Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 411 - AVS Forum
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post #12301 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by socwrkr View Post

I think you need to read some more posts in this thread again.. there are actually quite a few posts about placement issues and the difficulty people who have bought the empire have had upon first setting up their sub... more so than I've seen posted about other subs... I'm not dissing the empire but this may lead to me buying a different sub. Some people just don't have the option to place it anywhere in a room they want to, especially if it's not a dedicated theater room.

I've voiced alot about placement because I got 2 ... with a single empire it would have been a no brainer ... the same corner my last sub was in. You're finding a lot of Empire folks here buying duals and with duals there's a lot more trial and error with placement.

If you're thinking about just one sub and considering the empire then it's easy. It's a great sub. If you're replacing a single sub and you know it's in a good spot, then the Empire should work just as well in the same spot.

Don

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post #12302 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 02:15 PM
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my statement stands. the empire cannot be any more difficult than another sub. please explain how you think it can be, using something more substantial than anecdotes as evidence.
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post #12303 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 02:38 PM
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For those with tight spaces, it can be more problematic to place. Since the drivers are on opposite sides, you need atleast 2-3 inches of clearance distance from the sides. Using the same tight space, if it were a regular sub, it can be slid right into place like a slot. No need to worry about side clearance.

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

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post #12304 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TnTBigman View Post

For those with tight spaces, it can be more problematic to place. Since the drivers are on opposite sides, you need atleast 2-3 inches of clearance distance from the sides. Using the same tight space, if it were a regular sub, it can be slid right into place like a slot. No need to worry about side clearance.

Good point ... but ... for a 120lb sub, it's relatively narrow. I think that's intentional for dealing with tight spaces.

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post #12305 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dookie1 View Post

my statement stands. the empire cannot be any more difficult than another sub. please explain how you think it can be, using something more substantial than anecdotes as evidence.

Haha, no one was asking you to retract your statement. I have no clue why the Empire is or would be more difficult to place except for maybe the dual sub issue... All Im saying is that if you read through these posts over the past month or so, you will notice quite a few comments from new owners who had difficulty with placement or comments made that it didn't sound right to them when they first hooked it up... Although this may be expected, I haven't read many comments like this about other subs.
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post #12306 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 03:45 PM
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I think seeing 2 woofers is persuading people to make placement more difficult than it needs to be.
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post #12307 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socwrkr View Post

I think you need to read some more posts in this thread again.. there are actually quite a few posts about placement issues and the difficulty people who have bought the empire have had upon first setting up their sub... more so than I've seen posted about other subs... I'm not dissing the empire but this may lead to me buying a different sub. Some people just don't have the option to place it anywhere in a room they want to, especially if it's not a dedicated theater room.

Haha, no one was asking you to retract your statement. I have no clue why the Empire is or would be more difficult to place except for maybe the dual sub issue... All Im saying is that if you read through these posts over the past month or so, you will notice quite a few comments from new owners who had difficulty with placement or comments made that it didn't sound right to them when they first hooked it up... Although this may be expected, I haven't read many comments like this about other subs.

By all means feel free to buy another sub!

However, the logic in your post is ill. Even statistical truth requires more rigor than a post count...

A few points:
Some portion of the posts regarding placement were from admitted sub nubes and some were mere inquiries about placement, no doubt influenced by having read other posters passing the meme along in a self-fulfilling, rumor propagation pattern.

The more powerful and low extending is a sub, the more critical the placement and EQ.

If your room layout/WAF severely constrains sub placement, consider that with any sub that has power and extension you will need a means to EQ it to tailor it to the room's response.

Best of luck with your decision. Personally, I don't think that you will be disappointed should you select the Empire for your low frequency assault vehicle.

=>><<=robobob
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post #12308 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post

I hear yah. I too like to joke...except when I'm the object of ridicule

Plus I read your comment before I had my morning coffee so I took it a little harsher than normal. I was like, hey, I played college football, am an avid muay thai practitioner, and am quite the beer pong player...don't you dare criticize my manliness via my West Elm lamp and squiggly branch thing. Nah all is good...back to Empire bliss.

