Official Epik Subwoofer Thread - Page 698 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20911 of 20930 Old 06-28-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by daveds50 View Post
careful with that... that is a myth that someone made up a long time ago, that has been proven wrong over and over. sure, with too little power, some people without any self control will severely clip the amp and will overheat the voice coil. but it sounds like crap and they should have known better.

however, i can overheat the voice coil even faster overpowering, and often do so on purpose just for fun. no driver has lasted here more than 10 seconds at 29,000 watts true RMS. in fact, no driver so far has lasted more than 1 minute at 8,000 true RMS yet.

and then we could get into the concert stage amps that come here... they often do blow up the output stage due to frying the voice coils from raw power.
Its not a myth. I do acknowledge both are possible but FAR MORE people destroy drivers from exceeding the amplifier capability than by exceeding the driver capability. By the way, what's the dB level at 29,000 watt? 200dB?

I also said this in that post:

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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Honestly, unless your ears are bleeding, your not going to blow up your woofers, especially if you run your receiver calibration (Audyssey on Denon, for example). If you were on the verge of destroying your subs, you would hear it; hearing distortion from playing too loud with an under-powered amplifier or hearing distortion from over-exerting the drivers with too much power. To over-exert these drivers though, it would be seriously uncomfortably loud.
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post #20912 of 20930 Old 06-28-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Its not a myth. I do acknowledge both are possible but FAR MORE people destroy drivers from exceeding the amplifier capability than by exceeding the driver capability. By the way, what's the dB level at 29,000 watt? 200dB?

I also said this in that post:
I won't be experimenting with this but I think you would bottom out the sub drivers producing a loud "BAM!". This could be destructive depending on the design of the voice coils.
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post #20913 of 20930 Old 06-28-2017, 05:37 PM
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Its not a myth. I do acknowledge both are possible but FAR MORE people destroy drivers from exceeding the amplifier capability than by exceeding the driver capability. By the way, what's the dB level at 29,000 watt? 200dB?

I also said this in that post:
only 128dB before smoking. there is only so much that can be done with a single 12 inch 4000 watt driver. when it was in a van with sixteen 15 inch drivers it did 172dB. i did not own the van, but they were my amps... and i was nowhere near the van when they did that run. i have an insane amount of high end car and home audio equipment in my shop that i have been collecting since the mid 1970's.

when i first heard that myth, it was about 20 years ago. a person told me that when i was fixing his Marantz 100 watt x 2 amp. he was using some Seas midrange and tweeters that were rated at 70 watts RMS. ( and yes, they are crossovered perfectly, as verified by my oscilloscope ) i told him to check his speakers with a multimeter because the output section of the amp in one channel was toast. of course, he knew more than anyone in the world about audio and ignored me.

so after the amp was fixed, he hooked it up and immediately fried the same channel.

i went there to check his system and sure enough, one of the midranges was dead shorted. the voice coil was cooked.

so of course, he again did not listen, and replaced it with the exact same speaker.

one month later, the other channel blew out... the same damage.

so i actually gave him a set of 100 watt RMS Dynaudio speakers, and he has been using them for the last 20 years, with the same amp. i took his speakers, and replaced the bad one, and have been using them on my 1977 mid line Pioneer ( 45 watts x 2 ) that i have in my shop office since then too.

you may not think it is a myth, but i can give at least 50 examples with my customers that prove it is a myth.

but yes, clipping an amp is just as destructive. but at least i can hear the clipping before it happens.

there is actually a lot of audio myths... one "expert" in the past on a forum, tried to tell me one... about an amp that i was the sole engineer for.



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Originally Posted by Engineer99 View Post
I won't be experimenting with this but I think you would bottom out the sub drivers producing a loud "BAM!". This could be destructive depending on the design of the voice coils.
not this one though. specifically designed SPL driver that has at least 3 inches of travel before total mechanical limit. normal operation at 4000 watts RMS is 1.6 Xmax. i built the driver.
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post #20914 of 20930 Old 06-28-2017, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by daveds50 View Post
only 128dB before smoking. there is only so much that can be done with a single 12 inch 4000 watt driver. when it was in a van with sixteen 15 inch drivers it did 172dB. i did not own the van, but they were my amps... and i was nowhere near the van when they did that run. i have an insane amount of high end car and home audio equipment in my shop that i have been collecting since the mid 1970's.



when i first heard that myth, it was about 20 years ago. a person told me that when i was fixing his Marantz 100 watt x 2 amp. he was using some Seas midrange and tweeters that were rated at 70 watts RMS. ( and yes, they are crossovered perfectly, as verified by my oscilloscope ) i told him to check his speakers with a multimeter because the output section of the amp in one channel was toast. of course, he knew more than anyone in the world about audio and ignored me.



