Official SVS Ultra 13 thread - Page 356 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10651 of 10680 Old 06-27-2015, 09:27 PM
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^^what kind of 18" s?
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post #10652 of 10680 Old Yesterday, 12:12 PM
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I need help calibrating my two SVS PC-13Ultras. I have an Onkyo TX-NR809 receiver.

It's been awhile since I did the Audysey calibration, but I just moved my two SVS's w/in my room, so did a re-calibration. The FIRST step of the process in Audysey it has me set my gain on the subs so it reads 75db on the on screen readings. I know to do each sub individually to 75 db, then turn them both on to run Audysey.

My question is this. I like to run my subs hot, around 85DB. So at the opening screen, should I set them there to 85db, even though it's asking me to set to 75db. OR should I set them to 75db, run audyssey, then after Audysey is done use my external radio shack db meter, make adjustments to set it to 85db?

When I did it over the weekend, I think my starting point was 80 db, ran Audysey, then made some adjustments at the end to bump up to 85db. After I got done, I wondered if i should'be had my starting point at 75 like it was asking.

Thanks for any assistance!!!
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post #10653 of 10680 Old Yesterday, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCSchoch View Post
I need help calibrating my two SVS PC-13Ultras. I have an Onkyo TX-NR809 receiver.

It's been awhile since I did the Audysey calibration, but I just moved my two SVS's w/in my room, so did a re-calibration. The FIRST step of the process in Audysey it has me set my gain on the subs so it reads 75db on the on screen readings. I know to do each sub individually to 75 db, then turn them both on to run Audysey.

My question is this. I like to run my subs hot, around 85DB. So at the opening screen, should I set them there to 85db, even though it's asking me to set to 75db. OR should I set them to 75db, run audyssey, then after Audysey is done use my external radio shack db meter, make adjustments to set it to 85db?

When I did it over the weekend, I think my starting point was 80 db, ran Audysey, then made some adjustments at the end to bump up to 85db. After I got done, I wondered if i should'be had my starting point at 75 like it was asking.

Thanks for any assistance!!!
I can't imagine subs being 10 dB hot sounding anywhere near good, but if that is truly your goal, set each sub to 80 dB. This should give you about 85 dB when summed if they are in phase. Audysey should then set your sub level to around -10. Bump your sub trim up to zero and this should give you the +10dB boomy bass fest you desire.
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post #10654 of 10680 Old Yesterday, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I can't imagine subs being 10 dB hot sounding anywhere near good, but if that is truly your goal, set each sub to 80 dB. This should give you about 85 dB when summed if they are in phase. Audysey should then set your sub level to around -10. Bump your sub trim up to zero and this should give you the +10dB boomy bass fest you desire.
I run my 2xUltras very hot too.. Ill try ur suggestion and report back with findings...

Btw, can I use my audessey mic with REW?

Janus
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post #10655 of 10680 Old Yesterday, 09:18 PM
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post #10656 of 10680 Old Today, 12:49 AM
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Thx mate
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post #10657 of 10680 Old Today, 02:34 AM
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Sorry maybe a dumb question.
SVS subs how often are they released? And when was the last release?
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post #10658 of 10680 Old Today, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by James Corrigan View Post
Sorry maybe a dumb question.
SVS subs how often are they released? And when was the last release?
James -- in terms of the Ultra, this design has been around for for about 8 years. The only significant change it has seen since it's introduction, is the upgrade to the SLEDGE amp platform that are now used, and the introduction of the SB13 line (several years ago) that uses a modified version of the driver used in the ported PB13. That aside, this is a primarily unchanged design since introduction...

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post #10659 of 10680 Old Today, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I can't imagine subs being 10 dB hot sounding anywhere near good, but if that is truly your goal, set each sub to 80 dB. This should give you about 85 dB when summed if they are in phase. Audysey should then set your sub level to around -10. Bump your sub trim up to zero and this should give you the +10dB boomy bass fest you desire.
To clarify, sounds like you mean when Audysey asks to set to 75dB, set each individual sub to 80db, then turn both on and begin Audysey, correct? If so, that's exactly what I did.

