Can Blu Ray be topped? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 67 Old 02-21-2012, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

I myself think that Apple is going to be the next big technology in TV and movies! It is no secret and I am looking forward to the next year or so to see what develops!

From NPD
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NPD said there were 40 million transactional VOD purchases via cable, satellite TV and fiber-optic providers, which represented 15% of consumers aged 13 and older. By comparison, there were 7 million Internet-based transactional VOD purchases generating $204 million in revenue during the period, which represented 16% of the entire transactional VOD movie market. Web-based transactional VOD includes iTunes, Amazon Instant Video and Walmart's Vudu, among other services.

IIRC, iTunes accounted for > 60% of the total IPTV transactional VOD.

Internet-based transactional VOD is not stirring up a lot of dust when one considers the number of devices capable of IPTV VOD. There is a lot of talk but no beef.
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post #32 of 67 Old 02-22-2012, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by John J. Puccio View Post

But two years? I don't think so. Heck, not everyone even has a computer yet, let alone high-speed broadband. Give it another ten years, and let's talk about it.

John

Spot on John

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post #33 of 67 Old 02-22-2012, 09:54 AM
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I remember an article on Cnet (maybe someone else) that claimed that Blu-ray was a failed technology. Their reasoning was that for most people DVD was simply "good enough". It's very true that many people are satisfied with DVD quality, but it's scary nonetheless.

A while back my brother was explaining to me a dual laser scenario. Where rather than release an entirely new disc format, we would simply pack both sides of the Blu-ray with half the information, and have a laser on each side run simultaneously. Not sure if he read about this somewhere or thought it up himself, but this sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
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post #34 of 67 Old 02-22-2012, 04:36 PM
 
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Can Blu Ray be topped?

From a specs standpoint . . . sure. Already is with high performance flash. Larger storage, higher bit rate. Problem is the cost of manufacturing. A BD costs about a buck to replicate.

Is Hollywood ever going to give consumers access to higher then 4:2:0 video? IMO - no. So why would you need better then BD specs?
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post #35 of 67 Old 02-22-2012, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Is Hollywood ever going to give consumers access to higher then 4:2:0 video? IMO - no. So why would you need better then BD specs?

Even if no studio was prepared to release titles with higher than 4:2:0 video in a consumer format, that isn't the only spec that could be improved on, so there can be other reasons for releasing an improved BD format/better format.
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post #36 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 02:26 AM
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This talk I see here sometimes of 4k resolution being the holy grail confuses me.

Proponents will argue that film has a much higher resolution than 1080. Yes that may be true but film is seen on a screen much more than 4 times the size of any TV in someone's home.

Doesn't a 1080 display that is say 60 inches have more effective resolution than a 2 story high cinema screen that is "4k"?

In my opinion most movies on Blu Ray already look too clean and perfect, not like the movies I remember seeing when they originally came out at all. That's why I'll stick with LD for the classics (Star Wars definitive etc).
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post #37 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yo Joe Cola View Post

Doesn't a 1080 display that is say 60 inches have more effective resolution than a 2 story high cinema screen that is "4k"?

It also depends on seating distance. People sit much further away from an IMAX screen than they would from a 60" HDTV. But you're on to a real problem--there is a point at which increased resolution would no longer be perceptible from any realistic distance, and there's a lively debate about where exactly that point is. Certainly some agree that 4K is well beyond that limit. And some don't.

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Originally Posted by Yo Joe Cola View Post

In my opinion most movies on Blu Ray already look too clean and perfect, not like the movies I remember seeing when they originally came out at all.

You're probably mostly talking about the grain-scrubbing fad currently infecting the industry. This is unrelated to resolution or format. A theoretical 4K format wouldn't suffer from it unless the fad continued. Properly done, film should look like film, at any decent resolution.

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Originally Posted by Yo Joe Cola View Post

That's why I'll stick with LD for the classics (Star Wars definitive etc).

The other reason is that there's not a significantly better official version of that trilogy available yet... the Definitive Edition looks like crap by any modern standard. It hardly looks like film either--lack of resolution destroys grain too (and DVNR, which afflicts the DE as well).
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post #38 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 10:06 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read somewhere that BD technology can be easilly altered to accomodate 4K resolution. If so then the consortium that brought us bluray was already thinking ahead to the next big thing in HT. Add to that the fact that many movies are already mastered in 4K and we are good to go once the 4K sets and players come out.

