Hooking up Subwoofer and settings? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 01-06-2008, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I will be getting an Pioneer Elite 94 receiver in a week or so and I have a few questions about hooking up a Klipsch subwoofer and settings? If this post needs to be moved to Receiver area I understand.

1)The main power switch has Off,On and Auto,I assume you set to Auto so subwoofer kicks on when needed.

2)There is a 2nd switch called a "Phase Switch" with an option for "0" or "180". What is this and which option should I use?

3)There are 2 set of connections, One is "Line In LFE" with 2 Female RCA connections labeled "R" and "L". Will there be 2 outputs from my receiver that connect here? Second one is "Speaker In" with "R" and "L" connection for speaker wire. Will this connection also be used?

4)There are 2 Dials, One is "Level" 1-10. I assume you set that to personal preference. Then there is a "Lowpass (Hz)" with 40,70,100 and 120 options. Do you set these dials to match some settings in the Receiver?

Sorry for all the questions but thanks for the help

RonH
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post #2 of 33 Old 01-06-2008, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonH54 View Post

I will be getting an Pioneer Elite 94 receiver in a week or so and I have a few questions about hooking up a Klipsch subwoofer and settings? If this post needs to be moved to Receiver area I understand.

1)The main power switch has Off,On and Auto,I assume you set to Auto so subwoofer kicks on when needed.

Correct.

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Originally Posted by RonH54 View Post

2)There is a 2nd switch called a "Phase Switch" with an option for "0" or "180". What is this and which option should I use?

"Phase" is esentially "time". When you set the Phase control to "0", you fire the positive displacement (forward motion) of the sub at the same time as the positive displacement of the rest of the speakers. When you set the Phase Control to "180", you fire the sub 180 degrees "out-of-phase" with the rest of the speakers. This means, when the speakers fire a positive displacement, the sub fires a negative displacement.

The setting is used to try to "blend" the output of your sub and your mains around the crossover point. If your mains are very close to the same distance to the listening position as the sub, "0" will probably work best. If your mains are a different distance than your sub, a "180" setting *may* work better. Try both and see. The one with the louder output is usually te better setting.

There is also a "distance" control in your receiver, which adds a delay, but that is a little different than the phase control on the sub.

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Originally Posted by RonH54 View Post

3)There are 2 set of connections, One is "Line In LFE" with 2 Female RCA connections labeled "R" and "L". Will there be 2 outputs from my receiver that connect here? Second one is "Speaker In" with "R" and "L" connection for speaker wire. Will this connection also be used?

Generally, you are better off using the RCA connections between the receiver and the sub. This will allow you to use the "Bass Management" (BM) built into the receiver. If your main speakers are not true "full-range" speakers, (if they don't have bass response to at least 30 Hz or less), you can use the BM to send all the deep bass to the sub. You can only do this with the RCA connections. If you use the speaker connections, you'll be limited to the BM in the sub, which is usually less functional than the BM in the receiver. (Check your receiver manual for details).

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Originally Posted by RonH54 View Post

4)There are 2 Dials, One is "Level" 1-10. I assume you set that to personal preference. Then there is a "Lowpass (Hz)" with 40,70,100 and 120 options. Do you set these dials to match some settings in the Receiver?

The "Level" control on the sub will be set in conjunction with the "Subwoofer/LFE" level setting in the receiver. You'll want to set it at about 25% to 50% of full output. Then run the Auto-Setup" routine in the receiver and it will set the "Subwoofer/LFE" output accordingly.

If you set things up as I described above, you'll want to turn off the "Lowpass Filter" in the sub. It is an external crossover. You'll be using the crossover in your receiver, and you don't need, (or even want), to use two crossovers. If it can't be turned off, at least turn it up to it's highest setting.

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Sorry for all the questions but thanks for the help

RonH

Good luck, and come back with any more questions. We'll try to help.