FYI, think my #'s came out to be Audysey set my subs to about -4, then with my gain on each sub set to -7 or -8, that gives me my 85dB desired output with my Radio Shack SPL meter.

Curious - I've always run my dual ultras at 85dB, do most people not run their subs hot or do a lot of people run all speakers at 75dB?

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post #10660 of 10680 Old Today, 05:49 AM
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I've just done audessy with my PB13U and my DIY PB13U side by side. I set them up separately at 79-80db
What suprised me was that the DYI PB13U I lowered the sledge gain to -22.
The original SVS PB13U is set that -13 I guess that just shows how different the sound is in different cabinets but with same woofer and amp.
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post #10661 of 10680 Old Today, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CCSchoch View Post
To clarify, sounds like you mean when Audysey asks to set to 75dB, set each individual sub to 80db, then turn both on and begin Audysey, correct? If so, that's exactly what I did.

FYI, think my #'s came out to be Audysey set my subs to about -4, then with my gain on each sub set to -7 or -8, that gives me my 85dB desired output with my Radio Shack SPL meter.

Curious - I've always run my dual ultras at 85dB, do most people not run their subs hot or do a lot of people run all speakers at 75dB?
If you have the subs running hot prior to calibration i.e. each sub at 80 dB, they should sum to about 85 when played together. Audysey will then lower the subwoofer level by 10 dB to achieve a 75 dB calibration. If Audysey is setting them to -4 you are calibrated flat at -4. Do not touch the gain on the subs at this point. If you want to run them hot, adjust the AVR subwoofer trim i.e. from -4 to 0 would have you 4 dB hot. If you want it hotter than that, I would turn your sub gain up a little bit more prior to Audysey and shoot for a sub trim of -8 to -10. Then you can turn your subs up to taste via the AVR. However, if you have both subs set to 80 dB, and when both playing Audysey is only setting them to -4, it sounds like the subs may be cancelling each other out rather than summing. Use your SPL meter to see that the subs are working in unison prior to Audysey. With each set to 80, SPL should go up 4-6 db with both playing. If they are out of phase and working against each other, it could be why you are running them so drastically hot.

I think most people do run their subs hot, perhaps 3-6 dB. 10 should not sound good unless you have a very poor FR with nulls or the subs are not in phase.
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post #10662 of 10680 Old Today, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
If you have the subs running hot prior to calibration i.e. each sub at 80 dB, they should sum to about 85 when played together. Audysey will then lower the subwoofer level by 10 dB to achieve a 75 dB calibration. If Audysey is setting them to -4 you are calibrated flat at -4. Do not touch the gain on the subs at this point. If you want to run them hot, adjust the AVR subwoofer trim i.e. from -4 to 0 would have you 4 dB hot. If you want it hotter than that, I would turn your sub gain up a little bit more prior to Audysey and shoot for a sub trim of -8 to -10. Then you can turn your subs up to taste via the AVR. However, if you have both subs set to 80 dB, and when both playing Audysey is only setting them to -4, it sounds like the subs may be cancelling each other out rather than summing. Use your SPL meter to see that the subs are working in unison prior to Audysey. With each set to 80, SPL should go up 4-6 db with both playing. If they are out of phase and working against each other, it could be why you are running them so drastically hot.

I think most people do run their subs hot, perhaps 3-6 dB. 10 should not sound good unless you have a very poor FR with nulls or the subs are not in phase.
1. My subs are in phase and not cancelling each other out. I learned this the HARD WAY last year as I had to get SVS involved and open one of the subs up to reverse the wires since one sub was wired one way and the other wired the opposite.

