When is a movie too OLD for Blu-Ray? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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There are movies I have on LD and never bought on DVD, and there are definitely movies I've bought on DVD that I'll never get on BD. The pattern emerging seems to be the older the movie, the less it seems to benefit from a format upgrade. Now, obviously there are exceptions, but there are also GREAT examples of where a studio, for whatever reason, just doesn't make the investment necessary for an "HD worthy" title. Heck, I still have LD's with commentaries that can't be found on DVD, let alone BD. In the long run, this will limit the number of BD's I purchase based on my existing collection. Anyone else feel this way?

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post #2 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanton View Post

There are movies I have on LD and never bought on DVD, and there are definitely movies I've bought on DVD that I'll never get on BD. The pattern emerging seems to be the older the movie, the less it seems to benefit from a format upgrade. Now, obviously there are exceptions, but there are also GREAT examples of where a studio, for whatever reason, just doesn't make the investment necessary for an "HD worthy" title. Heck, I still have LD's with commentaries that can't be found on DVD, let alone BD. In the long run, this will limit the number of BD's I purchase based on my existing collection. Anyone else feel this way?

Anything shot on film can look great on BD but like you said in most cases the older the film is it generally needs more love and care to get to looking like something Criterion would generally release.

So I guess yes and no?
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post #3 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 10:07 AM
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I don't think there's any limit. If anything, the older and more damaged films benefit MORE from Blu Ray. They look more like you're watching an actual print, dirt, damage and all. Newer ones are pristine and will still look decent on DVD.
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post #4 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 10:09 AM
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No film is too old, my blu-ray of SUNRISE (1929) can attest to that.
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post #5 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 10:37 AM
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Depends on the film: there are a couple that I suspect don't exist in any form that contains more resolution than you'll get on SD. This is more down to original filming techniques and storage rather than age though.

Unfortunately two of them are favourites of mine:

"Treasure of the Seirra Madre" and "Seven Samurai" don't have much more to offer beyond what you find on the latest dvd releases: You'll get benefits from the lack of interlacing, newer codecs and bit rates that BD offers but I doubt there is much more than SD left on any of the remaining film elements. I'd love to be proven wrong on this though.

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post #6 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 11:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

Depends on the film: there are a couple that I suspect don't exist in any form that contains more resolution than you'll get on SD. This is more down to original filming techniques and storage rather than age though.

Unfortunately two of them are favourites of mine:

"Treasure of the Seirra Madre" and "Seven Samurai" don't have much more to offer beyond what you find on the latest dvd releases: You'll get benefits from the lack of interlacing, newer codecs and bit rates that BD offers but I doubt there is much more than SD left on any of the remaining film elements. I'd love to be proven wrong on this though.

Lost film

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A lost film is a feature film or short film that is no longer known to exist in studio archives, private collections or the archive of, for instance, the Library of Congress where all American films are deposited for copyright reasons. The phrase "lost film" is also used in a literal sense for instances where footage of deleted scenes, unedited and alternate versions of feature films are known to have been created but can no longer be accounted for.

Sometimes a copy of a "lost" film is rediscovered; these have been referred to as "Lazarus" films. A film that has not been recovered in its entirety is called a "partially lost film".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_film

See link for titles listed and such.
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post #7 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

"Treasure of the Seirra Madre" and "Seven Samurai" don't have much more to offer beyond what you find on the latest dvd releases: You'll get benefits from the lack of interlacing, newer codecs and bit rates that BD offers but I doubt there is much more than SD left on any of the remaining film elements. I'd love to be proven wrong on this though.

What elements are there for those movies? Dr. Strangelove and Becket are two examples of films where there is no surviving negative.

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Lost film



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_film

See link for titles listed and such.

Irrelevant.

By that definition, neither Treasure of the Sierra Madre nor Seven Samurai are "lost films."

Not to mention that it is inherently impossible to have a BD of a "lost film." Because it is lost altogether, let alone in hidef.

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post #8 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 11:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

What elements are there for those movies? Dr. Strangelove and Becket are two examples of films where there is no surviving negative.

Does the Interpositive exist for those two films? If so they can work from that as long as it is not too far gone.

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Irrelevant.

By that definition, neither Treasure of the Sierra Madre nor Seven Samurai are "lost films."

Not to mention that it is inherently impossible to have a BD of a "lost film." Because it is lost altogether, let alone in hidef.

Relevant to those that want to see some trivia, especially the list of incomplete films like HELP! and 2001.
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post #9 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Does the Interpositive exist for those two films? If so they can work from that as long as it is not too far gone.