Yes, the average joe is happy with DVD, but BD is continuing to making inroads and even if stays at a 10 to 15% market penetration and continues to make the studios money then HT enthusiasts don't have to worry for the next few years. Downloading caps will always hinder the next big thing in resolution and PQ thus keeping physical formats around for a long time. Once 4k is possible on the 'net, then we go to 8K on a physical format and so on...

Not sure if holographic images are viable. They would have to be solid and high resolution to work. Would probably require a totally dark environment as well. Not sure if any present tech can do this.....
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post #39 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CatBus View Post

It also depends on seating distance. People sit much further away from an IMAX screen than they would from a 60" HDTV. .

Hadn't thought of that.



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You're probably mostly talking about the grain-scrubbing fad currently infecting the industry. This is unrelated to resolution or format. A theoretical 4K format wouldn't suffer from it unless the fad continued. Properly done, film should look like film, at any decent resolution.

interesting..

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The other reason is that there's not a significantly better official version of that trilogy available yet... the Definitive Edition looks like crap by any modern standard. It hardly looks like film either--lack of resolution destroys grain too (and DVNR, which afflicts the DE as well).

To me it looks a lot more natural than the DVD and sounds supremely better of course. Have not seen the BD but have avoided that for the reason you stated.
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post #40 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Even if no studio was prepared to release titles with higher than 4:2:0 video in a consumer format, that isn't the only spec that could be improved on, so there can be other reasons for releasing an improved BD format/better format.

They will be able to do 4K on the existing BD platform using a more advanced video codec.

So what did you have in mind? 48 FPS? Just because it will be offered in theaters doesn't mean consumers will get it. Good way to get consumers into theaters again - to see something they can't get at home.
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post #41 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 01:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yo Joe Cola View Post

This talk I see here sometimes of 4k resolution being the holy grail confuses me.

Proponents will argue that film has a much higher resolution than 1080. Yes that may be true but film is seen on a screen much more than 4 times the size of any TV in someone's home.

Doesn't a 1080 display that is say 60 inches have more effective resolution than a 2 story high cinema screen that is "4k"?

In my opinion most movies on Blu Ray already look too clean and perfect, not like the movies I remember seeing when they originally came out at all. That's why I'll stick with LD for the classics (Star Wars definitive etc).

35mm film does have a higher resoltuion then 2K (1080P). The problem is, that higher resolution is measured at the camera negative. By the time consumers see a 35mm print, the resolution has dropped considerably because film is analog. Each time they "step down" from the previous film element, the resolution drops.

Camera Negative to Interpositive/Internegative to Print. The Print has a fraction of the resolution of the Camera Negative.
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post #42 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by brownriggd View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read somewhere that BD technology can be easilly altered to accomodate 4K resolution.

You can put 4K on a CD. The medium itself doesnt prevent you. Its the standard that put the limit. The current BD specs doesnt allow 4K. You can of course create a new standard and use Bluray as a storage medium.

But you will still need new players.
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post #43 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Yo Joe Cola View Post

To me it looks a lot more natural than the DVD and sounds supremely better of course. Have not seen the BD but have avoided that for the reason you stated.

Actually I find the bonus disc DVD version of Star Wars to look slightly better than any Laserdisc version, and it has the correct opening crawl too. But then it also has the entirely wrong soundtrack, which pretty much ruins it (not to mention it's still crap quality for a DVD). There is no official Blu Ray version of the Star Wars trilogy, just the special editions.
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post #44 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

They will be able to do 4K on the existing BD platform using a more advanced video codec.

Existing Bd platform, but it will need new specs, new players and hardware decoders, etc.
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So what did you have in mind? 48 FPS? Just because it will be offered in theaters doesn't mean consumers will get it. Good way to get consumers into theaters again - to see something they can't get at home.

Of course, as many new formats and better spec options as possible (without making it over-complex) - not just that.

In around 2020 they'll be broadcasting on TV about 7680x4320p120 in Japan, so should they really be limiting to a quarter of the resolution and at 24 fps?
They can also already get 60 fps at 720p at home.
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post #45 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

In around 2020 they'll be broadcasting on TV about 7680x4320p120 in Japan, so should they really be limiting to a quarter of the resolution and at 24 fps?

