Anyone care to speculate on the new 4k disc format? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

HDMI can do the QFHD format @ 24 fps... that's it as of now.

QFHD (3840×2160)? That's pretty damn good.

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Originally Posted by Neo_Reloaded View Post

I can see it now - Blu-ray 4K combo packs. 4k disc, regular 1080p disc, DVD, digital copy, etc.

Stop giving them ideas. You forgot $50 price.
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post #32 of 110 Old 04-02-2012, 08:59 AM
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We will have to wait until July 2012 when the HEVC committee publishes the new H.265 codec that address 4K resolution. Then Sony can choose between that codec, Redray codec, or their own propriety codec (which they always love to do). HEVC will be finalize in Jan 2013.
Sony is the one that will push 4K. They desperately need a new revenue stream. Their TV business is dead. 4K will give them a chance to partner with some other manufacture and get back in the race with the Chinese. Whether that is 4K CLED or OLED or just plain LCD. Their 4K projectors are selling well. They have the movie studio side to release the new 4K movies and make their old movies available in 4K as well. The movies will fit on the current BDXL 128GB discs at 2160p at higher frame rates using any of the new codecs. The biggest problem will be streaming. They could get it down 60-80 mbps, but that still leave a lot of homes with connections to slow. By late 2013 more homes should have adequate connections to at least start buffering and run a 4K movie 5 minutes after you request it.
The PS4 will probably be the first native 4K player and is scheduled for Christmas 2013 release (which seems early to me). The Xbox 720 should have 4K resolution as well, as they will be making more money on the movie/tv side than the gaming side and they expect it to have a 8-10 year life cycle like the current one. So 4K should start a serious launch early 2014 and slowly take off from there.
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post #33 of 110 Old 04-02-2012, 11:29 AM
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HDMI can do the QFHD format @ 24 fps... that's it as of now.

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Originally Posted by wuther View Post

QFHD (3840×2160)? That's pretty damn good.

HDMI 1.4 can do 3840x2160 at 24/25/30 Hz. Should really be a lot higher though.
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post #34 of 110 Old 04-02-2012, 01:11 PM
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In the early days of Blu-ray, the CEMs encouraged 'early adoption' [in part] by limiting the availability of dual DVD/BD SKUs at prices comparable to BD media alone--presenting consumers with a choice: either buy a Blu-ray player 'early' and start buying new movies on BD immediately, or defer purchasing a BD player, continue to buy new movies on DVD, and perhaps re-buy the same movies on BD when you eventually purchase a BD player. The wider use of combo DVD/BD retail packaging nowadays seems to signal the end of the early adoption phase, and a move to maturity|exploitation for the Blu-ray market.

There would seem to be less advantage to the consumer to make some decisive step-up from BD to 4kBD, so it would probably be best for the studios to package retail physical or download 4kBD content in a single combo BD|4kBD SKU, and at a price comparable to competitor movies in BD only, so as to encourage an evolutionary transition from BD to 4kBD by a widest possible group of BD player owners, and at their own pace.

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post #35 of 110 Old 04-03-2012, 01:50 PM
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Ah hell no. Another new format? I really hope this goes the way of DVD-audio/SACD and never gains traction. I don't wanna to go through all the re-buying of 4K material!
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post #36 of 110 Old 04-03-2012, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hceuterpe View Post

Ah hell no. Another new format? I really hope this goes the way of DVD-audio/SACD and never gains traction. I don't wanna to go through all the re-buying of 4K material!

What if the 4k disc is really good...? I don't think you want this to fail without viewing/listening to it first.

Hopefully, the price isn't crazy expensive. That would be a really dumb move by the studios. The economy is still shakey.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #37 of 110 Old 04-03-2012, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by hceuterpe View Post

Ah hell no. Another new format? [. . .] I don't wanna to go through all the re-buying of 4K material!

Especially so given that there is some possibility of 8K4K content appearing by the mid 2020s.

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post #38 of 110 Old 04-03-2012, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by hceuterpe View Post

Ah hell no. Another new format? I really hope this goes the way of DVD-audio/SACD and never gains traction. I don't wanna to go through all the re-buying of 4K material!

I hear ya man. I just really hate when studios give me the opportunity of buying a new, improved version of a film. Especially when I'm under no obligation whatsoever to upgrade.
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post #39 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

4K won't take. It just won't. Writing about it is pointless. 1920x1080p at 24-120hz is where all input mediums will be capped at for at least a decade.

We will have 4k monitors and cables, but 1080p Blu Ray will be the final format for intended for physical consumer delivery. You may see some token 4k discs bundled with hardware but it'll be like the MUSE Vision or Squeeze Laserdisc titles. Just a promotional fling to be abandoned.

When did I hear that last?

Oh yes.

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post #40 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Chikoo,

Great quotes! And so true...

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #41 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 05:20 PM
 
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They can use the existing BD platform of 50 Gb dual layer for 4K because . . .