so after the amp was fixed, he hooked it up and immediately fried the same channel.



i went there to check his system and sure enough, one of the midranges was dead shorted. the voice coil was cooked.



so of course, he again did not listen, and replaced it with the exact same speaker.



one month later, the other channel blew out... the same damage.



so i actually gave him a set of 100 watt RMS Dynaudio speakers, and he has been using them for the last 20 years, with the same amp. i took his speakers, and replaced the bad one, and have been using them on my 1977 mid line Pioneer ( 45 watts x 2 ) that i have in my shop office since then too.



you may not think it is a myth, but i can give at least 50 examples with my customers that prove it is a myth.



but yes, clipping an amp is just as destructive. but at least i can hear the clipping before it happens.



there is actually a lot of audio myths... one "expert" in the past on a forum, tried to tell me one... about an amp that i was the sole engineer for.











not this one though. specifically designed SPL driver that has at least 3 inches of travel before total mechanical limit. normal operation at 4000 watts RMS is 1.6 Xmax. i built the driver.
Your example seems to indicate matching drivers to amps but the actual output of amplifies often do not match their ratings (quality amps often exceeding their rating by a fairly large margin). How would you reconcile that in your example?

My point is simply this: if you don't distort, you won't fry it.

If you disagree, what would you recommend?
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post #20915 of 20930 Old 06-28-2017, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
Your example seems to indicate matching drivers to amps but the actual output of amplifies often do not match their ratings (quality amps often exceeding their rating by a fairly large margin). How would you reconcile that in your example?

My point is simply this: if you don't distort, you won't fry it.

If you disagree, what would you recommend?
the Marantz amp is 100.46 right channel, 100.58 left channel. i still have the paperwork for that repair. for those amps that are known to measure higher than advertised, just get what matches close to what they actually do. the actual numbers are all out there. there are also a lot of upper end amps that are advertised as true spec... example, 147 watts x 2.

i dont tell people to match exactly. just do not vary by a whole lot. too overpowered and the voice coils will eventually overheat. too much under, and some people will clip the amp. both will destroy speakers.

distortion can be heard, clipping also, but it is not always apparent that a voice coil is overheating until it is too late. some speakers sound just fine with too much power until they dont. some amps are so clean, that you will have no idea that you are sending way more power than the speaker can handle.

ok, back on subject. i used to service pallets of iNuke amps... way more of them then i care to think about. while i was never interested in doing any actual tests on them, i do know that when compared to a real quality amp that i have tested, the iNukes were definitely weaker when they advertise the same power. but then again, the iNukes are 1/10th the price, so that is to be expected.

still, if going way over on the advertised power, best to be careful, and i would recommend not playing at a high level for extended periods. i cannot count how many speakers i have overheated when i burn in amps. ( you ought to hear my shop when 30 subs are pounding at the same time ) lets just say i take quite a load to the recycling center every month.
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post #20916 of 20930 Old 07-14-2017, 03:08 PM
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I've had my iNuke 3000DSP powering my Epik Empire for a couple weeks now.
I had stripped the Epik ampifier plate and sealed all the holes by gluing plastic sheeting with silicone glue.
I mounted a Speakon connector in one of the larger holes near the top, connected the wires using a terminal strip, and re-attached the plate (after I had tested it).
Epik even used cheap screws for securing the plate, they were getting bunged up just from removing and screwing them back in.

I have a "Y" connector to supply the receiver sub output to both Ch A and Ch B. That way I can calibrate the level using the Ch A volume and use the Ch B volume if I want to boost it a bit more. I replaced the fan with a Noctua.
I played with the DSP settings using the program from the Behringer website in order to get what I think sounds right.
This may be an ongoing process for a while.


Here are shots of the three DSP settings that I have right now:
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post #20917 of 20930 Old 07-14-2017, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Engineer99 View Post
I've had my iNuke 3000DSP powering my Epik Empire for a couple weeks now.
I had stripped the Epik ampifier plate and sealed all the holes by gluing plastic sheeting with silicone glue.
I mounted a Speakon connector in one of the larger holes near the top, connected the wires using a terminal strip, and re-attached the plate (after I had tested it).
Epik even used cheap screws for securing the plate, they were getting bunged up just from removing and screwing them back in.

I have a "Y" connector to supply the receiver sub output to both Ch A and Ch B. That way I can calibrate the level using the Ch A volume and use the Ch B volume if I want to boost it a bit more. I replaced the fan with a Noctua.
I played with the DSP settings using the program from the Behringer website in order to get what I think sounds right.
This may be an ongoing process for a while.


