Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida comments on possible Blu-ray support - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 59 Old 06-24-2009, 01:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
tvine2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: vermont
Posts: 820
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

I don't know. Are there?

Toshiba does very well in the laptop business. One of their successes.

I would think that their laptops could benefit from the addition of a BD drive and get better results ($ wise) then trying to sell a BD player for $299 and start out at the bottom of the pile (CEM's).

Doesn't Toshiba jointly own TSST with Samsung and one of the drives is a BD drive?

that would make the most sense for them
tvine2000 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 59 Old 06-24-2009, 01:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Everdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by allargon View Post

...If they ever release one, I see them taking LG's route and releasing a combo of Blu-Ray and streaming.

I said that a while back. I think they will release a player in 2010 that uses the Cell processor and:

Upscales

Streams
plays BDs

They will really downplay the BD part and promote the upscaling ability.

Just my humble opinion.
Everdog is offline  
post #33 of 59 Old 06-24-2009, 02:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Grubert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 7,892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

I said that a while back. I think they will release a player in 2010 that uses the Cell processor and:

Upscales

Streams
plays BDs

They will really downplay the BD part and promote the upscaling ability.

Just my humble opinion.

Then they'd placing themselves in the same market as the $40 upconverters.

That didn't work with XDE last year - what makes you think it'd work two years later?

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
Grubert is offline  
post #34 of 59 Old 06-24-2009, 03:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tkmedia2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: CA, WA, USA
Posts: 2,293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Are there any Japanese CE makers selling BD recorders in Japan and not selling BD players in USA/Europe?

hitachi maybe? did they have a bd recorder? I know they had a BD camcorder.

Tony!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
tkmedia2 is offline  
post #35 of 59 Old 06-24-2009, 03:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
yrly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 608
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by allargon View Post

Please go and praise Samsung in the "Dual Format Players" section and see what kind of response you get.

As an owner of the UP5000 there is nothing wrong with it other than the fact that Samsung doesn't support the firmware well. If you spent a lot on the player you might have a complaint about it. I own 80+ Blu-rays and nearly 300 HD DVDs (the main reason I bought the player was to avoid having to have two units in a cabinet where there was no room). I have not encountered anything it wouldn't play, some longer load times on some Blu-rays, but in the end it played everything so far. It also is a very good upconverter, save for the fact it won't pillarbox 4:3 movies (I have very few and enough other players that can do it if needed). I watched Naked Gun last night, and I was favorably impressed at how the player did it vs. some of my other units. I usually use my A2 for upconverting, as it does a decent job and is a cheap player, plus I have several extras. The UP5000 blows it away with its Reon. So those who criticize this player are generally those that have issues with it, early units with bad drives seem to be the most common problem. Those without issues, like me, think of it favorably.
yrly is offline  
post #36 of 59 Old 06-24-2009, 03:36 PM
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkmedia2 View Post

hitachi maybe? did they have a bd recorder? I know they had a BD camcorder.

Mitsubishi's AVCREC Blu-ray recorders stuff HD content onto standard DVDs

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/18/M...nt-onto-stand/

Does Mits make BD players?
Lee Stewart is offline  
post #37 of 59 Old 06-24-2009, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,959
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodef View Post

What difference does it make if Toshiba enters into BD or not?

Well some people find this subject interesting and want to discuss it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodef View Post

And Who cares!

I do, and it looks like you do as well since you cared enough to vote in this poll and post in this thread.
Richard Paul is offline  
post #38 of 59 Old 06-24-2009, 05:45 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ktak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 796
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Mitsubishi's AVCREC Blu-ray recorders stuff HD content onto standard DVDs

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/18/M...nt-onto-stand/

Does Mits make BD players?

They don't have any player-only models available for the Japanese market at this time, and neither does Hitachi. Both do have BD recorders now. However, Panasonic and Sony both released player-only models for the foreign (US/Europe) market in 2006 while simultaneously releasing only BD recorders for their domestic market, so there's a small chance that Toshiba might follow the same strategy.

