Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 412 - AVS Forum
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post #12331 of 20378 Old 03-02-2010, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dondino View Post

We just bought a 58" panny plasma, 58v10

Congrats! Do yourself a favor and stay out of the "11G/12G black level thread" in the plasma thread section

Panny TC-P65VT60 (calibrated by Chad B), Denon AVR-4311, Comcast X1 DVR, Apple TV 3, Sony BDP-S5100,  Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers (mains), Horizon (CC) and HTM-200's (Surr), Dual PSA XV15 Subwoofers!!
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post #12332 of 20378 Old 03-02-2010, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Congrats! Do yourself a favor and stay out of the "11G/12G black level thread" in the plasma thread section

Thanks and LOL yeah I know ... but my manufacture date would seem to indicate I shouldn't have any issues. *crosses fingers*

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12333 of 20378 Old 03-02-2010, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Thanks and LOL yeah I know ... but my manufacture date would seem to indicate I shouldn't have any issues. *crosses fingers*

If you have a 2009 Panasonic, you have an issue
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post #12334 of 20378 Old 03-02-2010, 06:21 PM
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If you have a 2009 Panasonic, you have an issue

I stand corrected. I guess I was mistaking this with some other issue that may or may not effect panny users based on their manufacture date. What that issue was, I quickly forgot when I realized my date was "safe". I was already pissed off at Panny because of their denial that 2009 models Vieracast cannot be upgraded for Netflix. Which is bull$%#@. It's not a matter of unable, it's more like unwilling.

Sigh ... but ... I have a 5 year extended warranty on this puppy so I'm not too worried. There are many ways "around" these issues, push come to shove.

Sorry about the offtopic, back to Epikosis!!

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12335 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Here are some shots of the listening area. Sorry about the poor quality cell phone shots and mess but whatever, fine by my standards!

Front: Panny 58V10, Pair of NHT SuperTwo's, with a SuperOne Center, with Epik numero uno


I don't mean to nitpick or point you out, but 128kbps is pretty low quality for an MP3. You aren't going to do any system justice with that. 192kbps is highly preferred, and if you can go higher then you most definitely should. Storage is so cheap these days anyway. 256kbps is pretty close for most to archival quality, and FLAC for those of us who are anal

Cheers,
Chad
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post #12336 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Lookin' nice, dondino! Man those subs look great. If I didn't still enjoy my old-school first generation Epik Castle so much I'm pretty sure I'd be getting an Empire (or two) myself.

Only one minor suggestion: PLEASE upgrade your music from 128kbps MP3's. It pains me to see such a nice setup running low-bitrate compressed music! Your speakers - and certainly your dual Empires - deserve better .

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What do you consider a good bitrate? I used to use 192 kbps, but I've recently been trying to minimize used disc space so I switched to 128. I can't say that I notice much difference, but I can't say I've compared either.

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Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

It can vary by material, by gear and (most importantly) by listener. 128kbps is generally regarded as noticeably poorer quality than uncompressed CD files. 256kbps is a good deal better, and many people often find 320kbps to be nearly indistinguishable from uncompressed WAV files. I personally find 320kbps to be very good, but the vast majority of my most important music is still uncompressed WAV files on my PS3's 320GB HD (I'd use FLAC or another lossless codec but PS3 isn't compatible with these formats).

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Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

I don't mean to nitpick or point you out, but 128kbps is pretty low quality for an MP3. You aren't going to do any system justice with that. 192kbps is highly preferred, and if you can go higher then you most definitely should. Storage is so cheap these days anyway. 256kbps is pretty close for most to archival quality, and FLAC for those of us who are anal

Cheers,
Chad

Looks like we're thinking along the same lines Chad . I agree that storage costs are so low that it makes sense to keep music archived at high quality. That's the only reason I bought my 320GB hard drive for my PS3. It was only about $100 two years ago - now you can probably get the same amount of storage for about half that price. Unless someone has no intention of listening to music as anything other than background music, it makes sense to me to keep it high quality (lossless or uncompressed if possible).
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post #12337 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 11:01 AM
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Got my dual Empires yesterday. All I can say is WOW!!! These two subs filled my ~13,000 cubic feet with a TON more sound than my 17 yr old Velodyne F-1200 did.