2. I was always told / read on here to NEVER touch the subs gain again after running audysey. But after a lengthy dissussion with Ed at SVS, he said it was perfectly fine to adjust the gain at the sub after running audysey. So, I no longer live by the rule to not touch the sub gain again. That said, I don't adjust it a TON after audyssey, but like i said, after running audyssey, to get it to desired 85dB I do adjust both the AVR and the subs gain when using the SPL meter.
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If you are using an SPL meter you should be ok, having said that, I think it makes more sense to adjust in the AVR from the MLP, so you can actually hear what the change sounds like. When adjusting on the sub you really have no idea what the change is doing to the sound at the MLP so I don't understand that logic when a better and easier method can be used(just bump AVR trim the exact, desired amount while listening from the MLP)

How are your subs placed, symmetrically in the front of the room for looks or spread about for the best FR?
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post #10664 of 10680 Old Today, 01:20 PM
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James -- in terms of the Ultra, this design has been around for for about 8 years. The only significant change it has seen since it's introduction, is the upgrade to the SLEDGE amp platform that are now used, and the introduction of the SB13 line (several years ago) that uses a modified version of the driver used in the ported PB13. That aside, this is a primarily unchanged design since introduction...
So how can an 8 year sub still be relevant compared to some of the brands that update every couple of years ?
Really sorry for the pointed question, looking at purchasing one but have been bitten twice with models coming out just after i purchased them. Or having an inferior product due to age when other subs at the same price point are better.
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post #10665 of 10680 Old Today, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by James Corrigan View Post
So how can an 8 year sub still be relevant compared to some of the brands that update every couple of years ?
Really sorry for the pointed question, looking at purchasing one but have been bitten twice with models coming out just after i purchased them. Or having an inferior product due to age when other subs at the same price point are better.
Buying a sub just before another is released is possible (and typical) throughout the industry. The subwoofer industry is changing, and for the better. But that “old” SB13-Ultra I bought 2 years ago puts many new subwoofers to shame on music. A good sub is a good sub, whether it was released 5 years ago or yesterday.

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post #10666 of 10680 Old Today, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
If you are using an SPL meter you should be ok, having said that, I think it makes more sense to adjust in the AVR from the MLP, so you can actually hear what the change sounds like. When adjusting on the sub you really have no idea what the change is doing to the sound at the MLP so I don't understand that logic when a better and easier method can be used(just bump AVR trim the exact, desired amount while listening from the MLP)

How are your subs placed, symmetrically in the front of the room for looks or spread about for the best FR?
What's MLP?

My subs used to be in the front corers of the room, about 14 feet apart, 15 feet from seating ares.... but I just rearranged for cosmetic reasons and they're now about 3 feet closer to the seating area, still on opposite walls though. That's what caused me to re-run the audysey.
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post #10667 of 10680 Old Today, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by James Corrigan View Post
So how can an 8 year sub still be relevant compared to some of the brands that update every couple of years ?
Really sorry for the pointed question, looking at purchasing one but have been bitten twice with models coming out just after i purchased them. Or having an inferior product due to age when other subs at the same price point are better.
James -- the success of the Ultra, and the fact that it is still relevant, is a testament to what a spectacular piece of engineering and design this product is and was at the time of its inception. That being said, the SVS of today is a much different company than the SVS of 8-9 years ago. So the value is all in the eye of the beholder (as always), and what they consider to be the important factors in deciding to purchase a product.

That being said, those here who follow things closely will admit this is a proven, well built package -- with a high fit and finish to accompany it. At the same time, no one will argue that you can indeed buy more performance for less money from other ID company offerings. It depends what your looking for...

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post #10668 of 10680 Old Today, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Chopin_Guy View Post
James -- the success of the Ultra, and the fact that it is still relevant, is a testament to what a spectacular piece of engineering and design this product is and was at the time of its inception. That being said, the SVS of today is a much different company than the SVS of 8-9 years ago. So the value is all in the eye of the beholder (as always), and what they consider to be the important factors in deciding to purchase a product.

