Which 3D format do you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Which 3D format do you think the BDA will pick for Blu-ray?
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post #61 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 05:14 PM
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I can't find anything about sony making a proposal to the bda for 3d standardization online.

There were rumblings that sony wasn't using active shutter and pansonic was, then they say sony will now use active shutter glasses.

So the hw panasonic is showing is what sony is using, but only panasonic is applying to the bda so their technology is the blu ray 3d standard.


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post #62 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What Keith is saying (I believe) is that you have to seperate the 3D system that is going to be used for BD (which looks like the Panasonic 3D system) and the technology that the HDTV CEM's are going to use for their 3DTVs.

Yes! The capture and display stuff has nothing to do with BD.

You have 3D capture, 3D distribution, and 3D display.

The 3D distribution format is dependent on the distribution medium, ie. BD, broadcast, etc. So the 3D BD specs know nothing about the capture and display side of things.

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post #63 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

Yes! The capture and display stuff has nothing to do with BD.

You have 3D capture, 3D distribution, and 3D display.

The 3D distribution format is dependent on the distribution medium, ie. BD, broadcast, etc. So the 3D BD specs know nothing about the capture and display side of things.

Keith:

I have been studing this sentence:

Quote:
Panasonic is not planning to standardize the techniques for displaying 3D imagery. At CEATEC Japan 2008, the company exhibited a 103-inch plasma display panel (PDP) television displaying 3D pictures (see Fig). It featured dual drive integrated circuits (IC) to achieve a high 120 frames/s, and modified phosphors to shorten plasma emission rise/fall times.

I understand the need for the dual drive IC to get to 120 FPS. What I could use a little (OK - a lot ) of help with is the shorter rise/fall times - which I understand (?) is a product/measurement of the response time of the pixels. Either BTB or GTG depending on how the manufacturer makes the measurement with BTB being the hardest to accomplish.

PDPs have very fast response times - in the order of .002ms. (Do not know if this is BTB or GTG)

Does the size of a panel affect the response time of the pixels?

LCD's have a much slower response time - like 4ms. (GTG)

Is response time that much of an issue when displaying 3D versus 2D (both HD of course)?
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post #64 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Does the size of a panel affect the response time of the pixels?

Don't know, I'm not a PDP kinda guy...

Quote:
Is response time that much of an issue when displaying 3D versus 2D (both HD of course)?

I read a white paper that mentioned frame-to-frame crosstalk affecting 3D quality on 120Hz 3D LCD HDTVs, so suggested 240Hz is really needed.

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post #65 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 06:31 PM
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Section a

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Keith:
Is response time that much of an issue when displaying 3D versus 2D (both HD of course)?

I was interested in your question, so I googled the answer and pieced together a information kit for you and others to read.

I had collected the posts I had with Richard Paul and the other posts I made on the subject and put them all into this post.
But after having researched the subject more I have better information here: link


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post #66 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 06:59 PM
 
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^^^

8:13:

Thank you very much for that PDF.
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post #67 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

When they made the requirements:

1. Must be Full HD for each eye

3. Must be backwards compatible (2D extraction)

Sounds like it to me. The Panasonic 3D system.

When you say "must be full HD for each eye" - do you mean 1080p - or just 1920x1080?
Doesn't the Panasonic allow 24p and 60i? If it must be "full HD" (I assume you mean 1080p?) or that is the "minimum requirement" does that mean Panasonic's 60i can't be used for the BDA's 3D and it will only allow 24p and nothing else in 3D or will they allow 48p, 60p etc. at 1920x1080? If they're making it so existing players can read the left eye's video stream and output that as 2D, I suppose that will rule out any upgrade to >24p 3D (assuming we ignore the fact that 30p can be stored in a 60i stream). If they made it so the 3D players could do formats that current players can't like 1080p48, 1080p50, 1080p60 (with or without stereoscopic), they could still include a 2D video in a format readable by current machines - ie. I don't see why they have to limit the 3D system so the left eye video stream has to be readable as the 2D version by existing players as they could include another video for current players. I know it would take more space, but it could be included on a different disc if necessary, and it would allow for the very best 3D system - one that would be able to easily play Avatar 2
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post #68 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 11:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