I played some of my reference music CDs right off - stuff I know intimately, starting with The Great Organ At Methuen (one of the best pipe organs in the world) with master organist Michael Murray playing J.S. Bach's Fantasia and Fugue in G minor -- that will blow your mind if you're a basshead. Then I played Flim & the BBs' Tricycle, which is one of the best quality recordings I know of, with tremendous "thump" and fidelity. Wow! Then I played the first 15 mins of The Bourne Ultimatum at full reference level. HOLY CRAP!!!

I'm running a Denon AVR-3200 with B&W DM601s on the right and left and a matched B&W center (don't remember the model). B&W DM100s in the back.

Started w/ the subs side-by-side in front of the audio rack, separated by only a few inches, but aimed w/ the fronts at a 45º angle relative to the room. Later in the day, my 50' cheapie RCA connects arrived and I moved the subs - 1 to the front right corner - about a foot away from the side wall and 2 feet from the front wall, in front of the piano - firing right and left. The other Empire went at the back of the room, next to the fireplace (off center and about 6 feet from one side wall) and up against the back of the built-in cabinets. I did a very brief "subwoofer crawl" and decided this positioning would suffice for a few days 'til I can do more in depth analysis.

Can't say how the Emprires compare to anything but my old Velo F-1200 - but ONE Empire blows it away in depth and impact. They sound "warmer" and full and grounded to me than the Velo did, which seemed so tight and controlled as to be somewhat "sterile".


Oh - regarding hookups... It's been about 15 years since I fooled around with the settings/options in the Denon, so I'm not sure what's what. The cable currently comes out of the pre-out "subwoofer" out on the back of the Denon, into a "Y" splitter, and then from there into the "Crossover" input on each Epik. I tried using the "LFE" input on the Epiks, and it sounded horrid - flat, lifeless and muddled with a lack of depth.

Anybody happen to know off the top if there's a better connection option? Don't recall if my satellites are set to "small" or not in the setup. (The receiver's video output isn't hooked up to the TV at present - have to disconnect the DVD IIRC to connect the receiver's video for the setup screens to show on the TV.)
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post #12338 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 11:25 AM
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Other than the girlfriend will do a John Bobbit number on me ...

funny story...best sports commentary i've ever heard:

UNC had a pair of running backs a while back, unrelated to each other but both named johnson. one was hurt for the game against local rival NC State. listening to a sports talk show on NC State student radio, the commentator said UNC had been 'bobbitted'...ie: lost half their johnson.
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post #12339 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CottyGee View Post

Oh - regarding hookups... It's been about 15 years since I fooled around with the settings/options in the Denon, so I'm not sure what's what. The cable currently comes out of the pre-out "subwoofer" out on the back of the Denon, into a "Y" splitter, and then from there into the "Crossover" input on each Epik. I tried using the "LFE" input on the Epiks, and it sounded horrid - flat, lifeless and muddled with a lack of depth.

Anybody happen to know off the top if there's a better connection option? Don't recall if my satellites are set to "small" or not in the setup. (The receiver's video output isn't hooked up to the TV at present - have to disconnect the DVD IIRC to connect the receiver's video for the setup screens to show on the TV.)


It should be hooked to LFE. The "crossover" sub input uses the sub's internal crossover, cutting bass out of the mix. If you use the sub's crossover, you filter out LFE bass in movie soundtracks which can be as high as 120Hz. If it sounds bad with the LFE input, you need to experiment with placement and other speaker settings more.

In your receiver, set your speakers to Small and you can experiment with a crossover of say 70-90Hz to see what works best in your room with your equipment.