This announcement from Toshiba doesn't really surprise anyone in Japan. As I've said before, given the way the BD recorder market has exploded here, it was only a matter of time before Toshiba backed off from its "No Blu-ray" policy. Strictly from a PR/corporate image standpoint, Toshiba has been under tremendous pressure from its home market consumers to put a BD recorder model of some kind out. My guess is that they'll do it before the end-of-year bonus season this coming December.

Whenever you go into big box Japanese CE retailers like Kojima Denki, Bic or Yodobashi Camera, one of the first things you see are stacks of BD recorders from every major CE manufacturer...except Toshiba. Outside, BD recorder billboards and train ads are everywhere. Toshiba's total absence from these ads is very conspicuous, and has not gone unnoticed by the public.
Ktak is offline  
post #39 of 59 Old 06-25-2009, 08:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dsmith901's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 8,966
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Does anyone here really think the MPAA will allow stand-alone BD recorders in the US, unless they are so crippled you will only be able to copy your old home movies? Besides, DVD recorders are not exactly jumping off the shelves in the US.

"The truth is out there!"
dsmith901 is offline  
post #40 of 59 Old 06-25-2009, 08:41 AM
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Does anyone here really think the MPAA will allow stand-alone BD recorders in the US, unless they are so crippled you will only be able to copy your old home movies? Besides, DVD recorders are not exactly jumping off the shelves in the US.

Speaking for myself - I believe the hope was that the USA would get the same STB's that Japan and now the UK have/are getting (SAT only):

SAT or CBL 2 Tuner HD DVR with BD recorder/player.

It would allow you to move recording off of the HDD and onto a BD for archival purposes.
Lee Stewart is offline  
post #41 of 59 Old 06-25-2009, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,959
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodef View Post

Why?

Well I am curious to see if/when Toshiba starts supporting Blu-ray and as such I find this news to be interesting.
Richard Paul is offline  
post #42 of 59 Old 06-25-2009, 11:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
TheMoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,861
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodef View Post

Your interest puzzles me unless you want to buy a Toshiba BD player if one ever comes out. If not, I don't see the sense of caring at all.

If you are not interested then why are you even posting in this thread?

"Racing is........Life.......Everything before & after is just waiting"
TheMoose is offline  
post #43 of 59 Old 06-25-2009, 12:08 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Kosty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North East USA
Posts: 14,683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Not sure if I saw there here

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/tks...toshiba-go-blu

Quote:


Toshiba to Go Blu?

By Thomas K. Arnold | Posted: 24 Jun 2009
tarnold@questex.com,

Interesting buzz today about Toshiba potentially going Blu-ray. Apparently outgoing Toshiba president Atsutoshi Nishida, in a company shareholder meeting, said the Japanese consumer electronics giant may finally have a change of heart regarding the victorious high-definition optical disc format.

"It makes no sense to decide not to enter the Blu-ray market simply because we lost the DVD format war," he is reported to have said. "We cannot change the fact that we lost." (Check out our story by Erik Gruenwedel by clicking here.)

If true, it's about time! I've always felt Toshiba was acting irrationally by refusing to go Blu after the bitter defeat of its HD DVD format in January 2008. I hate cliches, but this truly was a case of cutting off one's nose to spite the face. Toshiba is a great company — all my DVD players have been Toshiba — and the company probably lost a lot of momentum, and business, by sitting on the sidelines while Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer and others were busy producing Blu-ray Disc players, especially since Toshiba's first course of action was to rev up its DVD "upconverters," a silly ploy that only made it look foolish and petty. "The other high-def format won and ours lost, so you know what? Maybe we don't need any high-def format! DVD is just fine! Take that, Blu-ray!"

Until last year, I've always considered Toshiba a first-class CE company. Let's hope Toshiba does the right thing and starts producing Blu-ray Disc players, like just about everyone else.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/tos...andwagon-16170

Quote:


Toshiba Joining Blu-ray Bandwagon?


By Erik Gruenwedel | Posted: 24 Jun 2009
egruenwedel@questex.com


Toshiba Corp., which spent more than $1 billion pushing HD DVD in a losing cause, reportedly is considering supporting erstwhile high-definition format rival Blu-ray Disc.

Atsutoshi Nishida, chairman and former CEO of the Japanese consumer electronics giant, said June 24 in Tokyo the company is considering backing Blu-ray in an effort to keep “our options open,” according to a post on Japanese site Nikkei.com.