NHK-STRL says "SHV is expected to be viewed on large screens in theatres, medium screens in homes, and on small, portable screens."

If you have 20/20 vision and watch 8K4K (7680x4320) resolution on a 100" (or smaller) display from a distance of 6' (or further), it is visually indistinguishable from a down-sample to 4K2K (3840x2160) resolution. So only those homes with significantly larger than 100" displays would (might be!) adversely affected by limiting the native resolution of HOME ENTERTAINMENT disks to 4K2K.

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post #46 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

NHK-STRL says "SHV is expected to be viewed on large screens in theatres, medium screens in homes, and on small, portable screens."

If you have 20/20 vision and watch 8K4K (7680x4320) resolution on a 100" (or smaller) display from a distance of 6' (or further), it is visually indistinguishable from a down-sample to 4K2K (3840x2160) resolution. So only those homes with significantly larger than 100" displays would (might be!) adversely affected by limiting the native resolution of HOME ENTERTAINMENT disks to 4K2K.

The viewing distance do they recommend for 7680x4320 SHV is 0.75x picture height

http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/superhivision/

So for an 80" 7680x4320 TV that's about 2.451 feet for 1.78:1 content
or for a 100" 7680x4320 TV about 3.06 feet for 1.78:1 content

Though your "visually indistinguishable" from 4K is omitting the much higher frame rate of 120 fps of full SHV - which would be easily distinguishable from 4K 24fps BD content, even at greater than 6' away.
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Online streaming and online movie rentals will take over.

The only sony product I've owned since my sony tv died back in 1987 has been a PS3. I only got it to play online games with my friends. Now, I only use it for NetFlix and Vudu.

I think sony is a bully and I refuse to own anything else made by them or anything that includes a product they bullied onto the market. That includes blu-ray.

HD DVD was a much better and much more mature product than blu-ray.

I own a couple hundred DVD movies 20 or so HD DVD movies and 0 blu-ray movies.
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post #48 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

The viewing distance do they recommend for 7680x4320 SHV is 0.75x picture height
http://www.nhk.or.jp/digital/en/superhivision/
So for an 80" 3840x2160 TV is that about 2.451 feet for 1.78:1 content?
or for a 100" 3840x2160 TV about 3.06 feet for 1.78:1 content?

No. Viewing distance for...
..
80" 3840x2160 TV is about 5' (40" height * 1.5)
100" 3840x2160 TV is about 6' (50" height * 1.5)

80" 7680x4320 TV is about 2.5' (40" height * 0.75)
100" 7680x4320 TV is about 3' (50" height * 0.75)

So 7680x4320 resolution might be good for a 200" TV in a Sports Bar with patrons sitting at all distances from 6' to 60'...


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post #49 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 05:11 PM
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Yes, you're right I made a mistake The figures I gave were for the 7680x4320 TVs not the 3840x2160 which I put in - I'll update my post .
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post #50 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 05:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Existing Bd platform, but it will need new specs, new players and hardware decoders, etc.

So? How many different BD players have they introduced since June 2006? What's one more?

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Of course, as many new formats and better spec options as possible (without making it over-complex) - not just that.

In around 2020 they'll be broadcasting on TV about 7680x4320p120 in Japan, so should they really be limiting to a quarter of the resolution and at 24 fps?
They can also already get 60 fps at 720p at home.

Right - Japan. So what has that to do with the USA? Japan has SAT BD recorders - the USA doesn't.
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post #51 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Right - Japan. So what has that to do with the USA? Japan has SAT BD recorders - the USA doesn't.

I'm not in the USA . What they develop in Japan often also gets shown/released in the USA/UK too - maybe later on. The UK has Blu-ray recorders that can record OTA HD ie. Freeview HD (not sure about satellite - Freesat HD). eg. the Olympics in SHV will be available to view on a small number of screens this year in the USA and UK too.
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post #52 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Right - Japan. So what has that to do with the USA?

That would be the same Japan where the current US HDTV system was invented, right?

In September 2011, Planning Team 2 (PT-2) of the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) issued their "Final Report on ATSC 3.0 Next Generation Broadcast Television (NGBT)" (PT2-046r11-Final-Report-on-NGBT.pdf) which shows|suggests that currently both 8K4K and 4K2K resolutions are under consideration for the US HDTV system replacement "whenever".