Craig

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post #3 of 33 Old 01-06-2008, 08:04 PM
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Great suggestions. Don't think there's much I can add to that, other than be sure to experiment with placement if at all possible. Placement dramatically affects subwoofer performance, so try various locations and see which one works best for you.
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post #4 of 33 Old 01-06-2008, 08:31 PM
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If you set things up as I described above, you'll want to turn off the "Lowpass Filter" in the sub. It is an external crossover. You'll be using the crossover in your receiver, and you don't need, (or even want), to use two crossovers. If it can't be turned off, at least turn it up to it's highest setting.



Good luck, and come back with any more questions. We'll try to help.

Craig




A quick question on the above information. I had set up my subwoofers crossover to match my receiver but you're saying that I should basically turn the crossover up to the highest setting (effectively eliminating the second crossover) and this is a superior solution to matching the two? Is this due to the fact that the receivers crossover is the primary or dominant source here?

Thanks!
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post #5 of 33 Old 01-06-2008, 08:37 PM
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Yes, the receiver should be what's controlling the crossover. Here are a couple reasons...

First, the crossover on the subwoofer should be used with speaker wire connections. If you're running stereo speakers with a subwoofer and your receiver doesn't have a crossover, the subwoofer can effectively be crossed over and only send the other speakers the frequencies above its crossover. The subwoofer will be connected via two sets of speaker wire to the receiver, and the left and right speakers will be connected to the subwoofer. This gives the subwoofer the ability to control what frequencies get passed on to your main speakers. However, if you connect via LFE, the subwoofer isn't actually communicating with the other speakers, since they aren't connected to it. So if I set my subwoofer's crossover to 80hz, it doesn't mean the other speakers will cease to play down to their limits. In essence, the speakers will continue to play their full range, while the subwoofer will play only up to the crossover. So the subwoofer is being affected by the crossover, but the other speakers are not. This can cause phase and cancellation issues, as well as causing some bass to become overemphasized.

Second, crossovers are not a brick wall. If my crossover is set at 80hz, it doesn't mean the subwoofer plays up to 80hz and stops, while the other speakers play everything over 80hz, and stop abruptly at 80hz without playing any lower. Rather, crossovers slope responses. So if the crossover is at 24db/octave, it means that if the crossover is at 80hz, by the time the frequency gets to 160hz (1 octave above 80hz), the subwoofer will be down 24db of output. However, not all crossovers are the same slope. So if one is an 18dB per octave crossover, and another is 24dB per octave, they might interact in bad ways. Using multiple crossovers might not always cause problems, but it creates potential problems, and unnecessary factors. In your case, just use the receiver's crossover, and disable the one on the subwoofer.
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post #6 of 33 Old 01-06-2008, 09:07 PM
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Thanks Lakersfan. I appreciate the information and will adjust my sub right away.

One more question if I may: My sub has what I guess you would call variable phase control, I can dial it anywhere between zero and 180 degrees. I currently have it set to zero- is this optimal in your opinion?

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I just got a new subwoofer for Xmas and am trying to tinker with the settings.
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post #7 of 33 Old 01-06-2008, 09:28 PM
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I do not mean to hijack the OP's thread but thought I might interject a quick question along these lines rather than start a new thread. Besides, I am hoping the free flow of informative info will continue!

My house was pre-wired for speakers. The installer placed a jack near the floor on the rear wall of my listening area. So, I'm locked in to using speaker wire IF I go that route and use that jack/location.

Although it is not optimal, what are my limitations and/or drawbacks? My assumption is that my A/V receiver will connect through it's sub/amp out via speaker wire to that jack and corresponding sub. Are there any subs recommended for this type of hookup (I was actually thinking about an Hsu)?

I might add that my setup in the den has the appropriate placement of the sub to the front and is connected to my receiver via subwoofer cable. I'm merely trying to work with what my "stone age" installer left me!

Apologies to the OP for trying to skim some advice here! Thanks in advance.

