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post #61 of 179 Old 10-26-2011, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's one where I previously compared HDTV vs Blu-ray, so adding in the streaming services I have a bunch of different sources to show.

Amazon Instant Video @ 2.5Mbps 720p AVC (Prime streaming)


Netflix @ 3.8Mbps 720p VC-1 (Roku)


Netflix @ 4.8Mbps 1080p AVC (PS3)


Vudu HDX 2-min preview @ 1/2/3 bars


Fox HDTV broadcast @ 9.86Mbps 720p MPEG-2 (resized to 1080 using Lanczos)


Blu-ray @ 28Mbps 1080p AVC


Amazon is obviously crippled by its bitrate even though it's using AVC. Not just smoothing and banding, but also crushing near-blacks into nothingness. This is the PC streaming file, which the Roku also accesses. Does anyone know if their download option for purchases uses the same format?

Netflix and Vudu appear to be using an unfinished color grading...? It looks like more than just a brightness shift.

I'm sort of surprised that even Vudu at the highest bitrate is doing a worse job than the MPEG-2 I-frame at reproducing the thick, heavy grain.
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post #62 of 179 Old 10-26-2011, 06:42 PM
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Using only the first image (woman on phone), the TV broadcast appears to be just ever so slightly sharper than the BD. Netflix 1080p seems slightly sharper than 1 bar HDX, but considerably less sharp than 2 and 3 bar.

I love close-ups of human faces for this--so much detail.

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post #63 of 179 Old 10-26-2011, 07:11 PM
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hmmm..... In that last shot, HDX w/3 bars looked nothing like Blu Ray or broadcast TV... However, I find it to be strange that I've always found Dish Network HD to be nothing like Blu Ray. Is Dish Network HD inferior to the broadcast HD you are talking about?
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post #64 of 179 Old 10-26-2011, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes. Here's a recent thread showing how deficient Dish's PQ is: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1368004

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Using only the first image (woman on phone), the TV broadcast appears to be just ever so slightly sharper than the BD.

Hmm, I'm not seeing that. One area that looks better defined on the Blu-ray is/are her eyelashes.

Quote:


I love close-ups of human faces for this--so much detail.

Doesn't hurt that she's easy on the eyes, either.
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post #65 of 179 Old 10-26-2011, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Hmm, I'm not seeing that. One area that looks better defined on the Blu-ray is/are her eyelashes.

I looked again and the area where I detect superior detail in the BD is the iris of her left eye (on the right side of the image as we face it). I thought that there was better detail in the texture of the skin on her cheek, but it's debatable.

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post #66 of 179 Old 10-27-2011, 01:03 PM
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"Yes. Here's a recent thread showing how deficient Dish's PQ is: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1368004"

So it turns out Dish Network indeed has inferior PQ... that's unfortunate
Anyways, I'm pretty surprised how well Vudu HDX stacks up against Blu Ray. I mean, HDX is STREAMING, after all. Blu ray is still noticeably better though, and the main reason I prefer it over streaming are the rental prices. For example, and HDX movie on Vudu costs $5.99, while I can rent a BD for $1.50. I presume the prices to purchase a movie are roughly the same, however.
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post #67 of 179 Old 10-27-2011, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a ridiculously huge comparison, this time including an iTunes download [edit: now 1080p iTunes too]. Set aside some time and bandwidth cause this one will take over 100MB.

For some reason this one episode is free to "buy" on Amazon. Turns out that their streaming encode is different than what you get when downloading purchases. Amazon provides some info on the bitrates used for its Flash streaming here. I haven't found a page where they detail the download format, but it seems to be VC-1 with WMA or AC3. The two total-bitrate calculations below include container overhead.

