Official SVS Ultra 13 thread - Page 347 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 05-27-2014, 04:00 AM
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For those that don't have duals, and have not measured to understand why they should get two good duals over one great sub(if you can't afford a 2nd):

 

 

Guess what a single PB13 Ultra is going to look like.....basically the same thing...an uneven response, a big null at 50 Hz, and a very similar sound that plays the same bad FR a little bit louder at max volume.  The PB2000, as you can see, plays solid down to below 16 Hz....you won't miss anything of importance on movies with that extension.  That is why two PB2000's, if you have placement options, may be a better option than a single PB13Ultra.  Now your room likely won't look exactly like mine, but you will have your own problems that can only be fixed completely by dual subs.  By the way, I thought the single PB2000 sounded great....doesn't change the fact that it now sounds even better that I have duals and a flat response with smooth even bass throughout the room.

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Old 05-27-2014, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post

So if I look at the measurements for the PB2000 and add 3dB for duals it still comes up quite a bit short of a single PC13-Ultra. I just have to decide if the extra output is needed or if the symmetry/ aesthetics of duals is more preferred. Unfortunately I simply can't consider dual Ultras.

This is a false perception of how dual subs work.  Doubling excursion(+3dB) and power(+3dB), adds 6 dB of output as a matter of scientific fact.  Proper placement in your room will determine how much of the 6 dB increase will be perceived at the MLP due to the interaction of sound waves and cancellation.  It will not, of course, yield a flat 6 dB increase across the entire FR of the single sub, because it smooths out the response.  Where you have a big null, you might gain 15+ dB of output.  Where you had a peak, you might gain none, or even be down a bit.  Averaged across the FR, you still gain 6 dB.  If you are only getting three, it is due to bad placement.  Would be the same as taking one of your main speakers and firing it away from you into the wall, and stating they image poorly.  Do they image poorly, or is it poor placement?

 

So with duals and good placement, you get the 4-6 dB increase, and fill large 10-15dB nulls that even a single $4k sub cannot.

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Old 05-27-2014, 04:28 AM
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Or, stated another way, 2 sub will double the overhead or power, and now you have 2x the displacement. Dual subs are the way to go even if max spl is slightly lower. Uneven bass in a room get's annoying.
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Old 05-27-2014, 07:32 AM
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Dual subs will give a 3db boost of SPL when NOT co-located.

Put the sub together and you get the 6db boost.

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Old 05-27-2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

This is a false perception of how dual subs work.  Doubling excursion(+3dB) and power(+3dB), adds 6 dB of output as a matter of scientific fact.  

Bear… do you have any links to technical articles for more reading on this? I understand the placement implications you discuss, but not sure I fully understand how SPL with multiple sources works… it makes sense to me that displacement (vs. excursion) is what matters, and that the SPL is only tied to amplifier power through displacement in the linear excursion region. Thus, with two identical sources, while you have twice the power and twice the excursion, you also only have twice the displacement, which would lead to 3dB? Not saying your wrong, as I've seen 6dB almost everywhere, just trying to understand why. thx.

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Old 05-27-2014, 10:12 AM
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Twice the power equals a 3db boost.

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Old 05-27-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

Dual subs will give a 3db boost of SPL when NOT co-located.

Put the sub together and you get the 6db boost.

Incorrect.

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Old 05-27-2014, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

Twice the power equals a 3db boost.

Correct. Doubling power adds 3 dB.  Doubling excursion adds 3 dB.  Doubling drivers and power(dual subs) adds 6 dB.  Mutually coupled(co-located is not the correct term, acoustically), you will get an exact 6 dB increase at the MLP across the entire frequency response(regardless of how poor it is).

 

When spread apart, the 6 dB increase that dual subs produce(that amount does not magically change when you move one sub around in the room), may or may not result in an exact 6 dB increase at a specific MLP due to the interaction, amplification, and cancellation of sound waves at the MLP.  It is possible to get as little as a 3 dB increase at the MLP if you set them up poorly due to improper phase and improper placement.  The six dB of output increase is still floating around the room so to speak.  If this is the case, it simply means you need to correct your placement and or phase issues.  You should get at least 4-5 dB gain or you are doing something wrong or are terribly limited with very poor placement options.

 

The blanket statement of mutually coupled = exactly 6 dB and spread out = exactly 3 dB is a totally incorrect misunderstanding.  The truth is that with proper spreading of dual subs, you can get the full 6 dB increase at the MLP along with the FR smoothing benefits.  Don't assume that you automatically pay a magical output penalty by moving the sub.

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Old 05-27-2014, 10:54 AM
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What does "excursion" have anything to do with anything. So, two subs with the same power but, one doesn't have the excursion of the other has less output?