That being said, those here who follow things closely will admit this is a proven, well built package -- with a high fit and finish to accompany it. At the same time, no one will argue that you can indeed buy more performance for less money from other ID company offerings. It depends what your looking for...
Hate to chime in here and do not want to be considered a troll or hijacking the conversation, but...

I have had 2 SVS subs, an original PC-Plus 20/39 and then a few years back I bought a PC13-Ultra (older BASH amp design). I love my Ultra and have been considering dual subs now and realize all ID players now chewing away at SVS' market space. Just the 3 I am looking at HSU VTF-15 mkII, Rythmik FV15HP and the PSA V1500, all seem to be able to produce the same or better results as SVS PC/PB Ultra. I get the SVS is all about customer service and 2 of the 3 I mentioned are not in the same customer service space, but clearly PSA is. And I am sure Tom V. has a well engineered product with customer service to match. Sure SVS has been around longer,

I am serious and not trying to pick fights, I want to stay SVS, but I am struggling to see what all the extra $$$ gets me. Dual PB13-Ultras are $3800 and P dual PC-Ultras are $3200!! Yikes! I seriously am trying to understand the justification for the extra cash. Again please I am not trying to troll or fight, I just need some help justifying SVS over at least the other 3 I mentioned. I will apologize in advance if the thread gets off track and respects the moderators if they delete posts if people can not have a serious conversation about this in a positive way.
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post #10669 of 10680 Old Today, 03:19 PM
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Hate to chime in here and do not want to be considered a troll or hijacking the conversation, but...

I have had 2 SVS subs, an original PC-Plus 20/39 and then a few years back I bought a PC13-Ultra (older BASH amp design). I love my Ultra and have been considering dual subs now and realize all ID players now chewing away at SVS' market space. Just the 3 I am looking at HSU VTF-15 mkII, Rythmik FV15HP and the PSA V1500, all seem to be able to produce the same or better results as SVS PC/PB Ultra. I get the SVS is all about customer service and 2 of the 3 I mentioned are not in the same customer service space, but clearly PSA is. And I am sure Tom V. has a well engineered product with customer service to match. Sure SVS has been around longer,

I am serious and not trying to pick fights, I want to stay SVS, but I am struggling to see what all the extra $$$ gets me. Dual PB13-Ultras are $3800 and P dual PC-Ultras are $3200!! Yikes! I seriously am trying to understand the justification for the extra cash. Again please I am not trying to troll or fight, I just need some help justifying SVS over at least the other 3 I mentioned. I will apologize in advance if the thread gets off track and respects the moderators if they delete posts if people can not have a serious conversation about this in a positive way.
While this is a SVS Ultra thread, there is no law that states one cannot have an opinion about another company and their products. And from your post, you are not looking for drama . Hey, I own both SVS and PSA subs and I think both companies are great. I’ve auditioned a Hsu sub. I’ve auditioned a couple of JL Audio subs and a Paradigm Sub 1. I was fortunate to hear and audition a Deep Sea Sound 24-inch Mariana sub. I will be auditioning another PSA in my home next week. All companies and their products have their pluses and minuses. I just wish I had time to audition several other subs, like those from Rythmik and Reaction Audio. We live in a great time as far as audio is concerned.
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While this is a SVS Ultra thread, there is no law that states one cannot have an opinion about another company and their products. And from your post, you are not looking for drama . Hey, I own both SVS and PSA subs and I think both companies are great. I’ve auditioned a Hsu sub. I’ve auditioned a couple of JL Audio subs and a Paradigm Sub 1. I was fortunate to hear and audition a Deep Sea Sound 24-inch Mariana sub. I will be auditioning another PSA in my home next week. All companies and their products have their pluses and minuses. I just wish I had time to audition several other subs, like those from Rythmik and Reaction Audio. We live in a great time as far as audio is concerned.
Tell us about the DEEP SEA Experience, please !!!
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Tell us about the DEEP SEA Experience, please !!!
Ahhh, David Gage’s monsters!! It was quite an experience, but David’s exhibit wasn’t the only exhibit that impressed. I got to finally hear the JL Audio G213 Gotham. Four of them! They were in a very large room and they rocked the place. David’s Marianna was in a regular room and was obviously much more difficult to setup. But that room rocked! Very impressive. David also allowed me to test his sub with some difficult music, and it wasn’t setup for music. The Mariana passed with flying colors. So here is David trying to compete with almost $50 grand worth of subs and probably 1/4 million in McIntosh equipment (gigantic amplifiers, preamplifiers, Line Array speakers and a very expensive projector), and he did it! Both exhibits were impressive and there were many smiles around both rooms.
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I can't imagine subs being 10 dB hot sounding anywhere near good, but if that is truly your goal, set each sub to 80 dB. This should give you about 85 dB when summed if they are in phase. Audysey should then set your sub level to around -10. Bump your sub trim up to zero and this should give you the +10dB boomy bass fest you desire.
I thought reference was 75db for the speakers and 85db for the lfe? Doesnt audyssey set the lfe to 85db when it calibrates, even though it uses a 75 db test tone for safety? Why would setting the sub to 85 db be bad if that's the case? Thx

