Can you upscale 1080i HD broadcasting to 1080P? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 07-25-2009, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm under a Time Warner HD box and it's highest is 1080i, just wondering if the TV can upscale it to 1080P - if so, if there's a noticeable difference or not?

Side note, I'm surprised @ the difference of picture clarity between video games and HD broadcasts - HD broadcasts don't look all that breath taking good, but video games do.
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post #2 of 13 Old 07-25-2009, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy714 View Post

I'm under a Time Warner HD box and it's highest is 1080i, just wondering if the TV can upscale it to 1080P - if so, if there's a noticeable difference or not?

Side note, I'm surprised @ the difference of picture clarity between video games and HD broadcasts - HD broadcasts don't look all that breath taking good, but video games do.

A 1080p TV will take a 1080i signal, deinterlace it, and display it at the native resolution of 1080p. There is no upscaling involved, as the 1080i signal has the same horizontal and vertical resolution as the 1080p signal, bit only sends alternating scanlines on each frame, so the TV comes up with a guess for odd scanlines in one frame and even scanlines in the next.

HD broadcasts are subject to compression errors, analog to digital conversion artifacts, and noise introduced into the signal. Video games generate the picture digitally on the fly and therefore look better. The same phenomenon can be observed when watching a DVD/Blu-Ray of a live action move versus DVD/Blu-Ray of a computer animated movie that is digitally rendered onto the disc.
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post #3 of 13 Old 07-25-2009, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Do I have to set this in the TV settings to bring it up to 1080P then? Because when I flip to my HDMI input it shows '1080i @ 60hz' at the top left.
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post #4 of 13 Old 07-25-2009, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy714 View Post

Do I have to set this in the TV settings to bring it up to 1080P then? Because when I flip to my HDMI input it shows '1080i @ 60hz' at the top left.

People get confused by this, but all tvs upscale the signal to its native resolution. It has to in order to fill the screen. There is no upscale feature, if you are looking at a picture that fits the screen it is upscaled.
The resolution the tv tells you is what the tv is being fed originally.
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post #5 of 13 Old 07-25-2009, 10:59 PM
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HD TV programs are broadcast at either 720P or 1080i. Most channels are in 1080i because of the higher resolution, but a few channels like ESPN use 720P for the Fast action in sports. All HDTV's, LCD's or Plasma's will display that 720P or 1080i picture in it's OWN NATIVE RESOLUTION. For example a 720P Plasma HDTV is normally 768P! So no matter what, the 720P picture is scaled up, or the 1080i picture is scaled down and De-Interlaced. On a 1080P HDTV, the 720P picture is scaled up to 1080P and the 1080i picture is just De-Interlaced. Plasma and LCD displays are PROGRESSIVE. They CAN'T display a interlaced picture. A CRT(TUBE) HDTV on the other hand do, which is why they are 1080i. Or in case of a SDTV, 480i. Which when watching a 1080i picture they don't have to do anything. Trying to send a 1080P picture takes way to much bandwidth.

1080i and 1080P are the EXACT same resolution, 1920x1080. Most TV's in the U.S. show 60 frames per second, so with 1080P you can get a full 60 frames per second. Because each pass on the screen shows the FULL Progressive Picture. For a true Interlace SDTV or HDTV, it takes 2 passes, a Odd line pass and then a Even line pass to make a complete Picture, so this really gives you 30 frames per second. Most MOVIES on Blu-Ray are 1080P/24 or 24 frames per second. That's because that's how it's shown in the theater. To get 60 frames per second out of the 24 frames per second on Blu-Ray(And DVD also) they use 2:3 Pull-down. First frame shown 2 times, the second frame shown 3 times, the 3rd frame shown 2 times and so on and so on. 11222334445566677888 This gets you 60 frames out of 24 frames!! Because some people notice this juddering effect, they came out with 120Hz HDTV's or other speeds to even it out. So for 120Hz HDTV's, which means it's showing 120 frames per second, your now doing 5:5 pull-down. So it's 1111122222333334444455555, you get 120 frames from 24 frames, but since it's even the effect is gone.

Point being Blu-Ray is showing less frames at 1080P/24 then a 1080i/30 or 1080P/60 HDTV. I've seen a few places advertising a 1080i HDTV Plasma for example. This is B.S. No such thing. In fact when you then look at the resolution it's 768P. They just allow a 1080i input signal which the TV once again De-interlaces and scales the picture down to 768P. The HDTV will Display what it's source INPUT is, but no matter what, it's doing what it needs to, to display it on it's screen at it's Native Resolution. Hell the early 1080P HDTV's didn't allow a 1080P Input, only up to 1080i. There was nothing out to send a 1080P Signal to the HDTV, until really the PS3 and Blu-Ray. I'd also say HD DVD, but most of them were 1080i early on which generally is just as good unless the HDTV's Deinterlacer wasn't the best. Later on the Xbox 360 was updated to support 1080P also as when it was first released could only go up to 1080i.