Here are shots of the three DSP settings that I have right now:
Good job!

Did you ever try listening to it with the EQ flat or just a small bump at 20Hz? Turning all the levels up like that isn't really any different than leaving it flat and turning the gain up...all I did was bump 20Hz a bit in the PEQ, set the Peak Limiter to -1 and leave everything else flat. I haven't messed with it more, yet.

I have no idea why Behringer is using such a noisy fan/high RPM, the iNuke doesn't generate much heat. Was there a shroud in there to direct airflow? I seem to remember I think someone made a shroud or something on a DIY I saw...

I saw on another site someone managed to wire in a remote turn-on relay so the iNuke would automatically fire up with the receiver, the DIY and accompanying pictures were not great and I got used to turning the amp on manually so I never attempted it. One day I suspect I might...but probably not.

I wish the iNuke had a 12v trigger and I would have paid a bit more for it, too.
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post #20918 of 20930 Old 07-15-2017, 05:19 AM
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Good job!

Did you ever try listening to it with the EQ flat or just a small bump at 20Hz? Turning all the levels up like that isn't really any different than leaving it flat and turning the gain up...all I did was bump 20Hz a bit in the PEQ, set the Peak Limiter to -1 and leave everything else flat. I haven't messed with it more, yet.

I have no idea why Behringer is using such a noisy fan/high RPM, the iNuke doesn't generate much heat. Was there a shroud in there to direct airflow? I seem to remember I think someone made a shroud or something on a DIY I saw...

I saw on another site someone managed to wire in a remote turn-on relay so the iNuke would automatically fire up with the receiver, the DIY and accompanying pictures were not great and I got used to turning the amp on manually so I never attempted it. One day I suspect I might...but probably not.

I wish the iNuke had a 12v trigger and I would have paid a bit more for it, too.
I had turned up the levels to get rid of a higher frequency hum that was coming from the receiver. I suppose the low pass filter would handle that so I need to go back and try it with the levels turned down.

Inside the iNuke there is a shroud that is attached to the fan with some sticky stuff. I just stuck it on the new fan. A way to automatically power up the iNuke would be on the "to do" list, but like you say, maybe I'll never get to it.
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post #20919 of 20930 Old 08-13-2017, 12:28 PM
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2 Epik Sentinels officially dead. We moved about 2 months ago and they were working fine. Went to fire up and calibrate my HT system and one wouldn't produce any noise. #2 made a low sub hum sending a calibration signal to it and promptly died with smoke rolling out of the port.

I have not been following this thread but at a glance it would appear the iNuke 3000 is the way to roll to fix these... Any advice or suggestions from Sentinel owners?
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post #20920 of 20930 Old 08-13-2017, 04:32 PM
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2 Epik Sentinels officially dead. We moved about 2 months ago and they were working fine. Went to fire up and calibrate my HT system and one wouldn't produce any noise. #2 made a low sub hum sending a calibration signal to it and promptly died with smoke rolling out of the port.

I have not been following this thread but at a glance it would appear the iNuke 3000 is the way to roll to fix these... Any advice or suggestions from Sentinel owners?
Might just be bad power supply caps, if your handy with a soldering iron, it might be worth a try if you look at the board and dont see anything else smoked. Being unplugged for that long and then being dead at turn on sure points that way
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post #20921 of 20930 Old 08-14-2017, 02:26 AM
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Might just be bad power supply caps, if your handy with a soldering iron, it might be worth a try if you look at the board and dont see anything else smoked. Being unplugged for that long and then being dead at turn on sure points that way
I'll try to get them opened up today after work. I'm not familiar with amplifiers and things of that nature but I'm not afraid to see what's on the inside, they're dead anyways.

My wife's a bit scared of powering them now, due to smoke, and thinking about the possibility of a fire in the future. Due to that reason alone I may be looking to replace these. It's a shame, they sounded really good, when they were up and running.

Thanks for the tip!
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post #20922 of 20930 Old 08-18-2017, 02:23 PM
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Might just be bad power supply caps, if your handy with a soldering iron, it might be worth a try if you look at the board and dont see anything else smoked. Being unplugged for that long and then being dead at turn on sure points that way
I removed the outer screws in the amp but it won't budge. I assume that the screws more inboard are holding things on the plate... Do I need to remove additional screws or is there a trick to remove the amp? Sorry, I've never opened up a sub and this is all new to me.