Doesn't your receiver show any setup info on the front display of the unit?
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post #12340 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 12:30 PM
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There *IS* no LFE output on my Denon AVR-3200 receiver. I have only the option of connecting a "pre-out" for "subwoofer". There IS no "LFE" output on a Denon AVR-3200.
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post #12341 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CottyGee View Post

There *IS* no LFE output on my Denon AVR-3200 receiver. I have only the option of connecting a "pre-out" for "subwoofer". There IS no "LFE" output on a Denon AVR-3200.

The subwoofer pre-out on the receiver is exactly where you hook it up to.

"LFE" is the .1 bass channel in movie soundtracks, which is 120Hz down to 1Hz or whatever. The subwoofer also gets bass from any other speakers that are set to small so bass is re-routed to the sub.

On the subwoofer itself, you need to use the LFE input which disables the crossover, not the "crossover" input. For reasons I stated above.
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post #12342 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 12:37 PM
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That Pre-out is the LFE
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post #12343 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 12:59 PM
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Thanks for the replies.

I'll study the owners manual for the AVR3200 some more and experiment with settings. At this point all I can tell you for certain is that the subs sound vastly better hooked to the crossover (top) input. If there are settings in the receiver that need to be changed, and the subs can sound even better than they do now, that'd be terrific.

The DM601s are listed down 3dB @ 60Hz IIRC. So presumably the correct cross point would be something like 70Hz??
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post #12344 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

I don't mean to nitpick or point you out, but 128kbps is pretty low quality for an MP3. You aren't going to do any system justice with that. 192kbps is highly preferred, and if you can go higher then you most definitely should. Storage is so cheap these days anyway. 256kbps is pretty close for most to archival quality, and FLAC for those of us who are anal

Cheers,
Chad

I'm with you guys 100% on this. I'm not usually into MP3's. I usually listen to CD's when I'm doing music. That collection of music, however, was tossed on a thumbdrive for office use with crappy LCD speakers. If you look closely to the receiver you'll see the thumb drive.

Even at that crap bitrate, that 500 song collection takes up over 2gigs.

But yeah, I know all about the whole bit rate thing and I appreciate the heads up.

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12345 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CottyGee View Post

Thanks for the replies.

I'll study the owners manual for the AVR3200 some more and experiment with settings. At this point all I can tell you for certain is that the subs sound vastly better hooked to the crossover (top) input. If there are settings in the receiver that need to be changed, and the subs can sound even better than they do now, that'd be terrific.

The DM601s are listed down 3dB @ 60Hz IIRC. So presumably the correct cross point would be something like 70Hz??

Try 70 and 80Hz to see what sounds best.

Again, if you use the sub's crossover you are cutting out a bunch of bass that the sub is supposed to be playing, mostly from movies, somewhat from music. The 80~120Hz bass is what will sound "loud" during movies, and without it movie soundtracks could sound weak.

Definitely read up on sub placement and integration to optimize where you have it (and your listening position) and how you have it set up. Room acoustics can make or break a sub.
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post #12346 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CottyGee View Post

Thanks for the replies.

I'll study the owners manual for the AVR3200 some more and experiment with settings. At this point all I can tell you for certain is that the subs sound vastly better hooked to the crossover (top) input. If there are settings in the receiver that need to be changed, and the subs can sound even better than they do now, that'd be terrific.

The DM601s are listed down 3dB @ 60Hz IIRC. So presumably the correct cross point would be something like 70Hz??

I'm suspecting that you (like me) are so "tuned" to the sound of your old Velo from many years, that you're having a difficult time adjusting to the different sound of the Empires. When you say it sounded awful to you it could be you were hearing a lot of midbass that the Empires are strong with. I too had issues with this. My old Velo could not touch the Empires midbass. All I heard from the Velo was rumble and thunder. But once I got used to the difference of the Empire and tuned it with a little EQ to my liking, it's vastly superior to my old Velo.