Column 1 - Amazon .flv: 931,926,566 bytes / 47:08 = 2.64Mbps
Calculated from demuxed streams: 2501kbps AVC + 128kbps 48kHz stereo AAC

Column 2 - Amazon .wmv: 2,275,520,344 bytes / 47:08 = 6.44Mbps
Details tab: 9000kbps (that may be the maximum since it's not the average) + 384kbps 48kHz 6-channel
After playing: WMP says 6384kbps

Column 3 - Netflix on Roku: 3800kbps VC-1 + stereo

Column 4 - iTunes 720p .m4v: 3973kbps AVC + 384kbps 48kHz 6-channel AC3 + 160kbps 48kHz stereo AAC [displayed via FFVideoSource]

Column 5 - iTunes 720p .m4v: 3973kbps AVC + 384kbps 48kHz 6-channel AC3 + 160kbps 48kHz stereo AAC [displayed via iTunes at 1080p]

Column 6 - iTunes 1080p .m4v:4660kbps AVC + 384kbps 48kHz 6-channel AC3 + 160kbps 48kHz stereo AAC [displayed via iTunes]

Column 7 - Netflix on PS3: 4800kbps AVC + 384kbps 6-channel E-AC3

Columns 8-10 - Vudu on PS3: 4500kbps to 9000kbps AVC w/"TruFilm" techniques + E-AC3

Column 11 - Blu-ray: 20500kbps AVC + 3232kbps 48kHz 6-channel DTS-HD MA + 192kbps stereo commentary

[unable to get X-High]
[see below for the many, many Vudu images..... ..... ...... ..... .....]


[..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ....]
[..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ....]
[..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ....]

You would think that the much higher bitrate (over 2x) would allow Amazon's VC-1 encode to look much better than their AVC across the board, but which one is better actually depends which scene you compare. And it's almost always worse than Netflix's lower-bitrate VC-1...

Row #2 is particularly challenging for all of the encodes; even the Blu-ray shows artifacts. Random grain mixed with ill-defined flowing water. I ran into lots of weirdness with Vudu on this frame. Either their "bars" are reporting the current buffering level rather than the encode that's playing, or they're just as glitched as Netflix's PS3 overlay is now. I encountered 4 different "HDX" images, distinct from each other and from the highest "HD" stream. I decided to rank them according to how I perceive their relative quality and present them as-is in their confusing glory:





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post #68 of 179 Old 10-28-2011, 06:03 AM
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Great comparison!!! Vudu HDX with 3 bars looks very, very close to Blu Ray with that first black and white row of shots, but the black and white shot of that little white ball looked far better on blu. The one with the cars also looked a bit better on blu ray, but the difference wasn't too big IMO. However, I can't say the same about the other streaming services. I would love it if you did a comparison of some of the newer blockbusters between Vudu HDX and Blu Ray, such as HP7, Fast Five, Limitless, etc. I'm currently more interested in Vudu HDX vs Blu Ray than in other streaming services, since it's pretty obvious that HDX offers the best quality. I would also imagine that Vudu would look a lot closer to Blu Ray when comparing older tv shows/ older movies. Am I right?
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post #69 of 179 Old 10-29-2011, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chachaseeds View Post

However, I can't say the same about the other streaming services. I would love it if you did a comparison of some of the newer blockbusters between Vudu HDX and Blu Ray, such as HP7, Fast Five, Limitless, etc.

Only one of those I have interest in is Limitless and I don't feel like picking up the Blu to rewatch it. I'll try to keep the request in mind though.

Quote:


I would also imagine that Vudu would look a lot closer to Blu Ray when comparing older tv shows/ older movies. Am I right?

It really depends. The big "problem" is grain and that's usually more a question of the specific content than age.

"Red State" (HD) - X-High vs Vudu (2 bars)




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post #70 of 179 Old 10-31-2011, 05:50 PM
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A quick question, but how do u get your HDX to be 2 bars, whenever you want it to? Also, here are some other suggestions for a good Blu Ray vs HDX comparison of newer movies:
Green Lantern, Captain America, X men 1st class, Thor, Priest, Transformers, Pirates of the Caribbean, Battle Los Angeles, etc. Sorry if I listed some kiddie movies that you have no interest in watching :P
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post #71 of 179 Old 10-31-2011, 05:56 PM
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You should also do a comparison of Black Hawk Down on Netflix :P I watched it on Netflix, it was really nice. Pretty certain it's 1080p/5.1 channel audio.
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post #72 of 179 Old 10-31-2011, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chachaseeds View Post

A quick question, but how do u get your HDX to be 2 bars, whenever you want it to?