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I thought reference was 75db for the speakers and 85db for the lfe? Doesnt audyssey set the lfe to 85db when it calibrates, even though it uses a 75 db test tone for safety? Why would setting the sub to 85 db be bad if that's the case? Thx
I think for calibration it uses 75 dB. When an LFE signal is sent it is 10 dB hotter. But you wouldn't want the subs at 85 dB and speakers at 75.....then your AVR would add another 10 dB for LFE. Pretty sure you calibrate to 75 so that it is calibrated flat with your speakers for music and regular bass that is sent to the sub below the crossover. Then you can turn the sub up a few dB to taste as flat calibration is often not "bassy" enough for many.
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Hate to chime in here and do not want to be considered a troll or hijacking the conversation, but...

I have had 2 SVS subs, an original PC-Plus 20/39 and then a few years back I bought a PC13-Ultra (older BASH amp design). I love my Ultra and have been considering dual subs now and realize all ID players now chewing away at SVS' market space. Just the 3 I am looking at HSU VTF-15 mkII, Rythmik FV15HP and the PSA V1500, all seem to be able to produce the same or better results as SVS PC/PB Ultra. I get the SVS is all about customer service and 2 of the 3 I mentioned are not in the same customer service space, but clearly PSA is. And I am sure Tom V. has a well engineered product with customer service to match. Sure SVS has been around longer,

I am serious and not trying to pick fights, I want to stay SVS, but I am struggling to see what all the extra $$$ gets me. Dual PB13-Ultras are $3800 and P dual PC-Ultras are $3200!! Yikes! I seriously am trying to understand the justification for the extra cash. Again please I am not trying to troll or fight, I just need some help justifying SVS over at least the other 3 I mentioned. I will apologize in advance if the thread gets off track and respects the moderators if they delete posts if people can not have a serious conversation about this in a positive way.
The PB-13 Ultra still has a significant performance advantage over the three competitors that you mentioned. The FV15HP is not miles behind in every metric, but it WAS tested with the limiter disengaged which inflated the output numbers a bit. The PB-13Ultra also produced the output levels it did with much lower distortion than its competitors. There are not DB test #'s on the new Hsu or PSA subs but I gaurantee none of them will match the Ultra's 110 dB # at 20 Hz with incredibly low distortion. You also get the piano finish, 5 year warranty, and free shipping. With shipping and piano finish the Rythmik is only $200 or so cheaper. The PB-13 Ultra in 20 Hz tune puts out 110.6 dB @ 20Hz with 5% distortion, a level that it maintains throughout most of the bandwidth at maximum tested output. With a more powerful amp the Ultra would likely have quite a bit more maximum output potential, a testament to the quality of its 13.5" driver.

The only sub I have seen outside of DIY(pretty much all of them, even the cheaper ones) that stomps the SVS pretty hard is the Cap1400. It performs much, MUCH better, and at a lower cost.

