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post #1 of 41 Old 09-02-2010, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Am I the only one who is fed up with the gluttony of "Streaming HD" devices being pushed upon us? Apple TV, Netflix, Roku, Tivo...

We all purchased high quality 1080p sets because we value picture quality. I am sorry, but all streaming HD I have seen on my computer (25 Mbps broadband) still comes nowhere near Blu-Ray in quality.

As far as I am concerned, Blu-Ray still trumps anything the internet can provide. And 3 movie rental stores in my neighborgood have all closed up (including blockbuster chain, which is filing for bankrupcy any day now).

The age of renting Blu Ray seems soon to be over.

Any thoughts?
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post #2 of 41 Old 09-02-2010, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post

Am I the only one who is fed up with the gluttony of "Streaming HD" devices being pushed upon us? Apple TV, Netflix, Roku, Tivo...

We all purchased high quality 1080p sets because we value picture quality. I am sorry, but all streaming HD I have seen on my computer (25 Mbps broadband) still comes nowhere near Blu-Ray in quality.

As far as I am concerned, Blu-Ray still trumps anything the internet can provide. And 3 movie rental stores in my neighborgood have all closed up (including blockbuster chain, which is filing for bankrupcy any day now).

The age of renting Blu Ray seems soon to be over.

Any thoughts?

Just because your broadband is 25mbit doesnt equals that the stream is anywere near that. I think most HD streams are under 10mbit. But thats not the the only problem. One big problem is that they use automatic encodings. While a BD uses hand tweaked encodes in most cases. If download services provided handweaked encodes the quality would increase. It wouldnt be as good as BD, but it would be alot better.

I want my grain region free.
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post #3 of 41 Old 09-03-2010, 04:59 AM
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I believe that BD will be he best quality arround for some time to come.

So by that, streaming isn't the best quality. And as such if you want the best quality, then renting that BD is going to be it.

And just to be a pain, this is a software forum, not a streaming one.

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post #4 of 41 Old 09-03-2010, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by blake View Post

We all purchased high quality 1080p sets because we value picture quality. I am sorry, but all streaming HD I have seen on my computer (25 Mbps broadband) still comes nowhere near Blu-Ray in quality.

I personally bought my TV to view the highest quality available from the source, whether it's Blu-Ray, DVD, streaming, Comcast, DirecTV, FiOs, or other. While nothing really matches Blu-Ray, I have not given up watching DVDs or cancelled my television service provider.

Also, Vudu HDX and Zune 1080p are "near" Blu-Ray (not quite there, but getting close). I love streaming and do so from multiple sources (VOD, Amazon VOD, Netflix, Zune HD, Hulu, etc). Wave of the future, and I am very very happy with it. I do not need to see every movie in full 1080p. I still rent Blu-Rays from Netflix, but the only way I'll forego a streaming option is if the movie is special effects, action or surround sound-heavy (this is pretty much all action, sci-fi, and some horror movies). I don't really care if a documentary, dialog/character-driven film, stand-up comedian, or comedy is in 1080p.

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Originally Posted by blake View Post

And 3 movie rental stores in my neighborgood have all closed up (including blockbuster chain, which is filing for bankrupcy any day now).

The age of renting Blu Ray seems soon to be over.

What is a movie rental store? Oh wait, is that that archaic thing where you have to actually go to some brick and mortar place to get a movie? I remember those days.
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post #5 of 41 Old 09-03-2010, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post

We all purchased high quality 1080p sets because we value picture quality.

No, you can't make blanket statements like that. Alot of 1080p sets got sold because people liked how they'd look in their living rooms!

There are all kinds of people in the world, and we need many (tho certainly not most!) of them (especially people who "buy high and sell low" ). Some are gonna watch their youtubes and stream their movies and think they look great, just like they butcher their music and listen on cheap portable players.

Be thankful there is Blu-ray, and who knows maybe there'll be an even better format come-along in a few years. Gotta come-up w/new stuff all the time you know, to get people to open their wallets.
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post #6 of 41 Old 09-03-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post

The age of renting Blu Ray seems soon to be over.