When you say "must be full HD for each eye" - do you mean 1080p - or just 1920x1080?
Doesn't the Panasonic allow 24p and 60i? If it must be "full HD" (I assume you mean 1080p?) or that is the "minimum requirement" does that mean Panasonic's 60i can't be used for the BDA's 3D and it will only allow 24p and nothing else in 3D or will they allow 48p, 60p etc. at 1920x1080? If they're making it so existing players can read the left eye's video stream and output that as 2D, I suppose that will rule out any upgrade to >24p 3D (assuming we ignore the fact that 30p can be stored in a 60i stream). If they made it so the 3D players could do formats that current players can't like 1080p48, 1080p50, 1080p60 (with or without stereoscopic), they could still include a 2D video in a format readable by current machines - ie. I don't see why they have to limit the 3D system so the left eye video stream has to be readable as the 2D version by existing players as they could include another video for current players. I know it would take more space, but it could be included on a different disc if necessary, and it would allow for the very best 3D system - one that would be able to easily play Avatar 2

Full HD = 1920x1080x24P and 1920x1080x60i. . . . per eye

Those are the two resolutions to be used with the Panasonic 3D system on the BD itself. One for film based content and the other for HD-CAM content. Just like today with 2D BD.

No 30P . . . No 48P . . . . No 60P

The beauty of the Panasonic system is that they are using "off the shelf" items to get a 3D standard built for BD which also produces the highest resolution for 3D.
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post #69 of 275 Old 09-10-2009, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Full HD = 1920x1080x24P and 1920x1080x60i. . . . per eye

Those are the two resolutions to be used with the Panasonic 3D system on the BD itself. One for film based content and the other for HD-CAM content. Just like today with 2D BD.

No 30P . . . No 48P . . . . No 60P

Thanks. That sucks . Looks like the Blu-ray 3D system won't be able to show Avatar 2 properly . Is there a link anywhere where the BDA say they won't be using any of those formats (eg. 30p, 48p, 50p, 60p) for their 3D upgrade to Blu-ray?
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post #70 of 275 Old 09-11-2009, 12:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Thanks. That sucks . Looks like the Blu-ray 3D system won't be able to show Avatar 2 properly . Is there a link anywhere where the BDA say they won't be using any of those formats (eg. 30p, 48p, 50p, 60p) for their 3D upgrade to Blu-ray?

Quote:


Of course, the ideal format is 3-D/2K/48 fps projection. I'd love to have done "Avatar" at 48 frames. But I have to fight these battles one at a time. I'm just happy people are waking up to 3-D.

Maybe on "Avatar 2."

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=462314016

Since when did "maybe" become "reality?"
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post #71 of 275 Old 09-11-2009, 07:57 AM
 
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Panasonic Full HD 3D experience eyes-on

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/11/p...ience-eyes-on/
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post #72 of 275 Old 09-11-2009, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

He said that a 120hz frame rate is 8.33ms, and that is too long for the 3D.
He said what is needed is ~ 3ms or > 0.26 ms response time.

I would point out that is an abstract from someone trying to sell a new technology for LCD displays and the result they achieved was a hold time of 3 ms. I see no evidence that it is necessary and the issue of hold time with LCD has been discussed dozens if not hundreds of times on the forum. LCD can do 3D at 120 Hz and there are already a few LCD computer monitors that do that.


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Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

So now we see that Sony and other lcd tv manufactures should sell only 480Hz or faster tv's for 3d if they use frame sequential technology.

Considering there are people who are fine with LCD at 60 Hz can we avoid getting into a LCD vs Plasma debate? At the end of the day it is a matter of personal opinion since both technologies have advantages and issues. In other words it is a chocolate vs vanilla debate.
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post #73 of 275 Old 09-11-2009, 10:50 PM
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Richard Paul,

I understand the forum has talked about lcd hold times before.

Up till now "frame sequential 3d" has not been a topic though?
If it has then you have discussed how hold time of 120hz tv's are too slow?
Because the pdf directly states 120hz lcd tv is far too slow for frame sequential 3d.