Also, not to knock your Denon at all but you might want to consider a receiver upgrade with better bass management abilities at some point. Not to mention, also upgrading your ability to play uncompressed HD audio.

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12347 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 02:07 PM
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I'm a bit confused about why using the crossover input means that I'm "cutting out a bunch of bass that the sub is supposed to be playing, mostly from movies". If the receiver is passing everything below 80Hz through this "Pre-out" jack, and the sub's crossover is set at or above 80Hz, why would it matter?

I found a copy of the AVR3200 owner's manual online. Looks like the only choice I have is "small" or "large" for the mains... Looks like there is an "LFE Trim" option from -10dB - 0dB.

Hmm... Reading more of the manual - is part of the Dolby Digital definition that LFE goes up to 120 Hz?

As I recall, the setup on this receiver is pretty jacked up and inflexible. I remember having all sorts of problems getting it to sound decent. This was one of the first generations of Dolby Digital receivers - it doesn't have DTS! And it doesn't have the auto room eq function. And it most certainly doesn't have HMDI! LOL S-Video is the best video source, so I don't do any switching in the receiver at all. Plus, my HDTV is an ancient Mitzu rear projection, pre-HDMI. It's got a DVI connector only - and only ONE. LOL So, the upconverting DVD player has to have the DVI connection, and the DRV is hooked up to one of the component inputs... It's a mess back there with all that friggin' wire going everywhere. I hate that part!

I'll play around with it... But for now, the LFE in on the sub sounds horrid and I can't imagine why... But like I say, I'll play around with it and see what results I can get. Gotta go buy me a SPL. Radio Shack digital model for ~$50 seems to be the best bet for cheap, it seems...
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post #12348 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CottyGee View Post

Then I played Flim & the BBs' Tricycle, which is one of the best quality recordings I know of, with tremendous "thump" and fidelity. Wow!

Agreed! I love this CD. For anyone that doesn't know what people mean when they talk about compression in todays mixing standards, need to get this CD. This is a jazz cd, which you wouldn't expect to have such dynamics, but when you listen to the first song, and the piano starts up, you will want to push your volume up to reference level, but watch out, as it quickly jumps to a new level.
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post #12349 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CottyGee View Post

I'm a bit confused about why using the crossover input means that I'm "cutting out a bunch of bass that the sub is supposed to be playing, mostly from movies". If the receiver is passing everything below 80Hz through this "Pre-out" jack, and the sub's crossover is set at or above 80Hz, why would it matter?

The "LFE" signal that goes to the sub is the full signal from 120Hz down to basically 0. The receiver also re-routes bass from other speaker channels at whatever crossover you set, i.e., 80Hz. The re-routed bass is "mixed" between the sub and speakers at a slope. For example, at 80Hz, speaker and sub are both playing about 80% of the full signal at that point. On the slope, the subwoofer gets the full signal reduced by 24dB one octave above the crossover point (so 160Hz). The speakers get 24dB reduced signal 1 octave below the crossover point (so 40Hz). There is no brick wall that splits the signal.

So... the receiver sends the sub A) full LFE signal and B) re-routed bass from other speakers on a slope.

When you engage the crossover in the sub itself, you are filtering out the full-volume LFE signal, plus adding a second filter for all of the re-routed bass.


To show an example, the higher line shows what the sub plays with a crossover of around 70Hz. The bass is already sloped to mix with the mains. The lower line is that same signal, but reduced by engaging the sub's 90Hz crossover. So by engaging that crossover, you lose all the bass between those two ranges (bass that is re-routed from the other speakers), plus you are losing a lot of higher LFE up to 120Hz.




Quote:


I found a copy of the AVR3200 owner's manual online. Looks like the only choice I have is "small" or "large" for the mains... Looks like there is an "LFE Trim" option from -10dB - 0dB.

Hmm... Reading more of the manual - is part of the Dolby Digital definition that LFE goes up to 120 Hz?