IMO, if Blockbuster goes under the Blockbuster digital, kiosk and disc by mail will continue. Redbox has added Blu-ray and there is always Netflix. Why go to a store front when Blockbuster and/or Netflix will deliver Blu-ray disc to your door?
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post #7 of 41 Old 09-04-2010, 08:53 PM
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I highly anticipated the hi-def disc formats because DVDs, sold by movie studios themselves, were the best quality available. Laser Discs, in their day, were also the best format available. Blu-ray is indeed the best quality format available to consumers today.

As in the days of Laser Discs and ever since, all other mass-market delivery methods (over-the-air, cable, satellite, fiber) are inferior. I see no reason to expect video streaming or downloads to be any different.

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post #8 of 41 Old 09-06-2010, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

IMO, if Blockbuster goes under the Blockbuster digital, kiosk and disc by mail will continue. Redbox has added Blu-ray and there is always Netflix. Why go to a store front when Blockbuster and/or Netflix will deliver Blu-ray disc to your door?

Why go to a store front?
Because if you don't time your online queue appropriately, you won't get a popular new release for weeks or months. If I walk in to a store front blockbuster/redbox early, I get a popular new release on release week.

Also, let's not forget the 30 day delay of some new releases from non-store front providers & issues with mailing disks which result in cracked disks.

Btw:
Blockbuster now has the 1@ a time Total Access subscription which includes free in store exchanges.

2014
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post #9 of 41 Old 09-09-2010, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post

Am I the only one who is fed up with the gluttony of "Streaming HD" devices being pushed upon us? Apple TV, Netflix, Roku, Tivo...

We all purchased high quality 1080p sets because we value picture quality. I am sorry, but all streaming HD I have seen on my computer (25 Mbps broadband) still comes nowhere near Blu-Ray in quality.

As far as I am concerned, Blu-Ray still trumps anything the internet can provide. And 3 movie rental stores in my neighborgood have all closed up (including blockbuster chain, which is filing for bankrupcy any day now).

The age of renting Blu Ray seems soon to be over.

Any thoughts?

Thoughts? My thoughts are, what is this guy complaining about!

You walk before you can run, and you are limited by infrastructure, adoption, and technology. All three are press towards streaming the highest quality video to your home. We're farther along than we were were a year ago. Are we there yet? No. Does that mean we're not making progress? Hell no.

Am I "fed up" with streaming video? Hell no. Am I fed up with stupid bricks and mortar stores, and stuff I want being rented out, and generally polluting hte planet by DRIVING to this stupid store to pick up a plastic disk that my system should be able to download in a few minutes? Yes!

Don't be a luddite. Just because the technology does not deliver exactly what you want right now does not mean you should tilt at windmills and decry the "tyranny of streaming." Lord give me a break.
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post #10 of 41 Old 09-13-2010, 03:24 PM
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I just got a Panny 50VT20, and watched my first movie from Amazon VOD. It was incredible. Not a single burp, and from my sofa (about 7 feet from the TV) I could not tell the difference between VOD and blu-ray. I'm not a video engineer, but I am a retired TV producer, and I've worked with HD video on incredibly expensive studio monitors. I wasn't expecting what I got from VOD streaming, I presumed it would not be up to blu-ray standards (I have a considerable collection of those). Now, I must say that the movie I watched wasn't an action flick (it was the Last Song), which means it was relatively easy to compress. I'll try an action flick soon.
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post #11 of 41 Old 09-14-2010, 01:35 PM
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Streaming has its place in the market. You want to watch something and not have to worry about running up to the local rental joint or waiting on it to come in the mail from Netflix? Fire up one of your devices and stream it from Xbox Live, Playstation Marketplace, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, or any one of the other sources for streaming.
You missed an episode of your favorite show? Wait a few days and stream it from one of online sources to your device.

People aren't buying 1080p HDTVs because they are interested in high quality, they buy it because they want a bigger TV and 1080p units make up the vast majority of what is produced right now. Broadcast TV is what will mot often be watched on those TVs and on top of that most of your sports programming is 720p and not 1080i.

You need to face the fact that those of us interested in PQ and AQ are a small minority of consumers.

Format Neutral
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post #12 of 41 Old 09-29-2010, 08:35 AM
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You're not being forced to buy ANY of those streaming box and most of those features are now free built into TV's and BD players.