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I think for calibration it uses 75 dB. When an LFE signal is sent it is 10 dB hotter. But you wouldn't want the subs at 85 dB and speakers at 75.....then your AVR would add another 10 dB for LFE. Pretty sure you calibrate to 75 so that it is calibrated flat with your speakers for music and regular bass that is sent to the sub below the crossover. Then you can turn the sub up a few dB to taste as flat calibration is often not "bassy" enough for many.
I think it also depends on the level that the source tones are recorded at. I use Disney WOW, where the band-limited tones are all recorded at -20dbSF (My search is kinda messed up, but that was confirmed by Roger Dressler a while back). So, a flat calibration equates to the sats at 85dB (105-20) and the sub at 95dB (115-20)

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I think for calibration it uses 75 dB. When an LFE signal is sent it is 10 dB hotter. But you wouldn't want the subs at 85 dB and speakers at 75.....then your AVR would add another 10 dB for LFE. Pretty sure you calibrate to 75 so that it is calibrated flat with your speakers for music and regular bass that is sent to the sub below the crossover. Then you can turn the sub up a few dB to taste as flat calibration is often not "bassy" enough for many.
Gotcha, so audyssey calibrates all speakers (sub included) to 75 db.... Its the signal in movies that creates the 10db boost in the lfe? So if he were to calibrate his sub to 85db, then his lfe would end up 20db higher than the speakers after the movie signal boosts the lfe? Thanks
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Correct, a flat calibration is just that...flat. In a perfect room, all frequencies would play at 75 dB from the sub's lower limit to the speakers upper limits i.e. 16-20k Hz. So yes when playing movies or content with an LFE signal it is 10dB hotter.

To take this a step further, this can be a useful tool to find out how much subwoofer capability one needs. If max listening level is -10 from reference for example, and one likes their sub(s) calibrated 5 hot, it would require the sub to be able to produce 110dB+ peaks without compression down to whatever frequency one desires accurate playback. This is why dual subs are often needed to even come close to meeting peoples output requirements. 110 dB at 16 Hz is not easily done by most commercial/retail subs.
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While this is a SVS Ultra thread, there is no law that states one cannot have an opinion about another company and their products. And from your post, you are not looking for drama . Hey, I own both SVS and PSA subs and I think both companies are great. I’ve auditioned a Hsu sub. I’ve auditioned a couple of JL Audio subs and a Paradigm Sub 1. I was fortunate to hear and audition a Deep Sea Sound 24-inch Mariana sub. I will be auditioning another PSA in my home next week. All companies and their products have their pluses and minuses. I just wish I had time to audition several other subs, like those from Rythmik and Reaction Audio. We live in a great time as far as audio is concerned.
The sb13u has a soft spot in my heart but the 3000i is suppose to be the real deal. Coming form the original XS30 to the newer sub should offer a significant upgrade from the original....how it compares to the SB13U in terms of accuracy, precision & control...remains to be seen...I suspect though...it may be very close and the 3000i should thoroughly dominate in the SPL department which can't be taken lightly. Can't wait to read your thoughts!

Good luck with the home trial & have a great upcoming holiday weekend ....


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Bear123, the max numbers you quoted above for the ultra (110.6 at 20hz with 5% distortion), is that at the mlp in room? I would think this is highly dependent on the room size right? If I have a 600 sq ft room, roughly how many db could I expect to achieve at the mlp with a single ultra?
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The sb13u has a soft spot in my heart but the 3000i is suppose to be the real deal. Coming form the original XS30 to the newer sub should offer a significant upgrade from the original....how it compares to the SB13U in terms of accuracy, precision & control...remains to be seen...I suspect though...it may be very close and the 3000i should thoroughly dominate in the SPL department which can't be taken lightly. Can't wait to read your thoughts!

Good luck with the home trial & have a great upcoming holiday weekend ....


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Thanks, Bill. It will be an interesting month for me, and I'll let you know the results.

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