1. They will use an advanced video codec (H.265)

2. It will still be 4:2:0

Until such time that the industry makes a committment to industry wide use of a higher frame rate, be it 48 FPS or higher, any movies shot that way will be unique so no reason to have a home video version that matches them. You want to see advanced frame rate movies - go to a theater showing them.
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post #42 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

They can use the existing BD platform of 50 Gb dual layer for 4K because . . .

1. They will use an advanced video codec (H.265)

2. It will still be 4:2:0

Until such time that the industry makes a committment to industry wide use of a higher frame rate, be it 48 FPS or higher, any movies shot that way will be unique so no reason to have a home video version that matches them. You want to see advanced frame rate movies - go to a theater showing them.

So, they're going to convert these newer 48 and 60 fps films down to 24 fps for home video??

Why wouldn't they add progressive video 30, 48, and 60 fps to the current 24 fps while they're at it? It just makes too much darn sense to future proof (and at least have a way to show old Todd-AO films at their original 30 fps in pure progressive). Dump interlaced video while they're at it. It's not needed anymore.

Sony, I believe, was thinking of upping the video bits to 10 or maybe 12. They were also very interested in the RED wavelet codec it seems. Could it be the basis for the newer, more efficient, and higher quality compression codec? Couldn't they enhance it and then call it MPEG-5 or something like that?

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #43 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 05:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

So, they're going to convert these newer 48 and 60 fps films down to 24 fps for home video??

Sure - not difficult at all. BTW there is no 60 FPS movie to date (not including special venue Showscan shorts).

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Why wouldn't they add progressive video 30, 48, and 60 fps to the current 24 fps while they're at it? It just makes too much darn sense to future proof (and at least have a way to show old Todd-AO films at their original 30 fps in pure progressive). Dump interlaced video while they're at it. It's not needed anymore.

So you are recommending that the BDA is going to make changes for what? A handful of movies? Hardly. They made the changes for 3D because 3D is an industry wide addition. And they could use the exisiting BD platform and BD replication machines.

The fact is, so far a single movie is being shot at 48FPS - THE HOBBITT

Quote:


Sony, I believe, was thinking of upping the video bits to 10 or maybe 12. They were also very interested in the RED wavelet codec it seems. Could it be the basis for the newer, more efficient, and higher quality compression codec? Couldn't they enhance it and then call it MPEG-5 or something like that?

LOL - they can think what they want, IMO Hollywood will not give us 10bit or 12bit color space. They didn't do it for HD (whose specs included it - Deep Color), they won't do it for 4K. And upping the color space bits makes a drastic change in the amount of storage required let alone upping the frame rate.

A while ago Sony and Panasonic showed an "improved" version of BD-ROM - 66GB dual layer . . .

So where is it?

High Efficiency Video Coding

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High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC) also known as H.265 is a draft video compression standard, a successor to H.264/MPEG-4 AVC (Advanced Video Coding), currently under joint development by the ISO/IEC Moving Picture Experts Group (MPEG) and ITU-T Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Ef...y_Video_Coding
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post #44 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 06:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

What if the 4k disc is really good...? I don't think you want this to fail without viewing/listening to it first.

Hopefully, the price isn't crazy expensive. That would be a really dumb move by the studios. The economy is still shakey.

How big of a market do you think exists for 4K?

Would you agree that the market size for BD is considerably less then it is for DVD?

What about HD Audio? Is there any other mass market platform besides BD that uses it extensively? Do all those that have an HDTV and BD player also have an HD Audio receiver?
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post #45 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Last I knew, Lee, Sony is a movie studio. They don't seem to mind increasing the color space. They did say that they might recommend widening the gamut of the Rec. 709 specs. a little bit but not drastically, though.

I'd like 10 or 12 bit color to lessen the possibility of banding and other color upconversion artifacting that occurs with 8 bit.

Hell, they'll need all the extra video bells 'n' whistles to sell this thing... it's going to have to look better than Blu-ray, that's for sure.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #46 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 09:45 PM
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The problem I see with 4K television and home video content is that it's only an incremental step on the way to the real upgrade that will eventually be UHDTV. DVD gave us an image twice as sharp as vhs. HD gave us an image six times as sharp as dvd. 4K would only be four times the resolution of HD. UHDTV, on the other hand, would be 16 times the resolution of HD.
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post #47 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 10:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fang Zei View Post

The problem I see with 4K television and home video content is that it's only an incremental step on the way to the real upgrade that will eventually be UHDTV. DVD gave us an image twice as sharp as vhs. HD gave us an image six times as sharp as dvd. 4K would only be four times the resolution of HD. UHDTV, on the other hand, would be 16 times the resolution of HD.

I think you are confusing the number of pixels versus the actual resolution of images. Six times the pixel count (as comparing DVD to BD/HD) does not result in a six times resolution increase. In actuality, it's only about a 2 to 2.5X increase in resolution.
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post #48 of 110 Old 04-04-2012, 10:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Last I knew, Lee, Sony is a movie studio.

If Sony wants to use BD as a platform for 4K, they have to get the BDA involved. They can't go it alone. Plus you are going to need more studio support for 4K then just Sony for it to be successful.