I don't really want it to be. My internet service level is nominally 8Mbps so 2 bars is what I usually get. It takes a lot of buffering and pausing tricks to get 3 bars for several seconds so I can take a screengrab. 1 bar is easier to "force" since I can partially saturate my connection and fast forward around a bit.

I'll try to get shots of a newer movie.
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post #73 of 179 Old 11-01-2011, 05:45 AM
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Man, 8 mbps is decent, but for videophiles like us, you should probably try to get a better connection :P Anyways, thank you for your pics!
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post #74 of 179 Old 11-01-2011, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Total bitrate calculations include container overhead.

Amazon .flv: 36,577,760 bytes / 1:51 (25 fps) = 2.64Mbps
Calculated from demuxed streams: 2500kbps + 128kbps 48kHz stereo

Amazon .wmv
: 89,231,658 bytes / 1:55 (23.976 fps) = 6.21Mbps
Details tab: 9000kbps + 256kbps 48kHz stereo
After playing: WMP says 6245kbps

Vudu HDX download: 118.2MB / 1:51 (25 fps) = 8.52Mbps (assuming base-10 MB)

Vudu HD stream: 2.25Mbps to ?Mbps (anyone remember the upper level here?)

Here's Amazon on the Roku just to show it's the same as the FLV (but needlessly shifted).


I outputted them all at only 720p, so we're looking at the compression of the HDX stream rather than the resolution.





(another example of the bars not indicating the quality of the video being shown)
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post #75 of 179 Old 11-01-2011, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Standard definition, for a change. All of the shots here are resized using Lanczos for the sake of the correct aspect ratio and matching frame size. Amazon FLV is originally 640x480 and the other two were captured at 720x480.

Amazon's stream isn't deinterlaced. At all. Even though it's encoded using AVC's progressive mode. And Roku also receives this awfulness. I haven't looked at any other episode so maybe they're better, but this indicates a complete lack of quality control.



Meanwhile, Netflix's encodes are blend-deinterlaced.

Amz 1195kbps AVC vs Roku 1.5Mbps VC-1 vs PS3 1.75Mbps AVC








Since I've turned this thread into a comparison of different services, this is relevant to SD TV shows: Comparing Digital Video Downloads of Interlaced TV Shows
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post #76 of 179 Old 11-01-2011, 06:39 PM
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sorry...I haven't been keeping up. When you say "Roku" do you mean Roku 1 or 2, and is that Netflix (or another service) on Roku?

I don't have one.
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post #77 of 179 Old 11-01-2011, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Netflix on Roku 1.

I believe Roku 2 gets the same Netflix encodes as the PS3.
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post #78 of 179 Old 11-03-2011, 04:22 PM
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good comparison. Man, those <2 mbps shots look soooooo bad!!!!! I would appreciate it if u did more Vudu HDX vs bluray w/newer releases.
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post #79 of 179 Old 11-03-2011, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Didn't realize before that Blu-ray.com had screenshots from early in the movie.

Blu-ray.com JPEG vs Vudu mid-HDX



300% zoom showing the green/magenta color fringing on the Blu-ray that isn't present on Vudu


Does anyone remember what other RED movies had this problem on Blu-ray? Antichrist and Valhalla Rising aren't on Vudu.
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post #80 of 179 Old 11-05-2011, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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This is Vudu's "First Ten Minutes Free" video download (full HDX) compared to the Blu-ray and the first two minutes of the actual Vudu movie. For some reason the 10 Min video is open matte while the movie itself is OAR.




[.]
[.]
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post #81 of 179 Old 11-05-2011, 01:29 PM
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Thank you for those shots. Your work is appreciated :P
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post #82 of 179 Old 11-05-2011, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

For some reason the 10 Min video is open matte while the movie itself is OAR.

Seems to be open matte plus zoomed and cropped a little.