So Time Warner, or Comcast and all the others, or your Antenna, get 720P or 1080i. You have a 1080P HDTV and are watching a 1080i channel, there's generally no scaling going on, just De-Interlacing. That means getting the 540 Odd frame and then the 540 even frame, Combining the 2 together to be shown at the same time, which of course would also mean showing that complete frame twice to get the 60 frames per second. With the few 720P sources, your already getting 60 frames per second, so your HDTV just scales the picture up to 1080P. It's just not simple like the old NTSC SDTV days of everything being 480i/60. Or in other countries using say PAL SDTV, having 576i/50Hz or 50 frames per second.
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post #6 of 13 Old 07-27-2009, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBDragon View Post

I've seen a few places advertising a 1080i HDTV Plasma for example. This is B.S. No such thing. In fact when you then look at the resolution it's 768P.

Hitachi did have a number of native 1080i sets in the last few years - which was intended to match the 1080i broadcast format line-for-line. I believe they were the only company doing this - Alternative Lighting of Surfaces (ALiS), later known as "Clear Window", technology. Apparently, the biggest weakness of ALiS is poor black levels. Whatever it was, they are no longer using this technology.
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post #7 of 13 Old 07-27-2009, 10:00 PM
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Ummm, really, I don't see the point in doing such a thing. 1080P is showing the SAME PICTURE just smoother. Besides what about the 720P channels? Now the whole format line for line garbage is mute. After looking up some info, it basically a way to make the Plasma CHEAPER, so it's no surprise the black levels were also poor.
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post #8 of 13 Old 07-27-2009, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBDragon View Post

Ummm, really, I don't see the point in doing such a thing. 1080P is showing the SAME PICTURE just smoother. Besides what about the 720P channels? Now the whole format line for line garbage is mute. After looking up some info, it basically a way to make the Plasma CHEAPER, so it's no surprise the black levels were also poor.

It was designed for 1080i, thereby making the resulting images as smooth and film-like as possible. That's what Hitachi tried to achieve with all its plasma technology, whether ALiS or WXGA. When it was first introduced, the idea of 1080p signals was definitely in its infancy. It seemed to be a realization that broadcast signals were never going to be more than 1080i. For a while, this technology was featured only in their 42" sets; the 55" ones were always WXGA. In 2007, I think all their sets were ALiS, and then they eliminated it entirely for 2008 and beyond. Hitachi plasmas were never cheap, although I suspect that had more to do with the materials they used in building them and the features included. As far as I know, no other manufacturer ever used this technology. I suppose one can draw his or her own conclusions from that, although consumer price sensitivity seems to be a major factor in how the plasma market has evolved.
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post #9 of 13 Old 07-28-2009, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy714 View Post

Do I have to set this in the TV settings to bring it up to 1080P then? Because when I flip to my HDMI input it shows '1080i @ 60hz' at the top left.

You are seeing the input resolution.

As others have posted, your diplay converts everything to it's native resolution. In your case that seems to be 1080p.

If your set de-interlaces correctly, nothing is lost going from 1080i to 1080p.

Enjoy.
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post #10 of 13 Old 07-28-2009, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JBDragon View Post

HD TV programs are broadcast at either 720P or 1080i. Most channels are in 1080i because of the higher resolution, but a few channels like ESPN use 720P for the Fast action in sports. All HDTV's, LCD's or Plasma's will display that 720P or 1080i picture in it's OWN NATIVE RESOLUTION. For example a 720P Plasma HDTV is normally 768P! So no matter what, the 720P picture is scaled up, or the 1080i picture is scaled down and De-Interlaced. On a 1080P HDTV, the 720P picture is scaled up to 1080P and the 1080i picture is just De-Interlaced. Plasma and LCD displays are PROGRESSIVE. They CAN'T display a interlaced picture. A CRT(TUBE) HDTV on the other hand do, which is why they are 1080i. Or in case of a SDTV, 480i. Which when watching a 1080i picture they don't have to do anything. Trying to send a 1080P picture takes way to much bandwidth.

1080i and 1080P are the EXACT same resolution, 1920x1080. Most TV's in the U.S. show 60 frames per second, so with 1080P you can get a full 60 frames per second. Because each pass on the screen shows the FULL Progressive Picture. For a true Interlace SDTV or HDTV, it takes 2 passes, a Odd line pass and then a Even line pass to make a complete Picture, so this really gives you 30 frames per second. Most MOVIES on Blu-Ray are 1080P/24 or 24 frames per second. That's because that's how it's shown in the theater. To get 60 frames per second out of the 24 frames per second on Blu-Ray(And DVD also) they use 2:3 Pull-down. First frame shown 2 times, the second frame shown 3 times, the 3rd frame shown 2 times and so on and so on. 11222334445566677888 This gets you 60 frames out of 24 frames!! Because some people notice this juddering effect, they came out with 120Hz HDTV's or other speeds to even it out. So for 120Hz HDTV's, which means it's showing 120 frames per second, your now doing 5:5 pull-down. So it's 1111122222333334444455555, you get 120 frames from 24 frames, but since it's even the effect is gone.