Wishlist - Emotiva amp, 2nd SVS sub, Panamax PC/SP...well, there is more!
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post #8 of 33 Old 01-07-2008, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that GREAT info.
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post #9 of 33 Old 01-07-2008, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightdawg View Post

A quick question on the above information. I had set up my subwoofers crossover to match my receiver but you're saying that I should basically turn the crossover up to the highest setting (effectively eliminating the second crossover) and this is a superior solution to matching the two? Is this due to the fact that the receivers crossover is the primary or dominant source here?

Thanks!

The primary reason *not* to use 2 crossovers is that each crossover is a filter. Each filter introduces some phase aberrations. Having 2 filters increases those phase issues multiple fold. Since you don't *need* 2 crossovers, it's best to disable the one in the sub, or at least set it so high that it doesn't have significant impact.

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post #10 of 33 Old 01-07-2008, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightdawg View Post

One more question if I may: My sub has what I guess you would call variable phase control, I can dial it anywhere between zero and 180 degrees. I currently have it set to zero- is this optimal in your opinion?

Setting it to "0" may or may not be optimal. The phase setting is used to "time" the sub and the mains so that both positive waves arrive at the listening position at the same time, (as do both negative waves). Since this only matters at the point where both sub and mains play the same frequency, the phase control is used to optimize the output of the sub and mains at the crossover frequency.

The best way to set a variable phase control is with an SPL meter and a test tone at the crossover frequency. (You can download test tones from the realtraps.com website.) Playing a tone at the crossover frequency, adjust the phase control for the highest output.

(When the waves arrive "out-of-phase" the positive and negative waves cancel each other and the sound level drops. When they arrive in-phase, they augment each other and the level increases. Therefore, the highest output point is the one with the best phase response.)

Craig

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post #11 of 33 Old 01-07-2008, 06:43 PM
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Thanks Craig for the great information, I appreciate it.
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post #12 of 33 Old 01-21-2008, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Generally, you are better off using the RCA connections between the receiver and the sub. This will allow you to use the "Bass Management" (BM) built into the receiver. If your main speakers are not true "full-range" speakers, (if they don't have bass response to at least 30 Hz or less), you can use the BM to send all the deep bass to the sub. You can only do this with the RCA connections. If you use the speaker connections, you'll be limited to the BM in the sub, which is usually less functional than the BM in the receiver. (Check your receiver manual for details).

One other question.... if there is only one RCA sub out on the receiver, is a "jumper" needed? IOW, do you connect the sub out on the receiver to one of the RCA "in" on the sub and then jumper the other RCA input. What I'm thinking about looks like a 'T'.

Mark
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post #13 of 33 Old 01-21-2008, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YMark View Post

One other question.... if there is only one RCA sub out on the receiver, is a "jumper" needed? IOW, do you connect the sub out on the receiver to one of the RCA "in" on the sub and then jumper the other RCA input. What I'm thinking about looks like a 'T'.

That has been discussed many times here, it's fine to just use one input.
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post #14 of 33 Old 03-18-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

The primary reason to start with 0 phase.

Craig

I am a newbee and need to understand more. I have a new sub, surround and AVR. I just hooked everything up to break in the speakers and ran a Audyssey setup on my receiver.

Now I am ready to move the sub to another location and want to do the setup right. How do I know if the sub (0 or 180) is the best place to put the switch?

Since this is a powered sub should i set the LFE switch to 120, 80, or 150.

If the Audyssey config comes back at say +8db should I lower the sub volume control and run Audyssey again? (I think I am trying to get the db to as close to 0 as possible....right?)

your help will be appreciated
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post #15 of 33 Old 03-18-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YMark View Post

One other question.... if there is only one RCA sub out on the receiver, is a "jumper" needed? IOW, do you connect the sub out on the receiver to one of the RCA "in" on the sub and then jumper the other RCA input. What I'm thinking about looks like a 'T'.

On my sub the LFE in has a Red (lright) and White (left). the instructions say to hook up 1 RCA to the Left input
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post #16 of 33 Old 03-18-2009, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatchet View Post

My house was pre-wired for speakers. The installer placed a jack near the floor on the rear wall of my listening area. So, I'm locked in to using speaker wire IF I go that route and use that jack/location.