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Old 05-27-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

What does "excursion" have anything to do with anything. So, two subs with the same power but, one doesn't have the excursion of the other has less output?
I think the proper term here would be displacement… for a given cone area, excursion determines SPL… the power required to achieve that excursion will vary from system to system. Given two identical subwoofers, the same SPL could be reached at half the power (and half the excursion) on each amplifier (assuming they are operating in the linear excursion region), but the total power used would be the same, as would the displacement… response smoothing aside, this would results in a number of other benefits as well (e.g. lower distortion). I'm still not clear on the additive aspect (6dB) though… if anyone can point me to some sources/equations, I'd be thankful.

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Old 05-27-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Incorrect.

You are incorrect.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1448465/single-subwoofer-vs-dual-subwoofers

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Old 05-27-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Doubling power(if you have enough excursion), adds 3 dB.  Doubling excursion adds 3 dB.  Doubling excursion and power(dual subs) adds 6 dB.
Doubling power is 3dB, but doubling excursion is 6dB.
In order to double excursion with one driver you must double voltage swing. When you double voltage swing you quadruple power (Ohms Law) and that gets you 6dB. If you use two subs to realize the doubling of displacement (rather than one with double the voltage swing) you still get 6dB.
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What does "excursion" have anything to do with anything. So, two subs with the same power but, one doesn't have the excursion of the other has less output?
Cone excursion is what creates the sound waves that you hear. Excursion in and of itself does not determine SPL, displacement (excursion x cone area) does. Higher displacement equals higher SPL. You can have two subs fed the same power with totally different displacement and therefore totally different SPL as well.
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Dual subs will give a 3db boost of SPL when NOT co-located.
Co-location is when you put various computer components and peripherals in the same room. There is no such thing as co-located speakers. Speakers placed less than 1/4 wavelength apart are mutually coupled. When that is done they realize 6dB maximum output gain with each doubling of speaker count in a totally linear fashion. If separated by more than 1/4 wavelength their combined outputs are no longer linear, but is one-half of their energy output is not 'lost'. The engineering credentials of sources that state otherwise, or for that matter even use the term 'co-located' with respect to speakers, should be considered suspect.

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Old 05-27-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post


You are incorrect.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1448465/single-subwoofer-vs-dual-subwoofers

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just trying to help clear up your misunderstanding for you.  Please read post 3 and 6 in the link you provided.  I would trust what Bill Fitzmaurice says.  Only reason I am trying to help is that I saw your misunderstanding repeated by so many that I thought that is how it worked also.

 

I mainly would not want people trying to learn this stuff think that they have to mutually couple dual subs in order to get a good increase in output, as that would sacrifice the likely larger benefit of a smoother response that requires spreading the subs out as much as possible.

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Old 05-27-2014, 12:34 PM
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I have 4 subwoofers in co-located pairs ( side by side cylinders). With one pair operating I receive a 6db increase (via a spl meter). With all 4 operating I should receive a 12 db total increase, but due to room gain I actually get an overall 15 db increase!
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:35 PM
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Nice rampage! Free dB FTW!!

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just trying to help clear up your misunderstanding for you.  Please read post 3 and 6 in the link you provided.  I would trust what Bill Fitzmaurice says.  Only reason I am trying to help is that I saw your misunderstanding repeated by so many that I thought that is how it worked also.

I mainly would not want people trying to learn this stuff think that they have to mutually couple dual subs in order to get a good increase in output, as that would sacrifice the likely larger benefit of a smoother response that requires spreading the subs out as much as possible.

That's why I posted that link. I trust Bill's word.

With you, I got turned around by your use of excursion. Doubling the excursion, to me means a speaker cone moves out twice as much. Made no sense to me. Doubling of the cone area (or displacement) I understand.

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:26 PM
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I was replying to your statement that when not mutually coupled, dual subs only add 3 dB of output.  This is incorrect.  My terminology may have gotten mixed up a bit, but the point is that dual subs add 6 dB of output, and does not require mutual coupling.  As long as we all arrive at a better understanding in order to improve our system is what matters.  :)  Without AVS forums, I certainly would not have dual subs.

 

Sorry for the confusion about my use of the term excursion.  I meant that with a second matching sub, you get twice as much excursion, and therefore twice the displacement since the drivers are identical.

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Old 05-27-2014, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

I was replying to your statement that when not mutually coupled, dual subs only add 3 dB of output.  This is incorrect.  My terminology may have gotten mixed up a bit, but the point is that dual subs add 6 dB of output, and does not require mutual coupling.  As long as we all arrive at a better understanding in order to improve our system is what matters.  smile.gif   Without AVS forums, I certainly would not have dual subs.

Sorry for the confusion about my use of the term excursion.  I meant that with a second matching sub, you get twice as much excursion, and therefore twice the displacement since the drivers are identical.

Incorrect. Sucks when someone says that and doesn't explain.

As Bill Fitzmaurice said the speakers have to be within 1/4 wavelength in order to still keep the 6db gain. Farther than that and the woofers' motion is not linear. Then, I lost him. But, I think this will result in less than a 6db gain.

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Old 05-27-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post


Incorrect. Sucks when someone says that and doesn't explain.