Also interesting (from UK Ofcom in 2009) is "Beyond HDTV" (Beyond_HDTV.pdf).

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post #53 of 67 Old 02-23-2012, 11:34 PM
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I see a lot about future displays with Quad Full High Definition (QFHD) resolution (3840x2160 pixels), but I've seldom seen references to Wide Quad High Definition (WQHD) resolution (2560x1440 pixels) . . . which is the "four times 720p" display standard.

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post #54 of 67 Old 02-24-2012, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

I see a lot about future displays with Quad Full High Definition (QFHD) resolution (3840x2160 pixels), but I've seldom seen references to Wide Quad High Definition (WQHD) resolution (2560x1440 pixels) . . . which is the "four times 720p" display standard.

From a technical point of view, we have the Philips 21:9 displays. With 2560*1080 resolution. That equals a 2.35:1 movie in WQHD.

Uncertain that it can take a WQHD signal on the other hand.
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post #55 of 67 Old 02-24-2012, 12:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

That would be the same Japan where the current US HDTV system was invented, right?

Not really - Japan's original HDTV system was analog.
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post #56 of 67 Old 03-02-2012, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

That would be the same Japan where the current US HDTV system was invented, right?

In September 2011, Planning Team 2 (PT-2) of the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) issued their "Final Report on ATSC 3.0 Next Generation Broadcast Television (NGBT)" (PT2-046r11-Final-Report-on-NGBT.pdf) which shows|suggests that currently both 8K4K and 4K2K resolutions are under consideration for the US HDTV system replacement "whenever".

Also interesting (from UK Ofcom in 2009) is "Beyond HDTV" (Beyond_HDTV.pdf).

AT the moment, I am very satisfied with my Cable providers picture! Some channels are better than others, but me and again I say "me" I think the picture is very close to Blu Ray. With our service we have On Demand, I don't know if that is a national thing, but some of the movies I have been watching lately on OD HD are top notch, not to mention the sound!
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post #57 of 67 Old 03-02-2012, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

AT the moment, I am very satisfied with my Cable providers picture! Some channels are better than others, but me and again I say "me" I think the picture is very close to Blu Ray. With our service we have On Demand, I don't know if that is a national thing, but some of the movies I have been watching lately on OD HD are top notch, not to mention the sound!

I, too, have Comcast's On-Demand service, and since I subscribe to several premium channels (HBO, Showtime, etc.), I can see any of their movies in high def anytime I choose. Comcast almost also broadcasts them at 1.78:1 rather than their native aspect ratio, if 2.35:1, so often the widescreen is lost. There is no lossless audio. There are no bonus items. And while the cable's PQ is decent, it is nowhere near as clear, sharp, and vivid, nor the black levels as deep, as the same movie on Blu-ray. In other words, over-the-air high def has a long way to go to equal the quality of disc reproduction.

John
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post #58 of 67 Old 03-02-2012, 01:14 PM
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I agree were moving into online realm.

IMO we should be worried about quality decreasing... bandwidth caps are creating lower quality viewing online.

Internet might decide quality upgrade, and I dont see it coming for awhile.

Im more concerned about lower quality 720p becoming the norm.
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post #59 of 67 Old 03-02-2012, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

I agree were moving into online realm. IMO we should be worried about quality decreasing... bandwidth caps are creating lower quality viewing online. Internet might decide quality upgrade, and I dont see it coming for awhile. Im more concerned about lower quality 720p becoming the norm.

It would appear that amongst other things to come in the next few years, 'Everytown' residents can probably expect significant connected internet rate speed improvements (see Surfing at a Billion Bits Per Second). However, it seems unlikely that 'demanding viewers' will always have access to a high speed hard line (e.g., on a camping trip?), so we might think there will always also be a place for 'diskware'...?!

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post #60 of 67 Old 03-30-2012, 09:04 AM
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I'd like an optical storage medium that could hold 500GB to 1TB with cheap discs for archiving, but the market probably isn't there for it. As long as hard drives get larger and I have backup copies of my favorite movies (or all of them) I don't care about decreasing image quality from online streaming. Hollywood is pretty backward and probably won't ditch the disc medium unless they can find something equally as profitable with all the copy protection garbage intact to keep the record profits flowing.
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