RED RAY 2K, 3K & 4K disk drive announced by RED for 1Q09 - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 73 Old 04-23-2009, 01:46 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,371
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 976 Post(s)
Liked: 546
I read through the linked thread but didn't see anything to get excited about. It is very easy to arrive at a low average data rate. Just have 15 minutes of easy stuff and one minute of hard . So until someone tries to make real as opposed to demo tests, there is not much to be excited about.

Advancements in compression efficiencies come at 5 to 10% level/year, not 5 to 10X .

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 73 Old 04-23-2009, 02:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolscan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Remember that the (original) purpose of RED Ray is to have a playback facility to show a full lenght motion picture in 4K from a burnt DVD-R, then you will find the max bitrate right there.

RED Ray (a playback machine) will be out later this year (they claim) and will cost under $1000.
Then we will see what they got.
coolscan is offline  
post #63 of 73 Old 04-23-2009, 03:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mhafner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 4,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 29
I don't think the footage was doctored that way. If you think about it they 'only' did what AVC and VC-1 do all the time, taking material considered master quality (Digibeta, HDCAM SR...) and apply a compression factor somewhere between 10 and 80 or so and get a result that is +- visually lossless, although there are peeks required well above some average to keep the level of artifacts constant or at least not exceeding some threshold.
The only difference is that they start with a 4K 'lossless' master which is already very much compressed in itself (but still considered visually lossless at >= 24 fps). Whether they simply apply some variation of know techniques and treat their 4K frames like an AVC encoder treats its input or if they developed new methods to track wavelet coefficients directly from frame to frame and encode the differences efficiently we don't know yet. But it's no magic. I suspect there are either peeks required which are >> 10 Mbit/s for some types of footage or it's no longer visually lossless all the time, certainly not when watching a split screen with the original and definitely not with a full 4K res original (which Redcode from Red One is not).
But if they managed to squeeze it into Blu Ray parameters with all peeks then we can celebrate. 4K at home in Blu Ray quality, who would not want that?
mhafner is offline  
post #64 of 73 Old 04-23-2009, 05:52 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,371
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 976 Post(s)
Liked: 546
Here is what we know from real experience. With clean sources, and three pass encoding for HD DVD/BD (i.e. a human involved), we can for 1080p content get down to 9 to 10 mbit/sec. But that is for consumer delivery at 4:2:0. Up that to 4K and 4:2:2/4:4:4, and auto-encoding, the math just doesn't work. Yes, if you have uniform parts of the image, you don't need twice as much. But there is no guarantee of that.

As to wavelets, again, I have not seen it applied with interframe compression. Intra works but of course, when pusehd softens the image. There has been research into interframe compression using wavelets but computationally, it is orders of magnitude more difficult than AVC/VC-1. And the gains are actually not that good.

So while I leave the door ever so slightly open that they have something new, there is no way to achieve those rates for studio work and for professional eyes.

The "2-hour" thing is likely a marketing claim. I suspect they will use a very high-speed red laser drive, and likely get 20 to 30 minutes. Why I would bother to use optical when I can use Flash, is beyond me. For this application, it makes no sense to me. Maybe they didn't predict Flash prices to drop so low when they started the project...

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is offline  
post #65 of 73 Old 04-23-2009, 07:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MovieSwede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Gothenburg
Posts: 6,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Amir I think this codec is directly aimed for cmos footage. So its not 4:4:4 but more like 4:0:0 since you dont have to encode any colordata.

Of course 4K sound still heavy at 10mbs.
MovieSwede is offline  
post #66 of 73 Old 04-23-2009, 10:04 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 18,371
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 976 Post(s)
Liked: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Amir I think this codec is directly aimed for cmos footage. So its not 4:4:4 but more like 4:0:0 since you dont have to encode any colordata.

Good correction on terminology . But do they not use a Bayer filter? If so,then they do wind up with GRGB data to compress.

Amir
Retired Technology Insider
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"
amirm is offline  
post #67 of 73 Old 04-24-2009, 01:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mhafner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 4,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Good correction on terminology . But do they not use a Bayer filter? If so,then they do wind up with GRGB data to compress.

Bayer 4K sensor so they compress with wavelets a ~3.2K real resolution Bayer pattern that can be debayered to an RGB image afterwards (post wavelet decompression). Or further compressed intra- and interframe for a delivery version with real time decompression and debayering. Looks like they had some breakthrough doing this. 4K with the smaller pixels helps compression artifacts staying below the visibility threshold at real time.
mhafner is offline  
post #68 of 73 Old 04-24-2009, 09:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MovieSwede's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Gothenburg
Posts: 6,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Amir, I got this wild idea.

What about using a codec like this as a core, and then add an extension that is based on something VC1, that acts as a filling in the blanks. On the areas were the redcode deviate to much from the orginal source.

It could be the best of both worlds.
MovieSwede is offline  
post #69 of 73 Old 04-24-2009, 10:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
scaesare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 4,637
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
1) This was not an "unchallanging" demo reel.

2) The camera is indeed bayer, but the individual R,G, & B channels are wavelet compressed individually in the camera to REDCode, at about 35MBs.

3) The REDRay codec is not REDCode, but a distribution codec that delivers RGB.

4) These guys are picky. I suspect they will not be foisting substandard distribution of their images upon folks. Ask Stacy... he owns one of their cameras.

-Steve
scaesare is offline  
post #70 of 73 Old 04-25-2009, 04:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coolscan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 105
For those that want to see an example of what type of content that was demoed in Las Vegas, here is a download link to "Shot on RED" in VLC h264 720.mov.

I believe this is this year’s reel, the Reel 400, not last year's reel the Reel 300 that was compressed to 10Mb/s.

Looks very good compressed down to 720 for web delivery.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpos...5&postcount=21
coolscan is offline  
post #71 of 73 Old 04-25-2009, 10:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mhafner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 4,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Damn, I just wanted to post this link. Now imagine watching this in 4K...
mhafner is offline  
post #72 of 73 Old 11-30-2009, 05:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
LexInVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,982
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Today, RED Fire Chief Jarred Land via the official RED online forum gave some preliminary specs for the RED Ray Professional playback system (for use in production environments) and also stated that the Consumer playback system would follow sometime thereafter. Here is the information he posted:

RED RAY PRO

* Decode .R3D RAW files to 5K 30 fps
* Decode .RRD (RED RAY Distribution format) 4:4:4 files up to 4K @ 30 fps
* Up to 12 channels of compressed or uncompressed 24-bit audio

* Optional media and local link encryption
* Gigabit and Wireless 802.11b/g/n Ethernet
* Local Touch LCD UI and dedicated transport controls

* 4 x DVI-D Program Outputs (four 1080p / 2K image quadrants, A B C D)
* 4 x HD-SDI 3G Program Outputs (four 1080p / 2K image quadrants, A B C D)
* 1 x HDMI Preview Output with Audio
* 2 x DB-25 Digital Audio Outputs

* Rack mount
* Redundant power supply possible
* 4 x USB-2 ports
* e-SATA port
* GPIO and automation support
* FireWire 800 port
* 2 x Customizable front storage slots
* Compact Flash support

He gave the following information about the current launch times for their new formats:

RED Ray Pro- January- February 2010
RED Ray Consumer- Spring- Summer 2010

... unless we have major issues we don't anticipate.

These are expected to street around the same time as RED's new camera systems coming next year which offer higher resolution and the usual improvements over their current offering, the RED One system.
LexInVA is offline  
post #73 of 73 Old 12-01-2009, 01:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolscan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 105
RED RAY PRO™ render

coolscan is offline  
Reply HDTV Software Media Discussion

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off