FWIW, Vudu is the only thing that has truly impressed me, as far as streaming content goes. Netflix and Amazon VOD are both just OK. About HD cable quality. Vudu looks awesome if you can get the 1080p stream.
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post #13 of 41 Old 09-29-2010, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Blacklac View Post

You're not being forced to buy ANY of those streaming box and most of those features are now free built into TV's and BD players.

FWIW, Vudu is the only thing that has truly impressed me, as far as streaming content goes. Netflix and Amazon VOD are both just OK. About HD cable quality. Vudu looks awesome if you can get the 1080p stream.

I completely agree with your observations about VUDU. I only wish it were as ubiquitous as Netflix.
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post #14 of 41 Old 10-04-2010, 04:03 AM
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While definately not 1080p quality it can still easily surpass DVD quality. I just finished watching a series in HD on Netflix and the quality was pretty good. I'm pretty sure it was closer to 720p 4-5Mbit but when all you want to do is watch something that would suffice. In fact I'd rather have better quality 720p than trying to squeeze 1080p in the same bitrate. Also PQ will get much better pretty quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if they offered 1080p 20Mbit streaming within 5 years.
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post #15 of 41 Old 10-04-2010, 07:56 AM
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As evidenced by many of the responses above, the problem is that most consumer displays aren't large enough to really show the difference, regardless of resolution or display technology. 1080p is practically overkill outside of the front projection market; the returns of such a minimally compressed, high resolution format diminish rapidly the smaller you go. With relatively few consumers watching anything larger than 60" it's no wonder they don't see that, though. Having seen BD projected onto cinema sized screens, and even projected side by side with the studio master, trust me, even 100" front projection just begins to tell the 1080p tale.

In my own home, I've got 1080p front projection in a dedicated light controlled and acoustically treated HT or review studio rather, which I sit roughly 1x screen width away from the 92" screen, approximating the middle row of most commercial cinemas, and a 52" 1080p flat panel in our living room where seating distance ranges from 1.4x to 6x screen width, depending on where you sit. On the later, dvd almost appears high def and 1080p and 720p are virtually indistinguishable; on similarly sized consumer displays any difference between 720p and 1080p lies solely in the equipments processing, usually in favor of the display's native resolution, if there is any difference at all. Though some people seem to have a vendetta against packaged media or its price and see what they want to see, it's no wonder many can't tell the difference between good and bad HD. If I was still satisfied with watching TV as I was in my 20's, as opposed to the much fuller home cinema experience I've since become accustomed to, I might stick with dvd more myself, at least as long as there is a price premium for HD.

It's too early to tell if downloads will ever approach BD quality, but I'm not remotely optimistic. They certainly haven't come close yet and if DirecTV and cable are any indication, they won't for a long, long time, as broadcasters know that more content is a bigger selling point than higher quality. With most people sitting 2x screen width or farther away they probably won't even notice compression ratios that are so high they make standard dvd look like a virtually uncompressed format.

Of course the sonic difference is just as broad, but there's no immediate need to stream lossless audio when the majority viewer is downconverting the sound to stereo or simulated surround over their TV speakers.

If extras continue to gravitate toward online access instead of being stored on the disc, that'll be another selling point lost for packaged media. But the long term reliability will forever be in favor of physical media. And with all the compatibility issues, I personally find taking a disc from room to room or even place to place much easier than toting my laptop, making discs still more conveniently portable, unless you're content with watching your movies on the go on a 2" screen.

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post #16 of 41 Old 10-07-2010, 07:05 PM
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Another thing, I don't think the intent of Streaming is to kill Bluray, but actually to compete against cable. That is my thought atleast.
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post #17 of 41 Old 10-08-2010, 07:47 AM
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Am I the only one who is fed up with the gluttony of "Streaming HD" devices being pushed upon us? Apple TV, Netflix, Roku, Tivo...

No you are not. I'm sick of these fifth-rate services that are HD in frame size, but certainly not in spirit.

"But it's 1080p!"

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Reviewer & Tech Consultant, HDTVtest.co.uk
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post #18 of 41 Old 10-08-2010, 08:10 AM
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I love my Roku box, beats the hell out of cable - faster to find what you want, no commercials, etc, though the video quality isn't as good as Blu-ray.

