Which 3D format do you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Which 3D format do you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray?
Dolby 3D format 0 0%
Sensio 3D format 0 0%
Panasonic 3D format 0 0%
Other 3D format 0 0%
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post #31 of 275 Old 09-03-2009, 09:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Also:
The Panasonic format seems best as long as you can get the 48 full frames per second to fit on the disc. How much space does a typical 2ish hour movie take? Is there extra space on the disc without having to sacrifice? Will the spec need to also support tri-layer-75 GB discs or quad-layer 100 GB discs? Seems like you might as well, as long as you're breaking the mold and need new players.

As far as the 2D version goes, I assume that can just be on a different disc much the way they often do anaglyphic movies today.

The encode will be either 1080x24P or 1080x60i:

http://www.nabanet.com/nabaweb/docum...P1_PFannon.pdf

Using MPEG4 AVC MVC - they can extract a 2D version from the 3D encode. One single version of the movie
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post #32 of 275 Old 09-03-2009, 01:08 PM
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Lee, I think you're missing the "x2" on your specs. The document you posted said it would be:
1080x24p x2
or
1080x60i x2

Assuming current players couldn't be updated to use the codec to perform the extraction (that is currently and unknown, right?) I mostly meant that you could have legacy compliant 2D on one disc and new format 3D on the other disc so you don't have to worry about leaving consumers and their tech behind. Much like the BD that currently include a DVD as a 2nd or 3rd disc.

Also, Sony promised the PS3 would play 4D games right out of the box (with 2 1080p monitors, no less!)... so you'll have to excuse me if a promise like that is taken with a family sized box of salt grains. I mean, I hope they can pull it off. Since a large percentage of the available Blu Ray players are infact PS3's, that would mean a huge install base of inhome 3D capable players... but I won't personally be putting any money on that particular horse.
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post #33 of 275 Old 09-03-2009, 01:17 PM
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The baseline H.264 MVC stream (left eye) can be decoded by existing players. 3D-capable players would detect, extract, and use the additional enhancement MVC stream (to generate right eye information).

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post #34 of 275 Old 09-03-2009, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Lee, I think you're missing the "x2" on your specs. The document you posted said it would be:
1080x24p x2
or
1080x60i x2

Assuming current players couldn't be updated to use the codec to perform the extraction (that is currently and unknown, right?) I mostly meant that you could have legacy compliant 2D on one disc and new format 3D on the other disc so you don't have to worry about leaving consumers and their tech behind. Much like the BD that currently include a DVD as a 2nd or 3rd disc.

Also, Sony promised the PS3 would play 4D games right out of the box (with 2 1080p monitors, no less!)... so you'll have to excuse me if a promise like that is taken with a family sized box of salt grains. I mean, I hope they can pull it off. Since a large percentage of the available Blu Ray players are infact PS3's, that would mean a huge install base of inhome 3D capable players... but I won't personally be putting any money on that particular horse.

Quote:
Sony will launch a full range of 3D home entertainment products during 2010. Speaking at the first major press conference of this year's IFA tech-fest, CEO Howard Stringer announced that the Japanese giant was fully behind the BDA's standardisation of a Blu-ray specification for Full HD 3D, and that it would release screens to support the development, alongside a new generation of Blu-ray machines.

'Today 3D is clearly on its way to the mass-market, and as with high-definition a few years back, there are a variety of issues yet to be addressed, but the 3D train is on the track and we at Sony are ready to drive it home!' he declared.

Stringer also promised that the PlayStation 3 would be upgraded to support 3D playback of BD discs during 2010. Indeed, the Sony chief made a point of highlighting the 3D potential of future PS3 games, showing clips from Motorstorm Pacific Rift and Grand Turismo in the format.
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/blog...rvice+03+09+09
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post #35 of 275 Old 09-04-2009, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbug View Post

Quote:
Stringer also promised that the PlayStation 3 would be upgraded to support 3D playback of BD discs during 2010. Indeed, the Sony chief made a point of highlighting the 3D potential of future PS3 games, showing clips from Motorstorm Pacific Rift and Grand Turismo in the format.
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/blog...rvice+03+09+09

Yes, that is the promise quoted by Lee that I was referring to when I said that I wasn't quite ready to take it to the bank. Sony likes to make a lot of promises on which they never deliver.
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post #36 of 275 Old 09-04-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Yes, that is the promise quoted by Lee that I was referring to when I said that I wasn't quite ready to take it to the bank. Sony likes to make a lot of promises on which they never deliver.