That's what I've been saying.

Quote:


As I recall, the setup on this receiver is pretty jacked up and inflexible. I remember having all sorts of problems getting it to sound decent. This was one of the first generations of Dolby Digital receivers - it doesn't have DTS! And it doesn't have the auto room eq function. And it most certainly doesn't have HMDI! LOL S-Video is the best video source, so I don't do any switching in the receiver at all. Plus, my HDTV is an ancient Mitzu rear projection, pre-HDMI. It's got a DVI connector only - and only ONE. LOL So, the upconverting DVD player has to have the DVI connection, and the DRV is hooked up to one of the component inputs... It's a mess back there with all that friggin' wire going everywhere. I hate that part!

I'll play around with it... But for now, the LFE in on the sub sounds horrid and I can't imagine why... But like I say, I'll play around with it and see what results I can get. Gotta go buy me a SPL. Radio Shack digital model for ~$50 seems to be the best bet for cheap, it seems...

Definitely experiment. It could be the fact that you have an extremely old receiver. Maybe your receiver isn't crossing over with the speakers and is sending a full signal to the sub instead of on a slope. You could definitely use a new receiver upgrade. If you can afford an Empire or two, it's time to upgrade to a 21st century receiver.
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post #12350 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 05:31 PM
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Cotty is the second person to say the bass doesn't sound right from the LFE input. I kind of know what he is saying. With the epik xo knob turned all the way up to 150hz, it sounds the same. But with it put at maybe 120, the empire sounds better to me. I am going to run a full manual FR tonight and see what the difference is on paper. I do know that by ear, a lot of the high freq 110-130hz ish boomy sounds are gone when I put the sub xo at 120, so we will see how that goes.

On a side note, when I put my empires in their new place, I had to change the 80hz range alot on my equalizer. I had my BFD EQ set to take 80hz UP 12db with the MFWs, and now I actually had to take 80hz DOWN 13 db with the empires! For some reason the empires just seem to have a LOT more bass in that range than most other subs, my valor included. Maybe it was the placement, because they were way different placement wise, but 25 db!? They sounded boomy in every location, and when I measured the FR on my SPL meter, unfiltered the 80hz range was about 24 db higher than my MFWs! Once I filtered the high bass, it sounded a lot better.
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post #12351 of 20378 Old 03-03-2010, 05:36 PM
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Cotty is the second person to say the bass doesn't sound right from the LFE input ...

Interesting. I'll do the same tonight. Doesn't make any sense, if true.

ala Yoda...

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post #12352 of 20378 Old 03-04-2010, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

Cotty is the second person to say the bass doesn't sound right from the LFE input.

Haven't had time to experiment yet. But the thought occurred that it could be possible the connections got reversed in the manufacture of one of the subs or something. I doubt that's the case, and I'm not sure there's a way to verify. But human error can occur with any manufactured product...

Yes - my receiver is a bit long in the tooth. Some day, I'll upgrade. But I keep waiting, because so much is evolving... The ability to integrate with the PC is slowly developing. I love the Denon sound in combination with my B&W speakers, but the receiver is significantly lacking in flexibility with regard to connectivity, which was frustrating and limiting from the get-go.
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post #12353 of 20378 Old 03-04-2010, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by CottyGee View Post

Haven't had time to experiment yet. But the thought occurred that it could be possible the connections got reversed in the manufacture of one of the subs or something. I doubt that's the case, and I'm not sure there's a way to verify. But human error can occur with any manufactured product...

Yes - my receiver is a bit long in the tooth. Some day, I'll upgrade. But I keep waiting, because so much is evolving... The ability to integrate with the PC is slowly developing. I love the Denon sound in combination with my B&W speakers, but the receiver is significantly lacking in flexibility with regard to connectivity, which was frustrating and limiting from the get-go.