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post #20923 of 20930 Old 08-18-2017, 02:39 PM
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Nope

Its the gasket or just paint sticking it in. I some times can use a pic in the screw holes, or use the power cord(not plugged into the wall ) to help pry it out. Worst case I either pull the driver(can be stuck just as bad) or just use a screwdriver and pry it out.

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I removed the outer screws in the amp but it won't budge. I assume that the screws more inboard are holding things on the plate... Do I need to remove additional screws or is there a trick to remove the amp? Sorry, I've never opened up a sub and this is all new to me.

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post #20924 of 20930 Old 08-19-2017, 05:06 AM
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It looks like these blue guys got cooked. Are these the power supply caps? Would it be easier/more beneficial to power the subs with an external amp or try to replace what got fried? My wife's worried about them catching on fire, literally, and I'm definitely an amateur when it comes to this type of stuff.

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post #20925 of 20930 Old 08-19-2017, 05:53 AM
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Better shot. Looks cooked and I'm assuming the 2nd sub is the same.

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post #20926 of 20930 Old 08-19-2017, 01:47 PM
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It looks like these blue guys got cooked. Are these the power supply caps? Would it be easier/more beneficial to power the subs with an external amp or try to replace what got fried? My wife's worried about them catching on fire, literally, and I'm definitely an amateur when it comes to this type of stuff.
You gotta use spoiler tags or use smaller photos. Sheesh! I wouldn't mess around with fixing them, I'd replace the amp with another plate or something like the iNuke. I've got a guide for all the parts you'll need if you go with a traditional amp (recommended). Just be aware the iNukes have noisy fans.
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post #20927 of 20930 Old 08-19-2017, 02:13 PM
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That can happen with just about anything that has caps in the power supply these days, and probably wont catch fire, but makes some nice magic smoke when they let loose. Hard to tell if there is any other damage from those pics but.....

If you want to know what happened, google "leaking caps"

I would replace those caps, probably $20 at most in caps and it wont do that again

I would bet that your other amp is getting close to doing the same thing, I would do that one NOW before it does make a mess

a lot of the cheap subs of this time have the same problem, this is also what killed the AV123 MFW-15 and the company
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post #20928 of 20930 Old 08-20-2017, 03:29 PM
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You gotta use spoiler tags or use smaller photos. Sheesh! I wouldn't mess around with fixing them, I'd replace the amp with another plate or something like the iNuke. I've got a guide for all the parts you'll need if you go with a traditional amp (recommended). Just be aware the iNukes have noisy fans.
Sorry, not sure how the pictures showed up so big.

I'd appreciate the parts list and guidance. Thanks!
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post #20929 of 20930 Old 08-20-2017, 10:49 PM
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You gotta use spoiler tags or use smaller photos. Sheesh! I wouldn't mess around with fixing them, I'd replace the amp with another plate or something like the iNuke. I've got a guide for all the parts you'll need if you go with a traditional amp (recommended). Just be aware the iNukes have noisy fans.
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It looks like these blue guys got cooked. Are these the power supply caps? Would it be easier/more beneficial to power the subs with an external amp or try to replace what got fried? My wife's worried about them catching on fire, literally, and I'm definitely an amateur when it comes to this type of stuff.
I will second dreamliner's caution. I am an electronics technician and without training and test equipment, there's really no way to know if the caps are the only components that were damaged. Fire is a serious concern with replacing components. You need schematics and test point readings to be sure once you're done.

I would recommend an external amp. for sure. It's not going to be easy, but it's doable.
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post #20930 of 20930 Old 08-26-2017, 08:44 PM
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In knew something was not working with my subs (two Epik Towers), but hadn't had time to mess with them, and then saw the failure threads. So...

Didn't want to take a chance on having another internal amp go bad, and didn't want to fix the old one. So, I did the following:

1) pulled the power plug inlet out leaving a rectangular hole;
2) cut a piece of plywood to cover the power hole and drilled a 1" hole for a speakon plug (found the high amp version);
3) pulled off the leads to the old plug and soldered them onto the speakon receiver, then sealed them to the old amp;
4) bought a Crown XLi3500 and speakon cables.

I set the amp channel dials to 11 o'clock and ran the room correction (Pioneer). It ended up balancing them at -8db, and the sound was fantastic so I guess the 3500 has plenty of power to spare. The signal light flash because the signal is so low, and I guess I'm a mile away from clipping. Put on Force Awakens for the interrogation scenes and it shook the room nicely. The Crown fans are somewhat audible when turned on right by the amp, but even when the movie went silent I couldn't here anything at all.

Thanks for the help of everyone here for the tips.
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