Sony has been golden on updates to the PS3. That is why the PS3 is at the top of the list among BD players. I am impressed at all the updates that have come out since I got my PS3 a couple of years ago. I have no doubt that the 3D firmware update will happen. The 3D Avatar game will be a wash on the PS3 without it and Sony was showing off the 3D gaming ability at CES 09 (which was a wink and a hint). Sony is 100% behind 3D for gaming and BD movies.
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post #37 of 275 Old 09-04-2009, 08:20 AM
 
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PS3's new 3D mode captured on video, coming in 2010 to all existing games

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/04/p...-to-all-exist/
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post #38 of 275 Old 09-04-2009, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

The baseline H.264 MVC stream (left eye) can be decoded by existing players. 3D-capable players would detect, extract, and use the additional enhancement MVC stream (to generate right eye information).

Alright, good to know. I'll stop worrying about it.
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post #39 of 275 Old 09-04-2009, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbug View Post

Sony has been golden on updates to the PS3. That is why the PS3 is at the top of the list among BD players. I am impressed at all the updates that have come out since I got my PS3 a couple of years ago. I have no doubt that the 3D firmware update will happen. The 3D Avatar game will be a wash on the PS3 without it and Sony was showing off the 3D gaming ability at CES 09 (which was a wink and a hint). Sony is 100% behind 3D for gaming and BD movies.

Quote:
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PS3's new 3D mode captured on video, coming in 2010 to all existing games

I hope so.
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post #40 of 275 Old 09-06-2009, 03:26 PM
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http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/04/so...-all-ps3-games
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post #41 of 275 Old 09-08-2009, 09:24 AM
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So, back to my original concern about whether I buy a PS3 nowish, or wait until next year when hopefully we know more about 3D on BluRay...

Depending on the implementation, won't full 1080p x24 fps x2 potentially require HDMI 1.4? (or maybe something beyond 1.4 if that standard is already decided upon) When this all shakes out, will they release new PS3's with HDMI 1.4, or will they be able to handle that with a firmware update?
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post #42 of 275 Old 09-08-2009, 10:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

So, back to my original concern about whether I buy a PS3 nowish, or wait until next year when hopefully we know more about 3D on BluRay...

Depending on the implementation, won't full 1080p x24 fps x2 potentially require HDMI 1.4? (or maybe something beyond 1.4 if that standard is already decided upon) When this all shakes out, will they release new PS3's with HDMI 1.4, or will they be able to handle that with a firmware update?

Quote:
Stringer also promised that the PlayStation 3 would be upgraded to support 3D playback of BD discs during 2010. Indeed, the Sony chief made a point of highlighting the 3D potential of future PS3 games, showing clips from Motorstorm Pacific Rift and Grand Turismo in the format.

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/blog...rvice+03+09+09
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post #43 of 275 Old 09-08-2009, 02:20 PM
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Quote:

I'm honestly not trying to ask the same question over and over again, but seeing how I get the same answer it seems that most of you think it is the same question. So this is my attempt at answering it differently enough so as to not offend:

Isn't it reasonable to expect that the current PS3 could be updated to do some sort of half-width 3D but that the bandwidth required to do 1080p x 24hz x 2 would require a revision to the HDMI spec? Is it not also reasonable to expect that the current PS3 might not fully handle HDMI 1.4 (or beyond) with just software/firmware changes?
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post #44 of 275 Old 09-08-2009, 02:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

I'm honestly not trying to ask the same question over and over again, but seeing how I get the same answer it seems that most of you think it is the same question. So this is my attempt at answering it differently enough so as to not offend:

Isn't it reasonable to expect that the current PS3 could be updated to do some sort of half-width 3D but that the bandwidth required to do 1080p x 24hz x 2 would require a revision to the HDMI spec? Is it not also reasonable to expect that the current PS3 might not fully handle HDMI 1.4 (or beyond) with just software/firmware changes?