Although it is not optimal, what are my limitations and/or drawbacks? My assumption is that my A/V receiver will connect through it's sub/amp out via speaker wire to that jack and corresponding sub. Are there any subs recommended for this type of hookup (I was actually thinking about an Hsu)?

Will you be able to use 2 channels of speaker wire? If not, you wil only be able to get one channel of info to the sub.

And using a speaker-level connection to your sub will require you to configure your A/V receiver very specifically (NO SUB) so that it routes the correct info to the sub via your front channel speaker outputs. In all likelyhood, this will force you to run your front speakers as LARGE which, depending upon their capabilities, could be far form optimal.


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I might add that my setup in the den has the appropriate placement of the sub to the front and is connected to my receiver via subwoofer cable. I'm merely trying to work with what my "stone age" installer left me!

So why do you need/want to change your configuration?

If you really want to try and connect the sub in the rear, you could try pulling the proper cabling with the existing speaker wire. Although, if conduit wasn't used (or even if conduit was used), the wire may stapled or tacked down to the studs and/or joists which will obviously make this impossible.

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post #17 of 33 Old 03-18-2009, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generallee View Post

I am a newbee and need to understand more. I have a new sub, surround and AVR. I just hooked everything up to break in the speakers and ran a Audyssey setup on my receiver.

Now I am ready to move the sub to another location and want to do the setup right. How do I know if the sub (0 or 180) is the best place to put the switch?

If you are using Audyssey, leave the switch alone. It doesn't really matter where you set it prior to running Audyssey, as Audyssey will properly set the sub's phase no matter what. But you might as well just set it to "0". Point being, Audyssey sets you sub's phase. So let it work its magic. And if the distance setting Audyssey chooses for your sub seems odd, do not change it. Audyssey "knows" what it is doing.


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Originally Posted by generallee View Post

Since this is a powered sub should i set the LFE switch to 120, 80, or 150.

Could you elaborate more upon this setting option? Is this an option at your subwoofer or in your receiver?



Quote:
Originally Posted by generallee View Post

If the Audyssey config comes back at say +8db should I lower the sub volume control and run Audyssey again? (I think I am trying to get the db to as close to 0 as possible....right?)

FYI, you would raise the sub's volume if you wanted Audyssey to use a lower setting for the sub's level trim.

But it doesn't really matter. It is all relative and (other than getting the direction you would need to go with the sub's volume knob) you seem to understand this. Personally, I prefer for my sub level trim to be close to (or at) "0".

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post #18 of 33 Old 03-18-2009, 02:36 PM
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[quote=sivadselim;16071604]


Could you elaborate more upon this setting option? Is this an option at your subwoofer or in your receiver?


QUOTE]

yes I have a knob. I understand that Audyssey will set the LFE at 80 so if the knob is at say 150 the LFE will be still 80 courtesy of Audyssey. But then I can go into the receiver and change it it 120 in the receiver should I want. In that case would I need to move the knob to 120 or just forget it and leave the knob at 150. This confuses me.
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post #19 of 33 Old 03-18-2009, 04:13 PM
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Leave it at 150 or "off" of you have the option.

The point is you don't want two cross-overs both triggering. If the sub cross-over is higher than the receivers all signals sent to the sub will be below its cross-over point.
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post #20 of 33 Old 03-18-2009, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generallee View Post

yes I have a knob. I understand that Audyssey will set the LFE at 80 so if the knob is at say 150 the LFE will be still 80 courtesy of Audyssey. But then I can go into the receiver and change it it 120 in the receiver should I want.

Why would you "want" to do this? Audyssey measures the in-room response of your speakers and sets an *appropriate* crossover. Why would you want to change it?

Quote:
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In that case would I need to move the knob to 120 or just forget it and leave the knob at 150. This confuses me.