Toshiba, which formally ceased HD DVD product shipments in March 2008 following a lengthy and acrimonious battle with Sony-backed Blu-ray, said at the time that it had no interest in entering the BD market.

It did, however, leave open the door to possibly revisiting HD packaged media.

“The real mass-market opportunity for high-definition content remains untapped, and Toshiba is both able and determined to use our talent, technology and intellectual property to make digital convergence a reality,” Nishida said at the time.

Toshiba reportedly is interested in BD recorders and has focused on flash memory and upgraded standard DVD players since the end of the format war. The company lost a record $3.6 billion for the fiscal year ended March 31.


.
"A lot of good arguments are spoiled by some fool who knows what he is talking about." - Miguel de Unamuno



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Kosty is offline  
post #44 of 59 Old 06-25-2009, 05:56 PM
Senior Member
 
Bozster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 486
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Seems that Lee is right.. I don't see them building BD standalones.. IMO companies are losing money so that's really not logical. They could make some money selling BD Recorders which they obviously confirm.

XBL: Bozster | PSN: Bozster
Bozster is offline  
post #45 of 59 Old 06-25-2009, 06:13 PM
Advanced Member
 
bt12483's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 798
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozster View Post

Seems that Lee is right.. I don't see them building BD standalones.. IMO companies are losing money so that's really not logical. They could make some money selling BD Recorders which they obviously confirm.

There is no "opinion" that companies are losing money. Either they are, or they aren't. Back your opinion up with some facts, and it will be worth something. Otherwise, it's just....your opinion. You can have an opinion on the taste of Diet Coke. Some like it, some don't. You can't have an opinion on real world, hard number$. They exist. They are fixed. There is no opinion with numbers.

Show please, show us all -with real world numbers and facts- how companies are losing money building standalone bluray players.

Do you even know how much they cost to build? If you don't, how can your "opinion" possibly be an educated one?
bt12483 is offline  
post #46 of 59 Old 06-26-2009, 08:00 AM
 
Lodef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northshore, MA
Posts: 3,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoose View Post

If you are not interested then why are you even posting in this thread?

I'm not! I just don't understand why some others are, hence why I asked the questions.
Lodef is offline  
post #47 of 59 Old 06-26-2009, 12:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Everdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

I said that a while back. I think they will release a (BD) player in 2010 that uses the Cell processor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Then they'd placing themselves in the same market as the $40 upconverters.

That didn't work with XDE last year - what makes you think it'd work two years later?

So BD players compete with the $40 upconverters? That statement will upset a few people around here. There are already plenty of BD players that stream, upconvert and play BDs. Toshiba will just promote the fact that their player is better at upconverting, and highlight in big text that theirs streams movies...much like LG has been doing for 6 months. Ever look at the LG web page for its BD players? What do they say in giant text?...
http://www.lge.com/us/tv-audio-video...ayer-BD300.jsp

Notice how "stream" is 3x larger that Blu-ray...much like my example.
Everdog is offline  
post #48 of 59 Old 06-26-2009, 03:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dsmith901's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 8,966
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Speaking for myself - I believe the hope was that the USA would get the same STB's that Japan and now the UK have/are getting (SAT only):

SAT or CBL 2 Tuner HD DVR with BD recorder/player.

It would allow you to move recording off of the HDD and onto a BD for archival purposes.

You mean so you could archive a HD copy of a HD movie or program from cable or sat? That is exactly what the MPAA does not want, which is why even SD DVD recorders don't have useable digital inputs (except for the firewire input to connect with digital cameras). It is already possible to make SD (480i) DVD copies of cable and sat shows and movies, and HD looks surprisingly good when downconverted and copied at 480i (but alas no 5.1 digital audio). Of course there will always be someone with a computer program to.....