I rent the important movies on Blu-Ray but watch some of the 2nd tier movies on 720p Roku Netflix, and have found some hidden treasures i never would have rented. Netflix streaming is awesome, you have access to hundreds or thousands of movies and documentaries instantly, for one set cost of around 10 bucks a month.
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post #19 of 41 Old 10-08-2010, 08:11 AM
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And Roku has a new box that does 1080p, sure its not blu-ray, but the presentation is good if you have fast internet.
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post #20 of 41 Old 10-09-2010, 06:52 AM
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$9 a month for unlimited rentals sounds almost too good to be true. If I had a 60 inch or smaller TV I'd probably go that route too, at least for movies and TV shows of lesser priority. Though, I'm not sure how well a 3mbps variable DSL speed is for downloads here. I'm 2 miles from a large town, 10 miles from a small city and within 40 miles of 3 large cities, but my house is still rural enough that 3mbs is it, and we just recently got that.

Edit: After further research and finding tons of complaints about loading glitches and pauses mid movie, many from people with 20mbs and higher speeds that probably make mine seem like dial-up, reports of 720p feeds that look worse than 480i DVD, indication that quality 1080p streaming is years away (at least), and talk of bandwidth caps by IPs and such, I guess $9 per month is still too good to be true.

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post #21 of 41 Old 10-11-2010, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Varnadore View Post

$9 a month for unlimited rentals sounds almost too good to be true. If I had a 60 inch or smaller TV I'd probably go that route too, at least for movies and TV shows of lesser priority. Though, I'm not sure how well a 3mbps variable DSL speed is for downloads here. I'm 2 miles from a large town, 10 miles from a small city and within 40 miles of 3 large cities, but my house is still rural enough that 3mbs is it, and we just recently got that.

Edit: After further research and finding tons of complaints about loading glitches and pauses mid movie, many from people with 20mbs and higher speeds that probably make mine seem like dial-up, reports of 720p feeds that look worse than 480i DVD, indication that quality 1080p streaming is years away (at least), and talk of bandwidth caps by IPs and such, I guess $9 per month is still too good to be true.

Chad, the only thing that comes close to Blu-ray is Vudu's HDX downloads, but you have to have 5mbs download to use it. On my projector, it doesn't have the depth of Blu-ray, but it isn't plagued with compression like I see from Netflix or the cable co's VOD offerings. The HDX stream also offers Dolby Digital Plus audio, which is a nice upgrade over Netflix's stereo feed. Would I trade Vudu for BD? Not on your life, but in a pinch it isn't half bad. Furthermore, on our 50" plasma, I would hate to have to do a double-blind test and pick out the difference between the two sitting 1.5 screen widths away.

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post #22 of 41 Old 10-12-2010, 06:06 AM
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Thanks Dave. The way studios are stalling BD adoption by coming up with more ways to justify higher premiums instead of reducing the cost of the software to better reflect a four year old format with hardware costs now in the $50 range, how broadcast is still favoring content over quality, I sometimes think I'd be better off selling my FP and going back to something a lot smaller, like a 60" 3DTV. That size doesn't hold a candle to front projection when it comes to the movie experience with BD or the rendition of 1080p's level of detail, but it's so much more forgiving of the lower quality sources that still proliferate the market, and I'm beginning to fear that may not change for at least another decade. DirecTV is so overcompressed, I can only stand to watch it on our 50" set in the living room from 2x screenwidth or more away, and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. I don't know how they can even call anything on youtube HD, especially the the stuff that's home shot on "HD" handhelds that barely even compares to DVD in resolution.

My 3mbs speed usually runs at 2.5 or less, though my IP tells me I've got faster speeds than most of the customers they service, I believe because I'm sharing the lines with fewer people than those who live closer to Salisbury. My IP offers a 12mbs service, but I can't get it, nor could I justify the premium for my usage. I've even been thinking about going back to 1.5mbs and saving about $45 per month through Time Warner, but I fear there's another Uncharted just around the corner or some other game that'll make me regret scaling back.

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post #23 of 41 Old 10-12-2010, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post

Am I the only one who is fed up with the gluttony of "Streaming HD" devices being pushed upon us? Apple TV, Netflix, Roku, Tivo...