What is the bandwidth requirement of Full HD 3D? Is it greater than this?

New HDMI 1.3 capabilities include:

Quote:


•Higher speed: HDMI 1.3 increases its single-link bandwidth from 165MHz (4.95 gigabits per second) to 340 MHz (10.2 Gbps) to support the demands of future high definition display devices, such as higher resolutions, Deep Color™ and high frame rates. In addition, built into the HDMI 1.3 specification is the technical foundation that will let future versions of HDMI reach significantly higher speeds.

I don't believe (?) that 1.4 is a requirement just for 3D. What changes the requirement is wanting Ethernet Over HDMI and 3D. Then you are going to need not only 1.4 but a special cable(s).

Notice on page 4 of this PDF (Panasonics 3D system) under HDMI it says "single link."

http://www.nabanet.com/nabaweb/docum...P1_PFannon.pdf

I believe (?) that the FW UP will somehow reconfigure the CELL BE to do what is necessary to process and send the video stream. Look in The Official 3D Thread for an announcement about what Panasonic did to their Unipher SoC that was used in their modified BD player for 3D.
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post #45 of 275 Old 09-08-2009, 03:57 PM
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Thanks, Lee. That was more along the lines of the answer I was looking for.
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post #46 of 275 Old 09-09-2009, 10:23 PM
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Please read the articles you are putting in reference. Sensio will be a clear winner for the following reasons: 1- HD Quality (You would not notice a difference) 2- Only format that can compress a 3D image (Patent protected) 3- Require no additional bandwith, therefore compatible with current infrastructure 4- Compatibility with every delivery method: DVD, BD, Satellite, cable, internet,...
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Please read the articles you are putting in reference. Sensio will be a clear winner

video of sensio 3d tech demo


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post #48 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 3Dkid View Post

Please read the articles you are putting in reference. Sensio will be a clear winner for the following reasons: 1- HD Quality (You would not notice a difference) 2- Only format that can compress a 3D image (Patent protected) 3- Require no additional bandwith, therefore compatible with current infrastructure 4- Compatibility with every delivery method: DVD, BD, Satellite, cable, internet,...

Sorry, but for BD the bullet train already left the station...

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post #49 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

Sorry, but for BD the bullet train already left the station...

Have the BDA acted on what James Cameron and others have said about frame rates, or will it still be only 24p, 50i & 60i at 1920x1080?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Have the BDA acted on what James Cameron and others have said about frame rates, or will it still be only 24p, 50i & 60i at 1920x1080?

Blu-ray Disc Association Talks 3D
Quote:


The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDR) has announced its plans to incorporate 3D video into the Blu-ray format. The BDR says that it is working with major movie studios, IT, and consumer electronics companies to devise a standard for 3D Blu-ray films.

By coming up with a set standard the BDR can ensure a set level of quality for Blu-ray films across the platform. The specification will require the delivery of 1080p resolution to each eye and backwards compatibility with discs and players. This will require all 3D discs to also include a 2D version of the film.

http://www.i4u.com/article26716.html
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post #51 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 12:06 PM
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For the latest 3D to 2D converter technology with option to select the left or the right image :



The one on the right might kill the ansi contrast performance.
Early reports about some firmware issues causing double images because the automatic left/right sync control seem to have some issues.
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post #52 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

Sorry, but for BD the bullet train already left the station...


Are you suggesting that the decision by the BD association was made?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Dkid View Post

Are you suggesting that the decision by the BD association was made?