At just stated, you only want to use *one* crossover. If you're using the one in the receiver, disable the one in the sub, (or set it to it's highest point.) Using two crossovers at the same frequency, or close to it, will cause phase problems.

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post #21 of 33 Old 03-18-2009, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Could you elaborate more upon this setting option? Is this an option at your subwoofer or in your receiver?

Quote:
Originally Posted by generallee View Post

yes I have a knob. I understand that Audyssey will set the LFE at 80 so if the knob is at say 150 the LFE will be still 80 courtesy of Audyssey. But then I can go into the receiver and change it it 120 in the receiver should I want. In that case would I need to move the knob to 120 or just forget it and leave the knob at 150. This confuses me.

Audyssey doesn't "set the LFE". Nor do I believe that the knob on your sub is called "LFE". I think that you may be confusing the terms "LFE" and "LPF". Your receiver may have a setting called "LPF of LFE". I do not think that Audyssey adjusts this setting. You should probably set this to 120Hz, manually

Audyssey will set an appropriate crossover setting in your receiver when you run it. This is a completely different setting from the "LPF of LFE" setting.

The knob on your sub may be called the "Crossover" or it may be called the "LPF" (low-pass filter). Either way, you should set it to the maximum setting. Or, turn it off or bypass it if you have that option.

What subwoofer do you have?

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post #22 of 33 Old 03-18-2009, 07:16 PM
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The knob is LPF the speaker is energy ESW-8 and will set from 40 to 150
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post #23 of 33 Old 03-19-2009, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Audyssey doesn't "set the LFE". Nor do I believe that the knob on your sub is called "LFE". I think that you may be confusing the terms "LFE" and "LPF". Your receiver may have a setting called "LPF of LFE". I do not think that Audyssey adjusts this setting. You should probably set this to 120Hz, manually

Audyssey will set an appropriate crossover setting in your receiver when you run it. This is a completely different setting from the "LPF of LFE" setting.

The knob on your sub may be called the "Crossover" or it may be called the "LPF" (low-pass filter). Either way, you should set it to the maximum setting. Or, turn it off or bypass it if you have that option.

What subwoofer do you have?

I thought that the "LPF of LFE" setting on the receiver was actually the crossover point for the subwoofer. If not, where can I adjust the sub's crossover? There isn't any other relevant option in the receiver's Speaker Config menu...
(my receiver: Onkyo 906)

And indeed, Audyssey doesn't adjust this setting (LPF of LFE)...

Thanks...
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post #24 of 33 Old 03-19-2009, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

I thought that the "LPF of LFE" setting on the receiver was actually the crossover point for the subwoofer. If not, where can I adjust the sub's crossover? There isn't any other relevant option in the receiver's Speaker Config menu...
(my receiver: Onkyo 906)

And indeed, Audyssey doesn't adjust this setting (LPF of LFE)...

Thanks...

I have a Denon AVR 2309CI and Audyssey with automatic setup sets this at 80. I can enter manual setup and make the subwoofer at 120 if I want. Some place I read that by setting at 120 roll off loss between the front and sub is almost eliminated. Since I am a newbee I don't really know if I should do this tweak or just accept the Audyssey default?????
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post #25 of 33 Old 03-19-2009, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

I thought that the "LPF of LFE" setting on the receiver was actually the crossover point for the subwoofer. If not, where can I adjust the sub's crossover? There isn't any other relevant option in the receiver's Speaker Config menu...
(my receiver: Onkyo 906)

And indeed, Audyssey doesn't adjust this setting (LPF of LFE)...

Thanks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by generallee View Post

I have a Denon AVR 2309CI and Audyssey with automatic setup sets this at 80. I can enter manual setup and make the subwoofer at 120 if I want. Some place I read that by setting at 120 roll off loss between the front and sub is almost eliminated. Since I am a newbee I don't really know if I should do this tweak or just accept the Audyssey default?????