So are you saying frame sequential/time sequential 3d has been discussed before with references?

The pdf says that even at 3ms there is crosstalk, not much but it's there.


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post #74 of 275 Old 09-12-2009, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

- Remember that the pdf showed the hold time nessessary for no eye fatigue was ~ 3ms and no higher?

No, what it says is that large 3D crosstalk might introduce visual fatigue and the authors of the Toshiba article never give a hold time number for that. They do state that 120 Hz LCDs would have 3D crosstalk but they never even mention 240 Hz LCDs.


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Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

Because the pdf directly states 120hz lcd tv is far too slow for frame sequential 3d.

In the second article in that PDF document Toshiba Matsushita Display Technology technology is promoting a new LCD technology that they call OCB LCD. In that article though they never say that a standard 120 Hz LCD wouldn't work but instead that it would have 3D crosstalk. Also I have to point out that one of the main features of the OCB technology is that they use a blinking backlight system. This article states that OCB displays use 120 Hz LCDs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

So are you saying frame sequential/time sequential 3d has been discussed before with references?

Well from what I can see your conclusion doesn't even match the references you are using and here are the conclusions of the two articles in that PDF document which talk about hold times for 3D LCD displays:

240 Hz LCD
Quote:


MPRT of the new 240Hz LCD-TV has been measured at 4.7ms, providing a level of motion picture quality comparable to that of CRTs. Moreover, this 240Hz LCD driving technology makes it possible to deliver a full resolution 3D display by using LC shutter glasses, thereby enabling 3D to become mainstream technology for television.

120 Hz LCD with blinking backlight
Quote:


We have realized high quality 3D display system using timesequential OCB LCD. This is 3D crosstalk-free, no pseudoscopy, no 3D moiré in wide viewing angle. It was achieved by fast response OCB panel, fast response OCB active shutter glasses and newly developed blinking backlight control.

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post #75 of 275 Old 09-12-2009, 07:57 PM
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1. with Panasonic format, I can still see flickering.
2. regardless of format, as long as they require LCD shutter glasses, the become more cost prohibitive (you'll need to buy a sync transmitter and a pair of glasses for each viewer -- my theatre alone sits 6 people) and the glasses are too heavy for movie-length feature. I've tried IMAX 3D with shutter glasses. Even those 30-40 minute feature are tiring for me -- due to the weight of the glasses.
3. if I suddenly have to buy new cable, new receiver, new BD player, new projector... I'm not choosing any version anytime soon. Maybe in its 3rd generation, but for the first time I won't be an early adopter.

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post #76 of 275 Old 09-12-2009, 09:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

1. with Panasonic format, I can still see flickering.

1. You can see flickering at 60 FPS per eye?

2. Flickering has nothing to do with 'the Panasonic format." It has to do with the display.
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post #77 of 275 Old 09-12-2009, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

1. You can see flickering at 60 FPS per eye?

2. Flickering has nothing to do with 'the Panasonic format." It has to do with the display and shutter glasses response time.

Fixed quote by adding part in bold.
See below as to why I added the part in bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

b.) "The demand for 3D active shutter glasses is the same as that for
the LCD panel, that is, fast response of LC. The slow LC response
shall cause the 3D-crosstalk and shortage of luminance. So we
also applied OCB to active-shutter glasses."



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post #78 of 275 Old 09-12-2009, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

1. You can see flickering at 60 FPS per eye?

2. Flickering has nothing to do with 'the Panasonic format." It has to do with the display.

For the 3D system, if it's showing at 120hz (60fps per eye), isn't one of shutters on the glasses blank for 1/60th of a second, then showing an image for 1/60th of a second, then blank for another 1/60th of a second? Wouldn't that flicker?
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post #79 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

Interpolation is not the same technology as the one in the second article.

True, but both motion interpolation and backlight scanning deal with the issue of hold time and both of them reduce 3D crosstalk. Also there are already a few LCD displays that use both motion interpolation and backlight scanning such as the Toshiba ClearScan 240 LCD displays.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

From this point that even at 3ms they found crosstalk. Does it not make sense that at 4.17ms the crosstalk would be noticably worse?

