Is uncompressed PCM 5.1 better in EVERY way than DD or DTS 5.1? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 68 Old 12-14-2008, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Minge View Post

I searched for this thread because I was going to start one myself. I for one think the lossless codecs are a giant marketing joke and the joke is on us!! I have what I consider to be higher middle end equipment...I have a Panny BD-35 fed to my Integra 9.8 pre-pro via HDMI and I have a family of Dynaudio speakers...

Maybe what's missing is either your ears or your expectations. If you expect to hear a night-and-day difference between lossy and lossless sound, even with the best audio equipment, you may be disappointed. On the other hand, as I've said before, there IS a difference, with the lossless tracks in my experience always sounding better. But it might not be a big enough improvement to satisfy the demands of all listeners.

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post #62 of 68 Old 12-14-2008, 01:29 PM
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One thing is for sure, it is not my ears...I can pretty much assure you of that. Expectation, no question....I had huge expectations, did not even come close to what I thought I was in store for.
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post #63 of 68 Old 12-14-2008, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minge View Post

I searched for this thread because I was going to start one myself. I for one think the lossless codecs are a giant marketing joke and the joke is on us!! I have what I consider to be higher middle end equipment...I have a Panny BD-35 fed to my Integra 9.8 pre-pro via HDMI and I have a family of Dynaudio speakers...

I have been waiting for OPPO to release there new blu player but I could not wait anymore and I purchased the panny, of topic story for another thread.

I mainly upgraded my system to incorporate an all HDMI solution to my home theater and for the lossless audio. My expectation was to be as blown away as I was the first time I heard the Eagles Hell Freezes Over DVD in DTS...Remember how your were grinning from ear to ear how cutting edge that was? So I got my system set-up and bought two of what are suppose to be better sounding blu discs, David Gilmour Remember that Night and the Police Live..Both discs in Dolby True HD, I can't tell you how disapointed I am...This formats soundstage is terrible. My speakers tell me right away when something is not right. I find there is no separation between instruments...the soundstage is not good at all. I will take some of my better sounding plain old dolby digital and dts discs and day. My James Taylor DVD and Eric Claption One On More Rider for my ears sounds much better to my ear and this is just to name a few.

What am I missing? I did watch the Hulk in True HD and I thought the dialog would be better in this format, it was just OK...The soundtrack was good but not that great. I am hard pressed to think it is my equipment. I feel like a jack ass for being taken in by a giant marketing ploy...

Very disapointed indeed, what a joke!!

Well, I still don't know what the answer is, but it's interesting that your observations fairly closely paralleled mine. I need to check out some more movies that have both the uncompressed tracks and lossy DD or DTS tracks.

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post #64 of 68 Old 12-14-2008, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sweetmate View Post

The SPDIF from your arcam player sounded better than WHAT from your denon?

Sending a lossy DD or DTS bitstream via spdif connection will sound EXACTLY (and by exactly I do mean EXACTLY) the same as sending a lossy DD or DTS bitstream via hdmi from ANY piece of hardware capable of doing so. This is basic science. This forum is called the AV Science forum. Disagree all you like but that doesn't change reality.

Perhaps he was refering to LPCM and not a bitstreamed codec. The possibility does exist for jitter issues with linear PCM transported via S/PDIF. Although normally the improved solutions deal with the target end (AVR or Pre-Pro) having better clock recovery hardware implementation.
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post #65 of 68 Old 12-19-2008, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by moovtune View Post

What no one has mentioned, and what causes me to hesitate to immediately accept that article (http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...compressed_PCM) is that they went to Dolby to hear the results of Dolby encoding and went to DTS to hear the results of DTS encoding. An unbiased third party sight for testing would have impressed me more.

I agree. Another problem I have with this test is the fact that they listened to "simple" sections or sections without dynamic changes in the recording.

As anyone who has worked with digital formats and compression knows is that it is easy to make something "simple" look or sound good even when it is heavly compressed.

Consider a YouTube video that is stationary person with a white backround, that video will look pretty good with little artifacts, but the same camera recording a sporting event or high motion video will look like crap on YouTube, because there is too many changes in the data stream to get quality compression without introducing artifacts.

I am not discounting what they heard in that test, in fact I am in agreement that the difference is not always even noticeable (lossy vs. lossless). But it should be pointed out that their testing methods were flawed...
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post #66 of 68 Old 07-09-2013, 11:36 PM
 
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post #67 of 68 Old 07-12-2013, 10:45 AM
 
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Entertaining reading (before you deleted it on 7/16) but not quite right. Close, though.

What comes out of your speakers (or headphone transducers) is an analog wave not a stepped sine wave. You've mentioned steps a few times. Those appear before the filters take out the high frequencies that cause the stepped appearance. That's done with every audio D/A circuit I know of. If it weren't for filters, formats such as DSD, would be unlistenable. So the thought that you are getting anything but a non-stepped analog signal out at the end, is incorrect. It would also damage your speaker voice coils if it were true. Speaker drivers don't like DC and they don't like steps either.

As far as PCM versus Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA HD, those all produce the same digital output. That's the whole purpose of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD - to produce a signal that is an exact (not close, but exact) representation of the original PCM data. The advantage of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA HD, is that they take up less space than PCM because they use lossless encoding. So to say that "compression will always take at least SOMETHING away..." is incorrect. That lossy compression takes something away would be correct. As you correctly pointed out, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA HD have the other advantage of including a lossy core signal for use with equipment that can't handle the original PCM signal.

LPCM in not another name for higher-than-2 channel PCM. LPCM stands for linear pulse code modulated. PPCM is packed pulse code modulated which is PCM that has been losslessly compressed. The term originated around that same time as Meridean Lossless Packing (MLP) was introduced to encode multichannel DVD-Audio discs. PCM just stands for pulse code modulated and is what you see when you look at a .wav file on a computer screen. LPCM is just saying that the PCM code has not been compressed. Whether PCM is stereo or multichannel does not change whether it is LPCM versus PPCM versus PCM.

In terms of whether 5.1 is better than 7.1, it depends upon the source material. I would much rather mix music in 5.1 than 7.1 because, for the most part, instruments sound strange coming from behind the listener. Off to the sides has a nice effect for background vocals and guitars (if done properly), cymbals, etc. For an airplane flying overhead, yes that's a great use of 7.1. But, it isn't as easy as saying 7.1 is always better than 5.1.
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post #68 of 68 Old 07-21-2013, 05:55 AM
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Many use a DD compressed mode (Dynamic Range Control) in the receiver without even knowing that there is such a setting. That would clearly explain the difference perceived with DTS or PCM.
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