YUMMY! I was looking for something to do tonight! Rock On!

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post #12309 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 05:09 PM
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post #12310 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 06:16 PM
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What is Multi ID posting if that is ok to ask??
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What is Multi ID posting if that is ok to ask??

that is when you register and post under more than one ID: it is not allowed

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post #12312 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 06:21 PM
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Thank you Mark, that's what I thought it was.
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post #12313 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 06:36 PM
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post #12314 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 09:02 PM
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[quote=robobob;18230712]By all means feel free to buy another sub!

However, the logic in your post is ill. Even statistical truth requires more rigor than a post count...

A few points:
Some portion of the posts regarding placement were from admitted sub nubes and some were mere inquiries about placement, no doubt influenced by having read other posters passing the meme along in a self-fulfilling, rumor propagation pattern.

The more powerful and low extending is a sub, the more critical the placement and EQ.

If your room layout/WAF severely constrains sub placement, consider that with any sub that has power and extension you will need a means to EQ it to tailor it to the room's response.

Best of luck with your decision. Personally, I don't think that you will be disappointed should you select the Empire for your low frequency assault vehicle. [/QUOT

I get your point and appreciate it but i originally posted when someone posted a response to another member who had some placement difficulties indicating that it was an isolated issue to that member due to his room when in fact there had been multiple other posts (whether newbie or not) about those issues. I understand that no sub is plug and play, however, it would seem sealed subs, with the empire being no exception, require a bit more care and tweaking that honestly I feel is beyond my capabilities or desire to learn at this point as someone who has just really gotten into this over the past 5 months or so.
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post #12315 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socwrkr View Post

I get your point and appreciate it but i originally posted when someone posted a response to another member who had some placement difficulties indicating that it was an isolated issue to that member due to his room when in fact there had been multiple other posts (whether newbie or not) about those issues. I understand that no sub is plug and play, however, it would seem sealed subs, with the empire being no exception, require a bit more care and tweaking that honestly I feel is beyond my capabilities or desire to learn at this point as someone who has just really gotten into this over the past 5 months or so.

Actually, all subs are plug and play. There are 2 variables which dictate how your sub will sound however, the sub itself and the listening area. Whether you want to spend the extra effort to get the greatest potential of your purchase and best blend of the two, well, that is a matter of preference.

This will hold true with whatever sub you intend to buy.

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12316 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 09:58 PM
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When I had an empire planted with one of it's woofers blasting directly against a wall, it didn't sound as good to me, a little too boomy. With the empire, and its opposing drivers, in many peoples rooms, one woofer would HAVE to be facing a wall, whereas other subs could have it's driver facing out into the room. An empire or submersive's corner placement guarantees a driver would be pumping straight into a wall in fact. Sure you could give it a few inches, but in my case I had to take it out almost a foot to hear the boominess improve substantially. More so than my MFW and valor. I am no sub expert, or even intermediate user, so perhaps JoshKo was right about it being placebo, but I did mess around with placement with the valor to see if it was the same situation and it wasn't. Didn't try it with the MFW though.

So this is the problem I was talking about with placement. I don't know about others who may have had the same issue.
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post #12317 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

When I had an empire planted with one of it's woofers blasting directly against a wall, it didn't sound as good to me, a little too boomy. With the empire, and its opposing drivers, in many peoples rooms, one woofer would HAVE to be facing a wall, whereas other subs could have it's driver facing out into the room. An empire or submersive's corner placement guarantees a driver would be pumping straight into a wall in fact. Sure you could give it a few inches, but in my case I had to take it out almost a foot to hear the boominess improve substantially. More so than my MFW and valor. I am no sub expert, or even intermediate user, so perhaps JoshKo was right about it being placebo, but I did mess around with placement with the valor to see if it was the same situation and it wasn't. Didn't try it with the MFW though.