3DKid

When they made the requirements:

1. Must be Full HD for each eye

3. Must be backwards compatible (2D extraction)

Sounds like it to me. The Panasonic 3D system.
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Just my opinion, but I have thought from the beginning that Panny would be the one with the BDA blessing. I just hope it works as well as we would all like.
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Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

Just my opinion, but I have thought from the beginning that Panny would be the one with the BDA blessing. I just hope it works as well as we would all like.

Should be as good as what you would see if you went to a Digital Cinema to see a 3D movie (a native 3D movie - not all are).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

When they made the requirements:

1. Must be Full HD for each eye

3. Must be backwards compatible (2D extraction)

Sounds like it to me. The Panasonic 3D system.

Not just yet.
Panasonic uses the frame sequential technology for full 1080p, and so does sony.
Panasonic uses a 3d tv with shutter glasses, and so does sony.

"Sony's 3D compatible "BRAVIA" LCD TVs incorporate frame sequential display and active-shutter glass systems"
link

"Sony announced yesterday, on the eve of the IFA 2009 electronics show in Germany, it will be offering 3D HDTVs for sale in 2010! Sony plans to market a series of its Bravia LCD HDTVs as well as 3D capable Blu-ray products, 3D capable VAIO computers, digital cameras and updated 3D capable version of its PlayStation3 (PS3D) gaming console."
link

It's only unkown if Sony 3d in 2010 is backward compatible showing 2d as well as 3d on disk.

Q: Among various formats of 3D technology, with or without viewing glasses, in half HD, full HD, frame sequential or line by line, which one has Panasonic selected, and why?
A: Panasonic has selected full HD video in frame sequential format. This format is used when showing Hollywood 3D movies in theaters,

Q: What will the 3D television viewing glasses be officially called?
A: We are still studying this point. Panasonic currently calls them “3D (Active) Shutter Glasses” inside the company.

pdf showing the rest of the Q&A
panasonic video showing 3d tv


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

When they made the requirements:

1. Must be Full HD for each eye

3. Must be backwards compatible (2D extraction)

Sounds like it to me. The Panasonic 3D system.

You missed two requirements...

- capable of bringing cinema-quality 3D to the home
- deployable in 2010

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

Not just yet.
Panasonic uses the frame sequential technology for full 1080p, and so does sony.
Panasonic uses a 3d tv with shutter glasses, and so does sony.
link

It's only unkown if Sony 3d in 2010 is backward compatible showing 2d as well as 3d on disk.

Everyone has to separate what 3D technology is used for BD versus the 3DTV technology...

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post #59 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

Everyone has to separate what 3D technology is used for BD versus the 3DTV technology...

I updated post #56.

If you look at the linked video panasonic is showing. It shows that frame sequential is for 1080p, and this uses film shot with a special 3d camera.

The 3dtv shows the right camera picture, then the glasses shutter so the right eye sees that frame, then the tv shows the left picture from the 3d camera and the shutter glasses worn over the eyes shows the left picture and blinds the right eye.
That's how frame sequential works.

So since sony is using this same hw system it makes sens they would use 3d cameras the same way.
however it is not yet absolutely sure since they have not shown a video explaining it as panasonic has.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

I updated post #56.

If you look at the linked video panasonic is showing. It shows that frame sequential is for 1080p, and this uses film shot with a special 3d camera.

The 3dtv shows the right camera picture, then the glasses shutter so the right eye sees that frame, then the tv shows the left picture from the 3d camera and the shutter glasses worn over the eyes shows the left picture and blinds the right eye.
That's how frame sequential works.

So since sony is using this same hw system it makes sens they would use 3d cameras the same way.
however it is not yet absolutely sure since they have not shown a video explaining it as panasonic has.

What Keith is saying (I believe) is that you have to seperate the 3D system that is going to be used for BD (which looks like the Panasonic 3D system) and the technology that the HDTV CEM's are going to use for their 3DTVs.

Panasonic is going to use PDP for their 3DTV. Sony (like other CEMs) no longer make PDPs so they are going to use LCD as their platform for 3D. There are specific issues in displaying 3D and each platform needs to deal with them.

AFAIK, Sony does not have a 3D system that they are proposing to the BDA.
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