Nope.

Strangelove was pieced together using a fine-grain master positive, a duplicate negative and a print; each element "a different number of generations away from the original negative, resulting in wide variations in density and contrast."

Becket was restored using YCM separation protection masters, from which a new interpositive was created.

What do you think about those two Blu-rays? Oh, sorry...

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post #10 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Nope.

Strangelove was pieced together using a fine-grain master positive, a duplicate negative and a print; each element "a different number of generations away from the original negative, resulting in wide variations in density and contrast."

Becket was restored using YCM separation protection masters, from which a new interpositive was created.

Interesting - thanks.

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What do you think about those two Blu-rays? Oh, sorry...

Oh gee . . . a cheap shot/one line zinger.
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post #11 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Ramzyk View Post

No film is too old, my blu-ray of SUNRISE (1929) can attest to that.

Once you get into the silent era, you're talking about 16mm copies of prints that were often near death excluding some prints that were meticulously cared for (like everything D.W. Griffith ever released). For example I'd be surprised if there is a print of Metropolis (from the same year as Sunrise) that would look much better in HD.

But I like surprises!

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post #12 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 02:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

What do you think about those two Blu-rays? Oh, sorry...

heh...
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post #13 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 03:51 PM
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Slightly OT and not moving pictures; Interesting story on some of the first color technologies for film. No after colorization. Remarkable quality.

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The Incredible Century-old Color Photography of Prokudin-gorsky
In 1909 a remarkable project was initiated by Russian photographer Sergey Mikhaylovich Prokudin-Gorsky. His mission was to record – in full and vibrant color – the vast and diverse Russian Empire. Here, with his story, is a selection of his amazing century old full color pictures.





part1.
http://quazen.com/arts/photography/t...okudin-gorsky/

part2.
http://quazen.com/arts/photography/t...gorsky-part-2/
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post #14 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

What elements are there for those movies? .

Well let me take a look in my own private film vault... nope sorry can't find those two.



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Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Irrelevant.

By that definition, neither Treasure of the Sierra Madre nor Seven Samurai are "lost films."

Not to mention that it is inherently impossible to have a BD of a "lost film." Because it is lost altogether, let alone in hidef.

That wasn't his point. What's yours exactly?

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post #15 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Nope.

Strangelove was pieced together using a fine-grain master positive, a duplicate negative and a print; each element "a different number of generations away from the original negative, resulting in wide variations in density and contrast."

A "fine grain master positive" is an interpositive. Interpositives are usually fine grain stocks.

The duplicate negative would in fact be an internegative and as such one generation down on the IP. These would have the same contrast .

The print would be higher con but I don't think the contrast paradigm with B/W is quite as extreme as it would be with colour.

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post #16 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Becket was restored using YCM separation protection masters, from which a new interpositive was created.

This is a common approach to preserve color film. B&W fine grain film is very stable. I suppose the process will eventually be replaced by DI. Preservation to YCMs is quite labor intensive as each record needs to be QC'd, then a test IP is created to be sure it actually worked.
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post #17 of 41 Old 10-08-2009, 10:30 PM
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I surely hope Hollywood won't abandon YCM preservation masters for the time being.

I don't trust ANY current file format, Cineon, DPX, DNG, TIFF, etc, to be perfectly readable a few years in the future, as digital technology is in a constant flux.

Also, DIs finalized in 2K don't have nearly resolution enough to be long archival masters, and that's the bulk of all intermediates being done today.

Suppose in the future you need to strike a IMAX or 70mm print from a 2K DI, or even if you wanted to make a 4K DCI master? It'd look terrible.
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post #18 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

Well let me take a look in my own private film vault... nope sorry can't find those two.

You're the one that brought them up and claimed that they "don't have much more to offer beyond what you find on the latest dvd releases." Why'd you say that?

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post #19 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfuhlendorf View Post

I surely hope Hollywood won't abandon YCM preservation masters for the time being.

I don't trust ANY current file format, Cineon, DPX, DNG, TIFF, etc, to be perfectly readable a few years in the future, as digital technology is in a constant flux.

Also, DIs finalized in 2K don't have nearly resolution enough to be long archival masters, and that's the bulk of all intermediates being done today.

Suppose in the future you need to strike a IMAX or 70mm print from a 2K DI, or even if you wanted to make a 4K DCI master? It'd look terrible.

Not to mention all the features shot on 2K digital tape based cameras (no RAW) when they want to release them on future HT media & TV standards in 4K or 8K. From 2megapixel capture to 10megapixel media, that's a lot of information that needs to be added to the original.