We all purchased high quality 1080p sets because we value picture quality. I am sorry, but all streaming HD I have seen on my computer (25 Mbps broadband) still comes nowhere near Blu-Ray in quality.

As far as I am concerned, Blu-Ray still trumps anything the internet can provide. And 3 movie rental stores in my neighborgood have all closed up (including blockbuster chain, which is filing for bankrupcy any day now).

The age of renting Blu Ray seems soon to be over.

Any thoughts?

People here are in a very small minority. For years we have said, most people are happy with DVD quality and streaming movies will take over most of disc-based movie's marketshare because of the cheaper costs and faster delivery.

Nobody is pushing anything on you. It's all supply and demand.
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post #24 of 41 Old 10-12-2010, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

People here are in a very small minority. For years we have said, most people are happy with DVD quality and streaming movies will take over most of disc-based movie's marketshare because of the cheaper costs and faster delivery.

Nobody is pushing anything on you. It's all supply and demand.

Very small minority? Hardly. The fact is internet boards like this are still a gross misrepresentation of the US consumer, who, even those with internet access in their homes, and despite much better pricing online, still choose to do their shopping in retail stores. Wal-mart, BB, and Target each sell more discs than Amazon, all combined, the internet accounts for a retail minority. And despite Netflix's much more lucrative business model, Blockbuster still serviced over 6x as many customers, the last time I checked, and most people I knew had already switched over to Redbox even then.

Outside of people I know through the internet, I can't think of a single person who has the vaguest knowledge of or interest in streaming, but most probably don't even have as fast a connection as I do, which apparently isn't too adequate itself. Yet, everybody I know under 60 years old says they'd like BD, but the disc prices are still too high. And those who already have BD would buy more if not for that same price premium, which is even higher in brick and mortar stores than it is on the net for all but the biggest blockbuster titles, and there the prices are usually closer just for the first week.

I rarely buy anything other than clothes and food in brick and mortar stores anymore, as the prices just aren't that competitive with online vendors and the selection isn't nearly as large as amazon alone. Even online storefronts of major retailers like wal-mart are usually way too pricy for my buying habits. But, don't be disillusioned into thinking that any online forum represents anything more than an online majority. From what I've seen the majority of people in this country don't even know what streaming is yet.

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post #25 of 41 Old 10-12-2010, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Chad Varnadore View Post

Very small minority? Hardly. The fact is internet boards like this are still a gross misrepresentation of the US consumer, who, even those with internet access in their homes, and despite much better pricing online, still choose to do their shopping in retail stores. Wal-mart, BB, and Target each sell more discs than Amazon, all combined, the internet accounts for a retail minority. And despite Netflix's much more lucrative business model, Blockbuster still serviced over 6x as many customers, the last time I checked, and most people I knew had already switched over to Redbox even then.

Outside of people I know through the internet, I can't think of a single person who has the vaguest knowledge of or interest in streaming, but most probably don't even have as fast a connection as I do, which apparently isn't too adequate itself. Yet, everybody I know under 60 years old says they'd like BD, but the disc prices are still too high. And those who already have BD would buy more if not for that same price premium, which is even higher in brick and mortar stores than it is on the net for all but the biggest blockbuster titles, and there the prices are usually closer just for the first week.

I rarely buy anything other than clothes and food in brick and mortar stores anymore, as the prices just aren't that competitive with online vendors and the selection isn't nearly as large as amazon alone. Even online storefronts of major retailers like wal-mart are usually way too pricy for my buying habits. But, don't be disillusioned into thinking that any online forum represents anything more than an online majority. From what I've seen the majority of people in this country don't even know what streaming is yet.

It sound like you agree with me when I say people are happy with DVD quality.

For the second part I should have used the word "eventually". Sales of disc based media have be declining while streaming is increasing. Add to that the VoD and other ways to get movies, and it will all one day over take the purchasing of discs. It's nowhere near there yet, but wait 5 to 10 years.
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post #26 of 41 Old 10-12-2010, 11:09 AM
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It sound like you agree with me when I say people are happy with DVD quality.