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post #83 of 179 Old 11-06-2011, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Amazon HD rental on Roku 1: 2.5Mbps AVC (upscaled from 720p using Lanczos)

Vudu HD stream: 2.25Mbps to 4.5Mbps (upscaled from 720p by PS3 app)

Vudu HDX download: 10.18GB = 81440Mbits / (2:34:21 = 9261s) = 8.794Mbps total - 0.384Mbps audio (guess) = ~8.41Mbps AVC (assuming base-10 MB)

Blu-ray: 27.67Mbps AVC

First a comparison of the HDX download to the 2-minute HDX preview stream. I'm going to say they're the same.



The rest behind spoiler tags, both because there are 40(!) frames from each, and because there may actually be spoilers here.



The compression differences are kind of moot when the colors and levels are both totally screwed on the streaming versions. See the histogram on the right:


But it's still clear that Vudu has a long way to go before it can stand up to Blu-ray during high action.

Since images can't tell you what's before and after each scene, I'll point out that the reason 5:15 (row #3) is so overcompressed on Vudu HDX is that it just spent a ton of bits on the shot before it (very grainy B&W closeup of astronaut's footprint).

Some shots display higher horizontal resolution on Vudu than on Blu-ray. I've posted more on this in the Dark of the Moon Blu-ray thread.

A separate issue that applies to every 5.1 track I've checked out on Vudu; the volume is boosted to the point of clipping. Netflix outputs at normal levels.

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post #84 of 179 Old 11-06-2011, 04:39 PM
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Greatest comparison shots collection EVER. You totally nailed what I wanted. It's fairly obvious that bluray simply has more detail. However, Vudu's HDX still looks great, especially compared to the other streaming services. Thank you for those pics. If Vudu lowered their rental prices from $6 to like $2 (Redbox bluray rentals cost $1.60), I would definitely use it more than renting/buying blurays, despite the fairly obvious quality difference in newer, high-octane movies like this one. Truth is, I'm not too much of a quality freak - Even Netflix HD will suffice for me. Also, I'm not much of movie buyer - I mainly rent BD's from my local Redbox and stream TV shows from Netflix.
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post #85 of 179 Old 11-08-2011, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Trouble is... I don't know why anyone would deliberately do that to a 1080p source, or alternatively how it could happen accidentally. Perhaps it's not a problem with the stream itself but rather a longstanding bug in the PS3 app.

300% zoom of the bottom-right circle from each:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

dr1394


Netflix


dr1394 + half-pixel shift


Well, it looks the same on Roku 2. So either the PS3 and Roku 2 apps are both shifting the image, or it is how the stream itself appears.
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post #86 of 179 Old 12-06-2011, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Amazon on Roku 2: 2.5Mbps AVC

Amazon .wmv: 2,546,392,067 bytes / 53:01 = 6.40Mbps total
Details tab: 9000kbps + 384kbps 48kHz 6-channel

Blu-ray: ~23Mbps AVC

Vudu HDX preview on PS3 (one screenshot)








My feeling is that Amazon's HD is a last resort, only to be used when the content isn't available elsewhere.
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post #87 of 179 Old 12-06-2011, 06:02 PM
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It's interesting that the 2.5 Mbps Amazon stream is sharper than the 6.4 Mbps VC-1 download.

What do you mean by "details tab"? Was that supposed to be 6000 Kbps and not 9000 Kbps?

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post #88 of 179 Old 12-06-2011, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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When you right-click on a media file in Windows and choose Properties, then Details. It does say 9000; in one of my earlier posts I theorized that it may be the maximum since it's clearly not the average.
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post #89 of 179 Old 12-07-2011, 04:05 PM
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Funny how the Prime streaming looks way better than the .wmv... HDX w/ 2 bars isn't nearly as good as bluray, however.
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post #90 of 179 Old 12-07-2011, 04:07 PM
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I would also appreciate it if you did a bluray w/ incorrect (streaming) colorspace vs Vudu HDX download, with bluray having its full horizontal rez.

Also, what in the world happened here:
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2...n36vuduhdx.png
???
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