There's an easy way to verify. Play a test tone at say, 80hz. Plug the cable in one port and turn the xover knob from min to max a few times while the tone is playing. Rinse and repeat on the other port. Whichever one's output is affected by you turning the knob is actual xover port.

ala Yoda...

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post #12354 of 20378 Old 03-04-2010, 08:33 AM
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Haven't had time to experiment yet. But the thought occurred that it could be possible the connections got reversed in the manufacture of one of the subs or something. I doubt that's the case, and I'm not sure there's a way to verify. But human error can occur with any manufactured product...

Because you have an older receiver, it isn't properly cutting off the top end of the subwoofer. The Crossover input sounds better because it is actually cutting off the high end of the subwoofer. Using the LFE input with your receiver results in the subwoofer playing higher because it isn't cutting off the bass up top.

This is one of the reasons why we include a crossover input. Some older HT receivers as well as most stereo receivers don't have crossover controls, etc.

It is impossible to 'reverse' the connections of the LFE and crossover upon construction of the amplifier. They all get tested too.

Like Dondino said, there is a really easy way to test it. Just turn the crossover knob on the subwoofer while it is playing and connected to the crossover input, from highest to lowest. You will hear the sound change as you roll off its high end. You can do it with music playing too.

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post #12355 of 20378 Old 03-04-2010, 08:54 AM
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Thanks for the personal reply, Chad!

Like I said from the start, I can't imagine them sounding any better than they do now, other than improvements in response in the listening position from changing placement and otherwise tuning them to the room.

I initially had both subs side by side sort of (each one facing 45º toward the corners of the room) and with them playing at a relatively low volume on a continuous pipe organ note, I did an "A/B" of the two inputs on each sub. It was an unmistakable and marked difference in sound quality.
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post #12356 of 20378 Old 03-04-2010, 11:18 AM
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So now that I have had a chance to live with the Quad Empire's for a week, I thought I would post an update.

The area that has surprised me more than anything is music. I have been listening to music every night for an hour or 2, and absolutely loving it. These subs have such a different blend with my setup than my SVS's had, it is night and day different with music playback. I have 2 subs in the front of the room, and 2 in the back, and have zero localization. I could always locate my rear SVS. The enhancement to my musical playback has really made me feel like a kid again, going back and playing records and CD's I haven't listened to in years.

These subs, in my room at least, are the most enjoyable I have ever had. That includes SVS, Energy, Triad, Velodyne, sunfire, and JL Audio.

Granted I have 4 of them, and it is overkill, But I cannot imagine having better bass in my room. Not just better bass for the price, but better bass period.

My kids, who have never had an interest in this stuff ever, are upstairs every night picking songs, and requesting movie scenes. By the way Toy Story 2 is packed with quality lfe scenes. My 5 year old loves it.

I was considering purchasing 2-4 submersives, and decided to try these out instead. I am done searching for subs.

David
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post #12357 of 20378 Old 03-04-2010, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post

I could always locate my rear SVS.


Excellent ... What did you replace with the Empires?

ala Yoda...

"Tweeters". Heh! "Treble". Heh! A basshead craves not these things! ...
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post #12358 of 20378 Old 03-04-2010, 11:33 AM
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Niiice. Thanks for sharing your experience.

On a side note, I think I'm done with buying subwoofers (although if an an uber ported beast where to come along, priced within reason....i'll bite). But instead, looking to convert the bigger of three sealed spare rooms into a simple HT/listening/pc gaming room.

You'll rarely hear anyone say, "I wish I'd gotten less Sub."

$ubwoofer$ and premium mango tree cultivar$

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post #12359 of 20378 Old 03-04-2010, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dondino View Post

Excellent ... What did you replace with the Empires?

I had 2 SVS PB12 plus 2's.
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post #12360 of 20378 Old 03-04-2010, 01:46 PM
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Cotty, since the Empire's xo knob seems to go up to 150Hz or so, definitely use the xo input on the sub and set the xo to 120~150Hz. Sounds like that's the better option based on the performance of your receiver.
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