As Bill Fitzmaurice said the speakers have to be within 1/4 wavelength in order to still keep the 6db gain. Farther than that and the woofers' motion is not linear. Then, I lost him. But, I think this will result in less than a 6db gain.

I did attempt to explain it in two different posts.  You still don't understand, and my intention is not to argue.  Ultimately, whether you believe it or not, dual subs adds 6 dB of output regardless of where they are placed in the room.  The key is placing them optimally so that the as much of the 6 dB of increased output is realized at the MLP as possible, and acheiving the smoothest FR as possible prior to eq.  If they are placed poorly, you can end up with a lot of cancellation.  This means you need to work on placement.  Think of it like a set of speakers that images extremely well, but you place one in your closet.  Does it image well anymore?  No, but it is due to poor placement.  Same goes for dual subs.

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Old 05-27-2014, 03:18 PM
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Well I'm convinced to go with duals now. smile.gif

Thanks bear!

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Old 05-27-2014, 03:21 PM
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Have you decided which subs to get?  Maybe you should start a thread stating your room size(dimensions), intended usage, and expectations to get varying opinions on which subs to take a gander at?

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Old 05-27-2014, 04:07 PM
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I would absolutely LOVE dual PB12-Pluses, but I'm just not sure I want to spend anywhere near that kind of money just on subs. I need to have money to buy new speakers and receiver. I will probably end up with the PB2000s.

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Old 05-28-2014, 07:26 AM
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Well, after giving it more thought I will go with the dual PB12-Pluses. Only thing is, I will have to space purchasing them far apart. I will buy the first one next year, then upgrade my receiver, then my speakers and finally add the second sub. Gonna take some time but I'd rather do it right and have no regrets!smile.gif

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Old 06-02-2014, 12:45 PM
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I need your expert opinion on whether or not the "old" SVS PB-13 Ultra with the 750w BASH amp is still significantly better than the PB-12 PLUS.

I have an opportunity to buy 2 used PB-13 Ultras for $2200 for the pair but am not sure about the older 750w BASH ones.
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Old 06-02-2014, 02:20 PM
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I upgraded from 750W BASH to the new Sledge amp.

The sledge offers a few new features - 1 more channel of PEQ, adjustable slope on high and low pass, digital volume control rather than pot which can get dirty/noisy. However the BASH amp is easier to use, can adjust without having direct line of sight with plate amp..with the sledge amp you need to be able to see the display.

There has been some reliability issues with the BASH amps, and they aren't cheap to replace. They cannot be repaired, unlike old type class AB subwoofer amplifiers ie those used on BK and Rel.

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Old 06-02-2014, 02:27 PM
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Which would you rather buy, two used PB-13 Ultra 750w BASH subs or two PB-12 Plus subs from SVS "outlet" stock?

These would be used primarily for theater only.
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Old 06-02-2014, 02:36 PM
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The Ultra's are the better quality sub, however no warranty, compared to 5 years..also expensive to replace one, or both amps. Doubt two would fail but I'd have it in my mind one could fail. I think Ultra amps are $600 each.

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Old 06-02-2014, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimaonliner View Post

Which would you rather buy, two used PB-13 Ultra 750w BASH subs or two PB-12 Plus subs from SVS "outlet" stock?

These would be used primarily for theater only.

Two PB12 Pluses @ $1,249 each from the outlet ... that's a lot of bass there.  For $300 more than the pair of older PB13Ultras, you'll have their 5 year bumper to bumper warranty and the peace of mind that goes with it.

 

To echo the sentiments of fatbottom, the first thing that comes to mind regarding the Bash amps is the reliability issues I've read about and how the new Sledge amps are a significant improvement.

 

At 800watts RMS each, again, that's a lot of subwoofer you'd be getting in the PB12 Pluses ... I have a single PC12 Plus and it's a very capable performer.

 

I wonder how old the Ultras are ...

 

Dual PC12 Pluses sell for $2,279 ... Dual PB12 Pluses sell for $2,649 ( so the outlet pair would save you $150 )

 

At the moment, there are 3 PB12+s in piano black and one has very little cosmetic damage ... there's a single PB12+ in the oak finish

 

I think you could do a lot better than that pair of older PB Ultras ...

 

Looking forward to reading which way you decided to go ... best wishes :-)


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Old 06-02-2014, 03:26 PM
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Thanks for the great advice! The old PB-13 Ultras looks really nice with some kind of cherry wood finish (?rose nut?) and are supposed to have been used for 2 years and put in storage for 3 more years.
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Old 06-02-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimaonliner View Post

I need your expert opinion on whether or not the "old" SVS PB-13 Ultra with the 750w BASH amp is still significantly better than the PB-12 PLUS.

I have an opportunity to buy 2 used PB-13 Ultras for $2200 for the pair but am not sure about the older 750w BASH ones.

PB13-Ultra 750w and 800w PB12-Plus DSP, are working in the same league. There is only 1.5 dB difference from one to another, I doubt that is achieved notice any difference between the two, except that it is measured.
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