4K theaters and Blu-ray? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 11-02-2009, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have a few questions about the 4K theaters and blu-ray. I see that a lot of people are really impressed by the 4K theaters/projectors. Obviously 4K is more that 1080p resolution wise but also a bigger screen so is it really better quality than blu-ray? How is the film/movie presented...hard drive, film, or what? If it is a hard drive then how big and what is the bit rate and is the audio on it DDTHD or DTSMA?
And lastly recently I saw that the Wizard of Oz was playing ay my local theater and the ads kept repeating that it was blu-ray. Now I have a 106" screen but if it was a real blu-ray then on their HUGE screen would have been that good?
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post #2 of 17 Old 11-02-2009, 12:32 PM
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this may be partially or entirely incorrect:
the movie is encrypted on a hard drive, the video is compressed via wavelet JPEG2000 at fairly low compression ratios (no idea about exact bitrates, chroma subsampling and all that good stuff), and the audio is PCM.
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post #3 of 17 Old 11-02-2009, 01:10 PM
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It's my understanding that the Sony D-Cinema projectors are not actually 4k but dual 2k displays stacked.

they can also do 1080P in all 4 corners of the screen separates so you can watch live events at different angles simultaneously.
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post #4 of 17 Old 11-02-2009, 03:37 PM
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I'm not too sure about file size for 4K, but for 2K, it's generally about 1.5gb per minute.

The thing about the 4K projectors is that movies that are mastered in 4K are few and far between at this point. Of course, as they become more popular, so will 4K masters. But at this point, the majority of the movies that are being shown on these 4K projectors are only 2K.

The Wizard of Oz was a little shady, because a lot of the theaters were using the video projectors that are used for the ads before movies. Most of them are probably not much better than yours.

But in general, a BD on a 4K projector should look pretty damn good. I've seen a number of BD's on 2K digital projectors, and was highly impressed. I would say it's comparable to what BD looks like at home, only way bigger.
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post #5 of 17 Old 11-02-2009, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbles3k View Post

The Wizard of Oz was a little shady, because a lot of the theaters were using the video projectors that are used for the ads before movies. Most of them are probably not much better than yours.

I can't comment about the projectors used in the US, however most of the digital projectors used for pre-show in Australia are actually 3 chip DLP 720 projectors and they are not even 16:9, rather 4 x 3 and they zoom to achieve a 16:9 image with black bars shot off the top and bottom of the screen. The local complex I go to only use them for pre-show. Out of their 12 screens, only 2 have true 2K (2048 x 1080) projectors for main features which they use for their 3D screening. Other than that, it is 35mm film.

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post #7 of 17 Old 11-03-2009, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

So I have a few questions about the 4K theaters and blu-ray. I see that a lot of people are really impressed by the 4K theaters/projectors. Obviously 4K is more that 1080p resolution wise but also a bigger screen so is it really better quality than blu-ray? How is the film/movie presented...hard drive, film, or what? If it is a hard drive then how big and what is the bit rate and is the audio on it DDTHD or DTSMA?
And lastly recently I saw that the Wizard of Oz was playing ay my local theater and the ads kept repeating that it was blu-ray. Now I have a 106" screen but if it was a real blu-ray then on their HUGE screen would have been that good?

The Blu-ray was of course upconverted from 2K to 4K.

Just remember that 2K+2K is not 4K when it comes to movie systems.
Blu-ray is a 2 megapixel (2 million pixel) system while 4K is a 8-10 megapixel system (8-10 million pixel).
Huge difference in resolution/image information.
People often seems to forget that.

So all movies that are shot digitally on 2K cameras or film scanned at 2K scanners need a 4x-5x upconversion to "match" 4K.
Movies that are shot or scanned at 4K or higher will look much better than the 2K movies on a 4K projector.

When more 4K projectors (and DLP 4K) comes into use, some film makers that in the past have shot their features on 2K digital cameras will have a "rude awakening", I believe.
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post #8 of 17 Old 11-03-2009, 10:57 AM
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So all movies that are shot digitally on 2K cameras or film scanned at 2K scanners need a 4x-5x upconversion to "match" 4K.
Movies that are shot or scanned at 4K or higher will look much better than the 2K movies on a 4K projector.

When more 4K projectors (and DLP 4K) comes into use, some film makers that in the past have shot their features on 2K digital cameras will have a "rude awakening", I believe.