So this is the problem I was talking about with placement. I don't know about others who may have had the same issue.

I hear ya. I personally couldn't tell the difference (nor could REW) facing the wall or otherwise, as long as the driver had a few inches to "breathe". I never tried closer than around 4 inches from the wall though.

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12318 of 20368 Old 03-01-2010, 11:03 PM
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What do you consider a good bitrate? I used to use 192 kbps, but I've recently been trying to minimize used disc space so I switched to 128. I can't say that I notice much difference, but I can't say I've compared either.

It can vary by material, by gear and (most importantly) by listener. 128kbps is generally regarded as noticeably poorer quality than uncompressed CD files. 256kbps is a good deal better, and many people often find 320kbps to be nearly indistinguishable from uncompressed WAV files. I personally find 320kbps to be very good, but the vast majority of my most important music is still uncompressed WAV files on my PS3's 320GB HD (I'd use FLAC or another lossless codec but PS3 isn't compatible with these formats).
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post #12319 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 03:33 PM
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Since you guys have been so quiet today ...

Someone talk me out of buying a SECOND PAIR of Empires!

Other than the girlfriend will do a John Bobbit number on me ...

Don

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12320 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 03:46 PM
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John Bobbit??? Really??? Carry on.
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post #12321 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Since you guys have been so quiet today ...

Someone talk me out of buying a SECOND PAIR of Empires!

Other than the girlfriend will do a John Bobbit number on me ...

Don

Don, we will be happy to help you with an intervention if you will explain what is lacking now.

Warning label: in this crowd, we may just as likely agree that you NEED the second set of dual Empires and recommend a pair of kevlar pajamas to sleep in!

What is lacking in current setup:

SPL? How large is your room volume?

Headroom? What levels do you listen at (reference?) and how hot is your house curve?

Even distribution of frequency response throughout all of the listening locations? Where are the problem seats located in relation to the subs?

Extension? What tool do you use for EQ?

Nulls? What do you do about room treatments?

Ease of placement? Since with four subs you have greater flexibility in placing them in more unobtrusive locations (end tables anyone?), can you possibly sell the second set of duals to the girlfriend in the form of advantages to the decor i.e. WAF or in this case GAF?

Uncontrollable lust for more and more bass? Have you looked for any meetings of Basshead-Anonymous happening near you?

=>><<=robobob
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post #12322 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 03:59 PM
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Instead of another pair of Empires, how about room treatments? A projector and screen? Bigger, heftier mains? External amplification?

I don't know what kind of system you have besides the first pair of Empires, but don't sink all your money into the bass if the rest of your system is lacking. It's like putting a boomin' system into a beater car that needs a paint job and rims. Or fine Italian leather shoes to go with board shorts and a tank top.
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post #12323 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

instead of another pair of empires, how about room treatments? A projector and screen? Bigger, heftier mains? External amplification?

I don't know what kind of system you have besides the first pair of empires, but don't sink all your money into the bass if the rest of your system is lacking. It's like putting a boomin' system into a beater car that needs a paint job and rims. Or fine italian leather shoes to go with board shorts and a tank top.

+1
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post #12324 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by robobob View Post

Don, we will be happy to help you with an intervention if you will explain what is lacking now.

Warning label: in this crowd, we may just as likely agree that you NEED the second set of dual Empires and recommend a pair of kevlar pajamas to sleep in!

What is lacking in current setup:

SPL? How large is your room volume?

Headroom? What levels do you listen at (reference?) and how hot is your house curve?

Even distribution of frequency response throughout all of the listening locations? Where are the problem seats located in relation to the subs?

Extension? What tool do you use for EQ?

Nulls? What do you do about room treatments?

Ease of placement? Since with four subs you have greater flexibility in placing them in more unobtrusive locations (end tables anyone?), can you possibly sell the second set of duals to the girlfriend in the form of advantages to the decor i.e. WAF or in this case GAF?