"The truth is out there!"
dsmith901 is offline  
post #49 of 59 Old 06-26-2009, 04:37 PM
 
Lee Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 19,369
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

You mean so you could archive a HD copy of a HD movie or program from cable or sat?
Quote:


That is exactly what the MPAA does not want

, which is why even SD DVD recorders don't have useable digital inputs (except for the firewire input to connect with digital cameras). It is already possible to make SD (480i) DVD copies of cable and sat shows and movies, and HD looks surprisingly good when downconverted and copied at 480i (but alas no 5.1 digital audio). Of course there will always be someone with a computer program to.....

Guess the MPAA has less influence in Japan and the UK cause that is what is being offerred.
Lee Stewart is offline  
post #50 of 59 Old 06-29-2009, 12:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rlsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 5,618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Notice how "stream" is 3x larger that Blu-ray...much like my example.

That is because the streaming is how LG differentiates its product from the mainline manufacturers.

The fact is that Blu-ray players are becoming something of a commodity category, just as DVD players long ago did.
rlsmith is offline  
post #51 of 59 Old 06-29-2009, 01:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milpitas, CA, USA
Posts: 2,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by allargon View Post

If they ever release one, I see them taking LG's route and releasing a combo of Blu-Ray and streaming.

Streaming is rapidly becoming a standard feature of BD players and many other CE products...

Keith Jack
Sigma Designs
BD, IPTV, HDTV decoder supplier
Blog:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kjack is offline  
post #52 of 59 Old 06-29-2009, 01:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Everdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith View Post

That is because the streaming is how LG differentiates its product from the mainline manufacturers.

But Samsung players do the same thing and Panasonic "Blu-ray players are capable of streaming video from online sources like Amazon and YouTube".

Besides all those and Sony who else is a "mainline manufacturer"? Sharp?
My bet is by the end of the year even sharp will offer that feature.
Everdog is offline  
post #53 of 59 Old 06-29-2009, 01:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Everdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

Streaming is rapidly becoming a standard feature of BD players and many other CE products...

Do all decoder chips on BD players support this, or just the latest ones?

I guess I am asking if there is an extra cost to provide streaming support on a BD 2.0 player.
Everdog is offline  
post #54 of 59 Old 06-29-2009, 03:50 PM
 
PSound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

Streaming is rapidly becoming a standard feature of BD players and many other CE products...

Finding a video player or a video display without built-in streaming support will be the exception this time next year.
PSound is offline  
post #55 of 59 Old 06-29-2009, 05:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milpitas, CA, USA
Posts: 2,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Do all decoder chips on BD players support this, or just the latest ones? I guess I am asking if there is an extra cost to provide streaming support on a BD 2.0 player.

It's just software, although there may be some licensing fees involved depending on the provider.

Keith Jack
Sigma Designs
BD, IPTV, HDTV decoder supplier
Blog:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kjack is offline  
post #56 of 59 Old 06-29-2009, 06:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Wendell R. Breland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,367
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSound View Post

Finding a video player or a video display without built-in streaming support will be the exception this time next year.

Just wait utill:
Quote:


Now they only see the message, Unfortunately, this video is not available on your platform. We apologize for any inconvenience.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Wendell R. Breland is online now  
post #57 of 59 Old 06-29-2009, 10:03 PM
 
PSound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Just wait utill:

That is perfect! Deny a customer something of value, and they will find someone else to provide it. If one service does not want the customer, then certainly another one will.
PSound is offline  
post #58 of 59 Old 06-30-2009, 05:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Everdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

It's just software, although there may be some licensing fees involved depending on the provider.

Thanks!

Because no hardware changes are needed, I think all of you guys are correct that by the end of the year most 2.0 players will support either Netflix, Amazon, or similar service. I'll be curious to see if Sony follows suit.
Everdog is offline  
post #59 of 59 Old 07-08-2009, 12:20 PM
Member
 
Victor Bergman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 95
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This is an interesting story. As a Samsung dual format user, I would definitely give Toshiba a look if their BD player also supported multiple disc formats, especially HD DVD. If anyone can do it well, they should be able to.

My two UP5000s are glitchy, but they work. Samsung firmware support is negligible, and I have had very poor dealings with their phone reps -- so much so that I won't buy from Samsung again.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Toshiba can find a way to continue support for the many HD DVD users around the world.

Prof. Bergman, Moonbase Alpha
Victor Bergman is offline  
Reply HDTV Software Media Discussion

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off