I've seen test footage of 35mm film scanned from the negative at both 2K and 4K and projected onto a large (50 foot) screen and there really wasn't much of a difference. Wide shots seemed a bit sharper, but I'm not entirely convinced that it wasn't a placebo effect at work, as I was expecting the 4K footage to look better.

There may well be a more noticeable difference once 4K digital aquisition becomes more commonplace, but for now 4K seems like overkill, even for theatrical presentations.

Don't tug on that, you never know what it might be attached to...
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post #9 of 17 Old 11-03-2009, 11:20 AM
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Intresting. 4K don't seem likely to replace BD for quite a while then.

I think Robert Harris said in the Godfather featurette that a 35mm frame had like 4-5 megapixels. So that is twice the BD resolution but only half 4K then?
Wasn't Wizard of Oz scanned in 8K, is there really anything to win in that?
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post #10 of 17 Old 11-03-2009, 02:56 PM
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Quote:


I've seen test footage of 35mm film scanned from the negative at both 2K and 4K and projected onto a large (50 foot) screen and there really wasn't much of a difference. Wide shots seemed a bit sharper, but I'm not entirely convinced that it wasn't a placebo effect at work, as I was expecting the 4K footage to look better.

I would agree with that. I haven't seen any side by side comparisons, but I have seen two movies (HANCOCK and QUANTUM OF SOLACE) projected in 4K from 4K masters. I honestly have to say that I did not notice a substantial improvement over the 2K movies I've seen in that same theater/projector.

I am anxious to see what a movie which was shot on video at 4K resolution would look like projected at 4K. I wouldn't be surprised if the difference was more noticeable under those conditions.
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post #11 of 17 Old 11-03-2009, 06:50 PM
 
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2K versus 4K:

Digital Cinema's Special K

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In the standardization discussions for digital cinema distribution, there is an ongoing debate over how much resolution is required for preparation, delivery, and display of theatrical images. How much resolution is necessary to deliver higher quality than film distribution currently offers? What is possible, what is practical, what is necessary, and what is affordable? Is 4K resolution required at all stages, from capture to display, to preserve adequate image quality?

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/ma...nemas_special/
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post #12 of 17 Old 11-04-2009, 03:25 AM
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I frankly hate this pre-occupation people seem to have with resolution.
No-one is pointing out that the super duper 4k capture systems still don't match film for latitude and color.

2k vs 4k ...subtle difference but people bang on about it because its simple math : 4k must be better than 2k because its a bigger number. 4k is great...for test patterns.

On real imagery the difference is probably more subtle than comparing 720p to 1080p.

Point out things like latitude and color which make a massive visual difference to the imagery and people start running out of rope.

And STOP calling BD "2k". Its 1080p video . It is certainly not 2k DCi.

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post #13 of 17 Old 11-04-2009, 09:29 AM
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You can scan a movie in 64k if you want but it doesn't mean s___ if you have 8x8 macro blocks showing up in the image or you have 6 pixels of EE around parts of your picture or the filters are throwing out filmed elements. Until we actually get 1920x1080 worth of image in our 1920x1080 frame there is no point in increasing the resolution, other wise you just replace your 8x8 macro blocks with 64x64 macroblocks. Looking at the post above it looks like the 4k spec realises that and it is possible that the better picture has as much to do with improved compression/bandwidth as it does increased resolution.
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post #14 of 17 Old 11-07-2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexdigital View Post

It's my understanding that the Sony D-Cinema projectors are not actually 4k but dual 2k displays stacked.

they can also do 1080P in all 4 corners of the screen separates so you can watch live events at different angles simultaneously.

Sony SXRD 4K theater projectors actually have a 4k panel; they're not 2 2K projectors stacked.
However, each of the four 2K 'corners' of the 4K image is controlled independently by a different board, so you can think of the electronics of these projectors as FOUR 2k pipelines.
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post #15 of 17 Old 11-29-2009, 06:57 AM
 
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is there anywhere that lists the projectors that any given cinema is using ?
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post #16 of 17 Old 11-29-2009, 07:06 AM
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No idea but I have seen 4K JVC projectors last year in CEATEC, Japan.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #17 of 17 Old 11-29-2009, 10:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

is there anywhere that lists the projectors that any given cinema is using ?

Not that I am aware of. What you have to do is use Google - for example:

Sony 4K projectors+news . . . . will get you to deals that Sony has cut with theater chains like Regal and Muvico. Then you have to go to specific theater location websites to see if the PJ is being advertised.

You can also make use of this website:

http://www.dcinematoday.com/default.aspx

You have to play detective.
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