At 3 ms the authors of the Toshiba article state that 3D crosstalk is "very low and almost the same as the visibility thresholds". You say that it "makes sense" that 4.17 ms would be "noticeably worse" than 3 ms. Can you state for a fact that the difference would be noticeable? If the difference is noticeable can you state for a fact that the difference would be huge, moderate, or small?

You have previously said that 240 Hz 3D LCDs would cause "all kinds of eye strain", that "it hurts peoples eyes", and that it will "alienate people from 3d". Obviously you believe that there would be a noticeable difference and a huge one at that but without evidence all I see is assumptions being stated as facts. I currently have no reason to believe that 240 Hz LCDs would not be acceptable as 3D displays and Samsung believes that they would be acceptable.
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post #80 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 01:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

For the 3D system, if it's showing at 120hz (60fps per eye), isn't one of shutters on the glasses blank for 1/60th of a second, then showing an image for 1/60th of a second, then blank for another 1/60th of a second? Wouldn't that flicker?

IMO - no - too fast. Do you see flicker watching 1080i HD?
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post #81 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

1. You can see flickering at 60 FPS per eye?

2. Flickering has nothing to do with 'the Panasonic format." It has to do with the display.

Yes, I can still see flickering at 60 fps per eye. The flickering has to do with the LCD shutter glasses, not the display, I think. Sony shows the 120 fps per eye version, I don't see any flickering at all but the brightness uniformity throughout the frame is not perfect yet.

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post #82 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

IMO - no - too fast. Do you see flicker watching 1080i HD?

For me, yes, but only in the periphery. The same goes with Omnimax. I see flicker in the periphery.

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post #83 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 05:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

For me, yes, but only in the periphery. The same goes with Omnimax. I see flicker in the periphery.

I can understand flicker from film based 3D because the frame rate is only 48.
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post #84 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

What I made was a white color video with a single black screen every 61 frames in the 60 video file. If the black screen is seen then it means the fps was not fast enough for that black screen to be unnoticable.
The goal of course is that when the black screen flickers the fps is so fast you don't notice it.
I got the idea to do this from Joe Blogs post.
He said that when the shutter closes don't you notice it since the hz is only 60? the answer is yes, look at the 60 fps video file for yourself.

Doesn't the black frame need to be every other frame of the video, not once every 61 frames? eg. for the 1/60th of a second where the left eye is showing it's image, isn't the right eye blanked out? So shouldn't the eye's footage go 1/60th a second showing a frame, 1/60th of a second showing black (blanked out), then 1/60th of a second showing a frame, etc.?

Or would the Panasonic / Blu-ray 3D system really be the equivalent of 120fps (couldn't a 120hz TV be capable of displaying that if it could accept that source)? ie. each eye's frame held for 1/120th of a second then blanked out for 1/120th of a second, then a frame shown... ie. the would the flickering be half as much as in the attached gif? It's a shame I can't test a 120fps gif/vid with frame, black, frame, black because my pc/monitor is now 60fps.
LL
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post #85 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 02:19 PM
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The one that will be eventually allow you to experience 3-D without the stupid glasses.


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post #86 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 03:35 PM
 
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The one that will be eventually allow you to experience 3-D without the stupid glasses.

That is not a format. That is a special type of display called an Autostereoscopic 3D display. And they say the industry is between 5 and 10 years away from bringing those out to consumers at a price that is consumer firendly.
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post #87 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

I have made video files that indeed show my point so you can see it with your very own eye

link

I have indeed made not one, not two, but 3 video files.
Each video file is a different fps: 60, 120, 240.

In order to play the video file you need to open the file with mplayerc, but that is in the file as well with instructions.

The 120fps file is called "240", because like David said the speed is divided up into either eye, so 120fps per eye for a 240hz lcd monitor.

What I made was a white color video with a single black screen every 61 frames in the 60 video file. If the black screen is seen then it means the fps was not fast enough for that black screen to be unnoticable.
The goal of course is that when the black screen flickers the fps is so fast you don't notice it.