The "LFE" is a separate channel recorded on Dolby Digital or DTS tracks of a DVD, or any of the multi-channel tracks of a BluRay. It is the Low Frequency Effects Channel and is designated as the ".1" in the 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 nomenclature. On DVD's, the LFE channel was filtered during the recording process with a filter at 120 Hz. Therefore no further filtering was need on playback. However, under the Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA specifications, the LFE track is now a "full-range" track. Therefore, it needs to be filtered on playback.

The LPF of LFE is the "Low Pass Filter" for this LFE track. (It allows low frequencies to "pass through" while removing higher frequencies.) It sets a high limit on the LFE track *only*. It has no effect on any other track. In general, it should be set to the highest level that does not allow "localization" of the bass. (Bass should sound like it is just "in the room", with the listener unable to pinpoint the source.) In order for this to happen, higher frequency sounds should be removed from the subwoofer. Setting the LPF of LFE to 80 Hz will absolutely ensure that this happens. However, it may also eliminate some of the sounds in the LFE track. In general, it should be set to the highest level that allows the bass to be non-localizable. Try it at 120 Hz. If you can't localize the bass, leave it there. If you can, reduce the setting until you can no longer pinpoint the source of the bass.

Craig

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post #26 of 33 Old 03-19-2009, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

If not, where can I adjust the sub's crossover? There isn't any other relevant option in the receiver's Speaker Config menu...
(my receiver: Onkyo 906)

You can apply an individual crossover setting to each speaker-set; fronts, center, and surrounds.

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Craig and sivadselim thank you for helping us understand these settings...

So, the crossover point for the subwoofer is the other speakers crossover points.
I mean: I turn the crossover knob on the subwoofer to maximum (150hz on my Earthquake MKV-15) and then adjust the crossover on the receiver for each speaker (Front, Center, Surround).
And as Craig said the LPF of LFE setting has nothing to do with these crossover points.
Is this correct?

What troubles me is that the automatic speaker setup (Audyssey) sets all of my speakers to Full Band (large), even if they aren't. My largest speaker-set is Front (floor-standing B&W603S3) whose frequency response is 44hz-22khz!
Also, the MultEQ or DynamicEQ (Audyssey's Equalizer settings) give me too much bass from the subwoofer. With these settings (that Audyssey suggests) the subwoofer overlaps the other speakers.
I get much better results if I change these settings manually...
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post #28 of 33 Old 03-19-2009, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

So, the crossover point for the subwoofer is the other speakers crossover points.

That setting will be applied to that particular speaker-set. So, for example, if you apply an 80Hz crossover to the front speakers, everything above 80Hz that is encoded in the front channels goes to the front speakers for reproduction and everything below 80Hz that is encoded in the front channels will be sent to the subwoofer for reproduction, there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

I mean: I turn the crossover knob on the subwoofer to maximum (150hz on my Earthquake MKV-15) and then adjust the crossover on the receiver for each speaker (Front, Center, Surround).

Yes. You turn the subwoofers own "crossover" (it is really just a variable low-pass filter) up as high as possible so that it is well above the crossover setting(s) you are applying with the receiver and is therefore not participating at all. In other words, if the receiver is sending everything below 80Hz from a particular speaker-set to the subwoofer and if the subwoofer's low-pass is set to 150Hz, then that will obviously not be able to affect anything that is 80Hz and below.

If your subwoofer has a specific input or switch that allows you to bypass its low-pass, then you should use that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

And as Craig said the LPF of LFE setting has nothing to do with these crossover points. Is this correct?

That is correct. That setting is only applied to the LFE channel, itself. So, if it is set to 120Hz, then everything in the LFE channel below 120Hz will be sent to the subwoofer. But if an 80Hz crossover is set to be applied to, for example, the front speakers, then that 80Hz crossover is still applied properly to the front channel info and the sub will only be sent the front channel info below 80Hz, but the LFE info all the way up to 120Hz will still be sent to the subwoofer properly.

Remember, the LFE channel is a separate channel of info, just like any other channel (i.e. front).


Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

What troubles me is that the automatic speaker setup (Audyssey) sets all of my speakers to Full Band (large), even if they aren't. My largest speaker-set is Front (floor-standing B&W603S3) whose frequency response is 44hz-22khz!

Audyssey is not always correct and it is actually your receiver's manufacturer that dictates what settings are applied depending upon the info the Audyssey reports to the receiver. If you do not think that the result is correct, then you can change the setting and apply the crossover setting that you think is best, manually. So, for your 603s, the crossover setting should probably be at least 60Hz, if not even 80Hz.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

Also, the MultEQ or DynamicEQ (Audyssey's Equalizer settings) give me too much bass from the subwoofer. With these settings (that Audyssey suggests) the subwoofer overlaps the other speakers.
I get much better results if I change these settings manually...

Well, Audyssey shouldn't give you too much bass. It is usually pretty good at setting the subwoofer level and applying EQ to it. But, again, if you think it sounds better if you change a setting manually, there is nothing wrong with that.

Try setting an 80Hz crossover point for all your speakers and see what things sound like.

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post #29 of 33 Old 03-20-2009, 06:56 AM
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Great info sivadselim, thanks again...
I have two more questions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

That setting is only applied to the LFE channel, itself. So, if it is set to 120Hz, then everything in the LFE channel below 120Hz will be sent to the subwoofer. But if an 80Hz crossover is set to be applied to, for example, the front speakers, then that 80Hz crossover is still applied properly to the front channel info and the sub will only be sent the front channel info below 80Hz, but the LFE info all the way up to 120Hz will still be sent to the subwoofer properly.

Remember, the LFE channel is a separate channel of info, just like any other channel (i.e. front).



Well, Audyssey shouldn't give you too much bass. It is usually pretty good at setting the subwoofer level and applying EQ to it. But, again, if you think it sounds better if you change a setting manually, there is nothing wrong with that.

Try setting an 80Hz crossover point for all your speakers and see what things sound like.

1. If I set the LPF of LFE to 80hz, then where do the frequencies (of LFE) between 80 and 120hz go?
I changed the LPF of LFE setting too many times and I couldn't tell the difference, to be frank...

2. After your suggestions I did the automatic speaker setup (Audyssey) once again. It always sets the Equalizer Setting to DynamicEQ and the subwoofer Level to -13db (-15db is the minimum).
- Isn't this Level value too low? (the volume knob on the sub is at 11 o'clock). I'm still getting good bass though. If I increase the subwoofer level to -8.0db the bass overlaps the other speakers. So I leave it at around -9.0db...
- If I change the Equalizer Setting from DynamicEQ (Audyssey) to manual I can have a much wider soundstage which is 'non localizable'. With Audyssey's settings (MultEQ, DynamicEQ, DynamicVol) the bass from the subwoofer is stronger but the bass from the other speakers is weaker and the sound from each speaker is easy to localize. As if they don't blend properly to give a solid, 'tight' 5.1 sound.
Something like that also happened when I set all the speakers crossover to 80hz...

I guess I have to experiment much more with these settings...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

1. If I set the LPF of LFE to 80hz, then where do the frequencies (of LFE) between 80 and 120hz go?

They're tossed. Remember, it is a low-pass filter (LPF). So, it lets things pass that are below its setting. Everything above the setting is just plain blocked.

Although it is not entirely clear, the reason for the setting is probably to help avoid subwofer localization. 80Hz is an oft-used crossover (not LPF of LFE) setting because somewhere along the way someone decided that at 80Hz and above bass becomes increasingly localizable. In other words, if you use a crossover point (not LPF of LFE) higher than 80Hz, you can begin to tell where the bass is coming from. This is bad for a few reasons. It can be very distracting, especially if the subwoofer is not symmetrically positioned in the room. And some of the bass encoded in the main channels that would have otherwise normally provided localization cues (i.e. dinosaur over your left shoulder) is now being reproduced by the subwoofer, so those localization cues may be lost or blurred. Instead of the dinosaur sounding like he is over your left shoulder, he sounds like he is coming from your subwoofer.