For the second part I should have used the word "eventually". Sales of disc based media have be declining while streaming is increasing. Add to that the VoD and other ways to get movies, and it will all one day over take the purchasing of discs. It's nowhere near there yet, but wait 5 to 10 years.

I would agree that typical home screen sizes severely bias most peoples perception of the quality difference between the two formats, making the difference seem closer than it really is.

I was thinking the last few sales figures I saw for packaged media, sales were actually up compared to last year, for both BD and DVD. I can see why dvd would be down though; it's harder to justify investing in the format, now that the industry has imposed the future of TV as being HD, once you realize that dvd is not high def anyway. Even if I couldn't justify high defs price premium yet, I'd probably stick with renting until I could.

I think it's still a bit early to tell what's going to happen with electronic delivery. Even once resolution and compression improves, which I have my doubts about the later unless they develop far more efficient compression solutions, as it doesn't seem to be a priority for content providers to increase bandwidths; just look at DirecTV and Cable, neither of which has improved in over 20 years in that regard, and once the infrastructure is there, there are apparently still some roadblocks and political hurdles to overcome.

It seems logical that electronic delivery will eventually become a very popular if not the preferred way for renting films. I'm sure studios would love not having to spend so much on bonus content for discs (though can you imagine all the companies that would be out of business if streaming ever actually replaced packaged media - not that it matters, because that won't happen until hard-disc or some sort of satellite storage becomes a viable alternative, in both price and convenience, to collecting discs) but I'm not certain the repeat business of a rental society, especially one that can record the content for repeate viewings that doesn't have to rent them again, will ever be as lucrative for studios as the hard-copy market is today, without regulating prices more.

I'd love to be able to download any movie in 1080p with BD compression ratio quality, with lossless surround and skip all the extras, for a couple bucks or less per movie, and save the films to a massive storage unit that runs to every TV in the house and can be linked to through the net, so I can access my movies at a friends house when I'm visiting, or so I can watch them on the go. But I suspect studios feel a little more threatened by the very notion of such a future, not to mention every business that is in any way related to the entertainment industry.

They say if they ever found a cure for cancer, it would take 50 years to gradually prepare the industry; apparently our very economy could collapse if a cure were introduced overnight that voided all current forms of treatment, due to all the occupations related to those treatments. Of course the same has often been said about fuel, energy, and many other markets; I suspect as large as the movie industry is, it would apply to it too. But the notion that the medical industry or the government itself would actually withhold a cure for cancer itself... that really got me though, considering how many millions would die in even a much shorter length of time.

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post #27 of 41 Old 10-13-2010, 08:51 AM
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Add to that the VoD and other ways to get movies, and it will all one day over take the purchasing of discs. It's nowhere near there yet, but wait 5 to 10 years.

Some media experts were saying this in the 90's about CD and DVD. I still see racks and racks full of CD's and DVD's in Best Buy, Borders, Books a Million, Walmart, etc.

Here is what I no longer see (at Walmart):


Turned out it was not The next big thing in music.
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post #28 of 41 Old 10-19-2010, 10:59 AM
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Some media experts were saying this in the 90's about CD... I still see racks and racks full of CD's ...Best Buy, Borders, Books a Million, Walmart, etc.

Maybe they have full racks because they can't sell them!

MP3 download sales passed CDs back in 2008.
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post #29 of 41 Old 10-19-2010, 11:21 AM
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Maybe they have full racks because they can't sell them!

MP3 download sales passed CDs back in 2008.

False.

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CDs, however, aren't dead (yet). They remain the most popular music format at 65 percent of all music sold during 2009 thus far, with Walmart leading the physical sales market with 20 percent share. NPD's VP of entertainment industry analysis Russ Crupnick pointed out that big box retailers shouldn't be dismissed for this exact reasonso long as the majority of music sold in the US is still on CD.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...of-digital.ars
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post #30 of 41 Old 10-20-2010, 05:40 AM
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All streaming vendors will choose quantity over quality, because quantity pays the bills. The BD will continue to have the highest quality picture and sound because there is no economic incentive to do anything else: The bandwidth is a sunk cost on BD. That being the case, then videophiles are in the same boat as audiophiles (and are probably the same people) and will have to go the extra mile to get their quality.

That is the good news for this forum, because this is a software media forum, and packaged media will continue to be the premium format.
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