Point being Blu-Ray is showing less frames at 1080P/24 then a 1080i/30 or 1080P/60 HDTV. I've seen a few places advertising a 1080i HDTV Plasma for example. This is B.S. No such thing. In fact when you then look at the resolution it's 768P. They just allow a 1080i input signal which the TV once again De-interlaces and scales the picture down to 768P. The HDTV will Display what it's source INPUT is, but no matter what, it's doing what it needs to, to display it on it's screen at it's Native Resolution. Hell the early 1080P HDTV's didn't allow a 1080P Input, only up to 1080i. There was nothing out to send a 1080P Signal to the HDTV, until really the PS3 and Blu-Ray. I'd also say HD DVD, but most of them were 1080i early on which generally is just as good unless the HDTV's Deinterlacer wasn't the best. Later on the Xbox 360 was updated to support 1080P also as when it was first released could only go up to 1080i.

So Time Warner, or Comcast and all the others, or your Antenna, get 720P or 1080i. You have a 1080P HDTV and are watching a 1080i channel, there's generally no scaling going on, just De-Interlacing. That means getting the 540 Odd frame and then the 540 even frame, Combining the 2 together to be shown at the same time, which of course would also mean showing that complete frame twice to get the 60 frames per second. With the few 720P sources, your already getting 60 frames per second, so your HDTV just scales the picture up to 1080P. It's just not simple like the old NTSC SDTV days of everything being 480i/60. Or in other countries using say PAL SDTV, having 576i/50Hz or 50 frames per second.

very impressive reply.... but i have a question: with SA 8300 HDC will be better to set up the resolution fixed @ 720P or 1080i? my tv is a panny plasma 720p th-50px80u
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post #11 of 13 Old 07-28-2009, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBDragon View Post

HD TV programs are broadcast at either 720P or 1080i.

Broadcasting in Europe is heading towards 1080p50. ORF have chosen 1080p50. 1080p50 is over twice the full 1920x1080 progressive frame rate that Blu-ray is capable of.
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Or in other countries using say PAL SDTV, having 576i/50Hz or 50 frames per second.

50 fields per second ie. 25 full frames.
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Broadcasting in Europe is heading towards 1080p50. ORF have chosen 1080p50. 1080p50 is over twice the full 1920x1080 progressive frame rate that Blu-ray is capable of.

Can I see some links to this info Joe - please. AFAIK - Freeview the largest OTA system has no HD channels yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeview_(UK)

And I haven't seen anything about SKY TV offerring 1080x50P
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post #13 of 13 Old 07-28-2009, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Broadcasting in Europe is heading towards 1080p50. ORF have chosen 1080p50. 1080p50 is over twice the full 1920x1080 progressive frame rate that Blu-ray is capable of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Can I see some links to this info Joe - please. AFAIK - Freeview the largest OTA system has no HD channels yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeview_(UK)

And I haven't seen anything about SKY TV offerring 1080x50P

Freeview is currently standard definition, but Freeview HD is supposed to be launching in December this year in some UK areas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p

Quote:
In Europe, 1080p25 signals have been supported by the DVB suite of broadcasting standards; higher frame rates, such as 1080p50 and 1080p60, have been foreseen as the future broadcasting standard...

Starting Fall 2009, ETSI and EBU, the maintainers of DVB, will require that DVB-compatible digital receivers feature support for 1080p signals at 50/60 Hz and MPEG-4 AVC High Profile Level 4.2 with Scalable Video Coding extensions. [7][8] SVC enables forward compatibility with 1080p50 broadcasting for older MPEG-4 AVC receivers, so they will only recognize baseline SVC stream coded at a lower resolution/frame rate and gracefully ignore additional frames, while newer hardware will be able to decode full-resolution 1080p50 signal. EBU recommends that legacy hardware should at least not crash in presence of SVC or 1080p50 (and higher resolution) signals.

That doesn't mean that Freeview HD will initially use 1080p50 for a broadcast standard (they'll most likely broadcast in either 720p or 1080i - at least initially), and I think the first lot of Freeview HD decoders won't support decoding of a full 1080p50 signal, but as that quote above says, they should at least be compatible with the signal. Though the later ones should be fully capable of decoding the full 1080p50 signal for if/when they decide to broadcast using that format.

http://www.rts.org.uk/Info_page_two_...sp?art_id=7519
Quote:
BSkyB, for example, is taking the opportunity to outfit its new studio and playout complex at Osterley “targeting 1080p/50 as the production format”, says the broadcaster’s technology platforms director, Troy Smith.

The facility is designed for Sky’s sports and entertainment programming and will come on stream in mid-2011. Sony will design the installation but won’t specify kit until 2010

http://www.digitaltveurope.net/news_..._for_transport
Quote:
Austrian public broadcaster ORF has chosen technology company T-VIPS’ JPEG-2000 IP video contribution system as part of its migration to an IP backbone for HD programming in the 1080p/50 format.

ORF is the first national broadcaster to adopt 1080p/50. T-VIPS will enable the transport of video between ORF’s nine regional studios around Austria and the broadcaster’s headquarters in Vienna.

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