Uncontrollable lust for more and more bass? Have you looked for any meetings of Basshead-Anonymous happening near you?

Damn you and your making sense!

1 - Listening area almost 4000sqft. Opens to a great room, about 10000 sqft total. Not sure how the 5 ft wide opening from the listening (living) room to the great room is affecting the sound but I'm guessing alot. Also, a (un-doored if there's such a word) hall that leads to the rest of the house from the living room. Typical house I guess.

2 - Never measured but I guess we listen at around 80-100db (peek). Depends on how much the neighbors pissed me off that day. House curve is (now) 6db from 20-80. (Hey, it used to be 10!)

3 - I use BFD1124, have a pretty flat FR with the house curve.

4 - The closest thing we have to room treatments is the carpet and sectional No nulls below 120 unless I have no idea wth I'm doing. I'm an IT tech for almost 20 years so I think I'm reading REW right. I honestly could use an education on bass traps and the like, however. Attached is my (not updated with the 6db house curve yet) REW.

5 - After 2 weeks of trial and error, they're placed front middle and rear middle. This gave me the best room FR.

Current gear: Mains NHT SuperTwo's (flat to 32hz), All surrounds NHT SuperOne's. Xover at 100 on all channels.

My biggest reason for another pair? Well, the perfect 4 sub arrangement in regards to FR and ... well, bragging rights of course!



Big hole that leads to the great room (top middle, which is right rear of listening area) and a hall to the left of that closet door that leads to the rest of the house.



Basshead-Anonymous? Hmm ... *twitch* Maybe I should *twitch* check that out.

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12325 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Instead of another pair of Empires, how about room treatments? A projector and screen? Bigger, heftier mains? External amplification?

I don't know what kind of system you have besides the first pair of Empires, but don't sink all your money into the bass if the rest of your system is lacking. It's like putting a boomin' system into a beater car that needs a paint job and rims. Or fine Italian leather shoes to go with board shorts and a tank top.

We just bought a 58" panny plasma, 58v10 ... so another video upgrade any time soon ain't happenin. My NHT's have served me well for almost 10 years now. I will replace them but not this year. Also, the onkyo 905 is only a year old so an amp upgrade aint happenin' anytime soon either.

I think my best bet would be some room treatments. Now to research THAT.

Thanks!

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12326 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 04:45 PM
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I am thinking of buying dual empires, do they have a auto on feature, the websight does not mention it, also, is the finish a flat or shinney finish, thanks
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post #12327 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Since you guys have been so quiet today ...

Someone talk me out of buying a SECOND PAIR of Empires!

Other than the girlfriend will do a John Bobbit number on me ...

Don

Don't buy another set of empires. Your manhood will thank you that it is still there.





Nah just kidding, do it and be blissful.
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post #12328 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cyberbri View Post

Or fine Italian leather shoes to go with board shorts and a tank top.

Are you trying to tell me that when I wear that 3 days a week I don't have fashion sense??
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post #12329 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

I think my best bet would be some room treatments. Now to research THAT.

Thanks!


Room treatment won't do much below 80Hz unless you have a lot of it in the corners. But it can help reduce some of the boominess and cancellation of all the sound bouncing around. You can do bass traps for the corners in all shapes and sizes (corner wedges like GIK Acoustics' tri-traps blend in nicely), and wall treatments to cut down on reflected sound from the speakers (GIK Acoustics has custom art/photo printing to panels blend in with your room better).

If you treat your room right, it can sound like a whole new system. Or at least take it to the next level. You hear more of the system's raw output and less of what the room is doing to it.
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post #12330 of 20368 Old 03-02-2010, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by panzer View Post

I am thinking of buying dual empires, do they have a auto on feature, the websight does not mention it, also, is the finish a flat or shinney finish, thanks

Yes, they have an auto on feature and it's a flat finish ... check out the closeup photos on their website.

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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