Do you have any evidence that this is a valid test to analyze the amount of 3D crosstalk for a display? The ability for a person to detect the flicker of a black image during white color video may have little to no relation to 3D crosstalk which is why I am asking for evidence that this is a valid test for 3D crosstalk. If this is merely an assumption you have than aren't you trying to prove your previous assumptions with a test based on another assumption?
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post #88 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Do you have any evidence that this is a valid test to analyze the amount of 3D crosstalk for a display? The ability for a person to detect the flicker of a black image during white color video may have little to no relation to 3D crosstalk which is why I am asking for evidence that this is a valid test for 3D crosstalk. If this is merely an assumption you have than aren't you trying to prove your previous assumptions with a test based on another assumption?

If there was 3D crosstalk on a TV, ie. the left/right eye view not changing to the right/left eye view fast enough, wouldn't one way of solving the crosstalk be to make the shutter glasses stay shut for slightly longer, ie. at the point where the crosstalk was? And if so, wouldn't that make the flicker/blanking of the video more obvious? ie. the blanking for each eye would then be for longer than a frame for that eye was being displayed.
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post #89 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 05:12 PM
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I merged my posts about this hold time Richard and I are talking about into post #65.
I find it's easier for people to understand if they read it for the first time to merge posts that way.

Anyway, here is my reply to Richard's previous reply to me.

_______

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Do you have any evidence that this is a valid test to analyze the amount of 3D crosstalk for a display? The ability for a person to detect the flicker of a black image during white color video may have little to no relation to 3D crosstalk which is why I am asking for evidence that this is a valid test for 3D crosstalk. If this is merely an assumption you have than aren't you trying to prove your previous assumptions with a test based on another assumption?

(1) "In Figure 5, it can be seen that from 0 to 17ms the left eye of the LCS glasses is transmissive and the right eye of the LCS glasses is opaque.
At about 17ms, the LCS glasses switch from one state to the other, and in the example of Figure 5 the afterglow of the phosphors is still decaying from the first field,

hence light from the left eye image will leak into the right eye producing crosstalk."

(2) "The rise time from all gray level to
black is very fast, < 0.26ms (Fig.4). This means display image
can be resetted immediately and it make no influence to next
image. In this case very small 3D crosstalk is achieved."

(3) "The more BFI that was selected, the dimmer the display became."

(4) "The slower response of LC shall
cause the 3D crosstalk and the loss of luminance."




1.) http://cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2...s_karvinen.pdf
page 7, section 3.4

2.) http://www42.tok2.com/home/ksatsch/p...aySystems).pdf
page 6, section 2.2

3.) http://cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2...oods_sehic.pdf
page 4, section 5.1

4.) http://www42.tok2.com/home/ksatsch/p...aySystems).pdf
page 5, section 2.2


Summary. The crosstalk and loss of luminance (1), is due to slow lc response time (4).
A sympotom of slow lc is a noticably dimmer display (3).
The speed of the display makes the crosstalk less noticable and the loss of luminance less noticable, because the black screen shown is less noticable because it disappears very fast (2).

What this tells me is that: if the black seen in the videos I made are noticable or not, it is because the black screen is less noticable due to disappearing very fast.
This is similar to the fast lc response time made the black screen less noticable (2).
By fast lc response time they mean the speed comparable to lcd's refresh time.


There is new, and then you are new.
This is a moral of the bears and their cereal.
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post #90 of 275 Old 09-13-2009, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

1.) http://cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2...s_karvinen.pdf
page 7, section 3.4

Interesting, in this article they tested traditional 2D Plasma displays for 3D use and it notes that 3D crosstalk was between 9.9% and 38.3% depending on the Plasma display they tested. A 3D DLP projector had a 3D crosstalk of 5.5% and the article says that most of that was due to the 3D shutter glasses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 8:13 View Post

What this tells me is that: if the black seen in the videos I made are noticable or not, it is because the black screen is less noticable due to disappearing very fast.

You have posted comments from various articles but none of them refer to the test you made. You are making an assumption with your test and you can't prove assumptions with more assumptions.
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