch scanspeak revelator midbass). I use a NAD c372 integrated amp.

I plan on keeping it at 2.1 for the time being (I plan on moving to a bigger house during the summer when I'll be able to change this). For movies I think I can run the towers full range and let the subs take over at the bottom. Confusion is for music, the NAD has no bass management should I use a passive high pass filter on them at maybe 80hz and let the subs take over from there or is it better to I pickup a electronic crossover and send <80hz signal to the subs and >80hz to the monitors? Any suggestions appreciated.
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post #12145 of 20408 Old 02-23-2010, 09:22 AM
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Electronic crossover will be your best bet. Plenty of flexibility to dial in your subs and monitors. You will not believe the difference in your 2 channel set up when you dial in stereo subs with your monitors.
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post #12146 of 20408 Old 02-23-2010, 09:57 AM
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My Epik Empire has been shipped. Woot!
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post #12147 of 20408 Old 02-23-2010, 10:00 AM
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Mine should be here within the hour...can't wait!

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post #12148 of 20408 Old 02-23-2010, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

By definition LFE goes up to 150 hz. You really think 150 hz isn't directional?

That's strange. Where does your definition come from?

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/z...nal/38_LFE.pdf

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...pril-2000.html
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post #12149 of 20408 Old 02-23-2010, 10:36 AM
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dumb question but would having two of these on one circuit with the reciever and TV blow a circuit?

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post #12150 of 20408 Old 02-23-2010, 10:52 AM
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Yes. Mainly just the subs. TV won't draw a lot of current after it is on. Receiver is a draw but not that bad.

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