OK, so that is why it is often said that when your crossover (not the LPF of LFE) is set above 80Hz you can begin to have localization issues. Now, to be honest with you, it is not entirely clear what all the LPF of LFE setting is for, but it is generally thought that it is there to help avoid subwoofer localization. The LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz. And we can localize 120Hz sounds. So, there may be some instances where the LFE channel info causes some distracting subwoofer localization. For example, if the sub is in a back corner. You do not want to be able to tell that the sub is back there, but because the LFE channel can contain info as high as 120Hz, you may be able to. So, you can use the LPF of LFE setting to lower the ceiling of the frequencies that are sent there. Set it at 80Hz and only those frequencies in the LFE channel that are 80Hz and below will get to the subwoofer. This can help to reduce the localization. Yes, it chops off the top part of the LFE channel, but this will not be unique info and there will be plenty of that info below 80Hz, so it is not really missed.

So, set the LPF of LFE setting to 120Hz and if you have some localization issues, you can lower it to see if y ou can alleviate them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

2. After your suggestions I did the automatic speaker setup (Audyssey) once again. It always sets the Equalizer Setting to DynamicEQ and the subwoofer Level to -13db (-15db is the minimum).
- Isn't this Level value too low? (the volume knob on the sub is at 11 o'clock). I'm still getting good bass though.

In setting it to "-13", it is simply trying to lower the volume of your sub. In other words, your sub is turned up too high before you run Audyssey. It is still able to compensate by turning it down to "-13". So, turn the sub's volume down (from 11 o'clock) prior to running Audyssey and it will set the subwoofer trim to something higher than "-13". It is all relative. You ought to be able to find a volume setting at your sub that results in a subwoofer level trim that is at or close to "0dB".


Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

If I increase the subwoofer level to -8.0db the bass overlaps the other speakers. So I leave it at around -9.0db...

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Adjusting the level doesn't change the crossover point. If you mean that it produces too much bass, well, of course it does. You have turned the sub's volume up higher than Audyssey set it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

- If I change the Equalizer Setting from DynamicEQ (Audyssey) to manual I can have a much wider soundstage which is 'non localizable'.

I am not sure what you are saying here, either. I do not doubt that you can alter the soundstage by altering the EQ settings. But I expained the whole localization thing as it pertains the the subwoofer, above. As for speakers, yes, you also do not really want to be able to localize them, per se. They shouldn't just sound like a shoebox that has sound coming out of it. A speaker that is designed correctly should almost disappear. Audyssey shouldn't really reduce this quality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mindnever View Post

With Audyssey's settings (MultEQ, DynamicEQ, DynamicVol) the bass from the subwoofer is stronger but the bass from the other speakers is weaker and the sound from each speaker is easy to localize. As if they don't blend properly to give a solid, 'tight' 5.1 sound.
Something like that also happened when I set all the speakers crossover to 80hz...

I am not sure why the bass being weaker form the speakers would make them easier to localize. Obviously, if you go from running the speakers "Full band" to being crossed over at 80Hz, then the bass coming form the speakers will be reduced and the bass coming form the subwoofer itself will be increased. That is exactly what the crossover setting is supposed to do. It reroutes bass below 80Hz from the speakers to the subwoofer. If you are finding this displeasing, there could be several reasons.

You must make certain that the subwoofer is properly calibrated to the correct level by Audyssey. If you turn it up higher than Audyssey sets it, it is obviously going to sound too loud. Try lowering the subwoofer's own volume lower than 11 o'clock as I described above before you run Audyseey again. Try to make the receiver's subwoofer level trim end up closer to "0dB" instead of "-13dB". How close is your subwoofer located to you relative to your speakers? What subwoofer is this (forgive me if you have already mentioned it)? A poor quality subwoofer can just plain sound bad. Where are you positioning the mic when you do the Audyssey calibration? What direction are you pointing it?

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