Possibility great regrets in the future when a decade or more of a large number of features just can't be up-converted to look satisfactory.
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post #20 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

You're the one that brought them up and claimed that they "don't have much more to offer beyond what you find on the latest dvd releases." Why'd you say that?

I'm quite clear in my post.

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post #21 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 05:02 AM
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From the captures of Sierra Madre on DVDBeaver I'd say a decent HD version would look pretty good. At least as good as Casablanca.
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post #22 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfuhlendorf View Post

I surely hope Hollywood won't abandon YCM preservation masters for the time being.

I don't trust ANY current file format, Cineon, DPX, DNG, TIFF, etc, to be perfectly readable a few years in the future, as digital technology is in a constant flux.

I'd say the cineon and dpx formats are standardised and recognized globally to the extent that its unlikely that they would ever be in danger of being unreadable in themselves.

I would say there is a certain level of risk in the data itself becoming corrupted but in all honesty if a few years down the line we had trouble with DPX files its likely because we were all reduced to living in caves and image data formats would be the least of our concerns.

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post #23 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

From the captures of Sierra Madre on DVDBeaver I'd say a decent HD version would look pretty good. At least as good as Casablanca.


An even better example is Wages of Fear, which is closer to TTotSM in production year, theme and geographical setting.

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post #24 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

From the captures of Sierra Madre on DVDBeaver I'd say a decent HD version would look pretty good. At least as good as Casablanca.

There is some second hand info regarding Treasure that suggests Bob Harris thinks the negative is in pretty good condition. Whether this is true and whether it still means that even in good condition the negative ever contained significantly greater resolution than SD remains to be seen.

But as I said I'd like to be surprised.

Casablanca was mainly studio shot. Treasure was studio and a large part location : the differences in image from scene to scene are quite obvious even on SD.

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post #25 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

Casablanca was mainly studio shot. Treasure was studio and a large part location : the differences in image from scene to scene are quite obvious even on SD.

Wages of Fear (again)
The Searchers
The Third Man

Shot on location.

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post #26 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Wages of Fear (again)
The Searchers
The Third Man

Shot on location.

Yeah see the thing is Grubert I'm not really interested into entering into some sort of meaningless tit for tat argument with you. This thread is not about that and no-one else on here apart from your good self has tried to pull it into that direction.

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post #27 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.D View Post

Yeah see the thing is Grubert I'm not really interested into entering into some sort of meaningless tit for tat argument with you. This thread is not about that and no-one else on here apart from your good self has tried to pull it into that direction.

No, I'm serious. I honestly want to know, why do you think that The Treasure of the Sierra Madre will not benefit from HD?

If it isn't because of the year, the cinematography, or the studio, why is it?

Especially if you say there is a usable negative.

Why?

You can't just come out and lob a comment like that and then refuse to explain.

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post #28 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 10:23 AM
 
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Back to the subject at hand . . .

When is a movie too OLD for Blu-Ray?

The answer would be based on the ROI from the studios standpoint. So this becomes a subjective question. Some old movies have a very high appeal while others have almost none.

The studio has to gauge interest in a movie before it committs it's resources and money to bring that title to BD. And of course, the issue of restoration and film elements condition plays a big part in that. I am sure WB spent a bunch of money on the Wizard of Oz because they knew this has a large audience. The same with Casablanca. i am sure we could all list the films that would be added to that list - the classics that people have bought before and will buy again.

So IMO - the age of the movie has nothing to do with BD. It will be the size of the potential market that will buy the movie on BD - that is all that counts.
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post #29 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Slightly OT and not moving pictures; Interesting story on some of the first color technologies for film. No after colorization. Remarkable quality.


part1.
http://quazen.com/arts/photography/t...okudin-gorsky/

part2.
http://quazen.com/arts/photography/t...gorsky-part-2/

Quite remarkable--thanks for sharing that, coolscan.
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post #30 of 41 Old 10-09-2009, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post


You can't just come out and lob a comment like that and then refuse to explain.

Photography ,filmstock, storage. I suspect that even of the neg for treasure aand certainly seven samurai was pristine it would possibly not contain any more resolvable detail than SD.

This is not the case for every film of these sort of ages or even older. The reasons for this vary from film to film depending on a lot of less than obvious factors. For example developments in one are of film technology (latitude) often have a compromising effect on oher aspects (resolution) and it can take a bit of time before one improvement is optimised enough to not impact other areas.

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