IMO, Sony is through with their own proprietary formats, especially after Betamax and UMD.

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They don't seem to mind increasing the color space. They did say that they might recommend widening the gamut of the Rec. 709 specs. a little bit but not drastically, though.

Sure - x.v.Color - already being used in some consumer HD Camcorders. But again, if it involves BD, it involves the BDA. But in reality, it's nothing more than a baby step when it comes to increasing the color space depth. It does very little to increase the Gray Scale.

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I'd like 10 or 12 bit color to lessen the possibility of banding and other color upconversion artifacting that occurs with 8 bit.

IMO, increasing the Gray Scale from it's current 256 to 1024 would be more noticeable to most consumers.

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Hell, they'll need all the extra video bells 'n' whistles to sell this thing... it's going to have to look better than Blu-ray, that's for sure.

And who will buy it? Videophiles - a VERY small segement of the overall market.
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post #49 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

The fact is, so far a single movie is being shot at 48FPS - THE HOBBITT

Or 2
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey and
The Hobbit: There and Back Again

"The two films are being shot simultaneously in 3-D"
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post #50 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

So, they're going to convert these newer 48 and 60 fps films down to 24 fps for home video??

Why wouldn't they add progressive video 30, 48, and 60 fps to the current 24 fps while they're at it? It just makes too much darn sense to future proof (and at least have a way to show old Todd-AO films at their original 30 fps in pure progressive). Dump interlaced video while they're at it. It's not needed anymore.

Because that would be unfair to Europeans who also want 25p and 50p at full res . They should also add 120 fps since that's what Douglass Trumbull will be shooting in, and is also what they intend to have SHV at - and also 100 fps.
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post #51 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 08:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Or 2
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey and
The Hobbit: There and Back Again

"The two films are being shot simultaneously in 3-D"

Right - 2 films one to be shown in 2012, the other in 2013. And in that time period they will also shoot another 1500 films, none of them higher then 24 FPS.
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post #52 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 08:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Because that would be unfair to Europeans who also want 25p and 50p at full res . They should also add 120 fps since that's what Douglass Trumbull will be shooting in, and is also what they intend to have SHV at - and also 100 fps.

What was the last full length Hollywood movie that Douglas Trumbull shot?
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post #53 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What was the last full length Hollywood movie that Douglas Trumbull shot?

I don't know, it's probably on the internet somewhere though, like imdb.
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And in that time period they will also shoot another 1500 films, none of them higher then 24 FPS.

I bet there will be some shot higher, and there will be plenty of TV programmes shot at more than 24 fps.
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post #54 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 09:51 AM
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One control that might make a comeback on the future 4KBD player is ZOOM. The problem with zooming in on some detail portion of the frame with a DVD player was that there was no additional detail to be revealed; you only saw the same blur but now covering a larger portion of the screen. However zooming 4K BD content on a 1080 line display offers several interesting possibilities: a 10% zoom puts around 20% more 'central picture detail' on the display, albeit at the expense of the peripheral content, but nonetheless that may be overall advantageous depending on the (picture) aspect ratio and|or the location|framing of the on-screen action. And playing a 4K BD on a 1080 line display at 2x offers different possibilities: you could discard 75% of the video content in favor of full 4K detail for the remaining 25% . . . a feature which I expect might be 'appealing' to aficionados of the 'adult video' industry's products!

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post #55 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 09:59 AM
 
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I don't know, it's probably on the internet somewhere though, like imdb.

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I bet there will be some shot higher, and there will be plenty of TV programmes shot at more than 24 fps.

Sure - 60P as in 720x60P HD
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post #56 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 10:01 AM
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It seems almost ridiculous to discuss 4K when BD is still :


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post #57 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

It seems almost ridiculous to discuss 4K when BD is still :


What would be more indicative of the future would be the numbers from only content available in both BD (including BD+DVD combo) and DVD SKUs...?!

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post #58 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 10:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

What would be more indicative of the future would be the numbers from only content available in both BD (including BD+DVD combo) and DVD SKUs...?!

Or maybe Laserdisc - a true Videophile format when it was released. So how did it do adoption wise?
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post #59 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

HDMI can do the QFHD format @ 24 fps... that's it as of now.

The Hobbit, as has been mentioned is one of the first to up the frame rate to 48 fps... some filmmakers want to go higher like up to 60 fps.

The current HDMI cable specs., if they can even be updated to support all this stuff, will ham string any new 4k format.

That's one reason professional A/V equipment rarely uses HDMI. They have other, better cable interfaces. So, why not encrypt them (to make Hollywood happy) and then apply them to new consumer gear?

HDMI is not going away anytime soon. There's too much invested in it. I believe consumer 4K (what little there will be) will be based on multiple HDMI
connections.

Based on the extremely poor financial model for consumer 4K I highly doubt anyone will want to further invest in developing a new consumer interface standard.

Pro interfaces like HDSDI are also multi channel to carry the bandwidth at 4K. And they don't support two way communication so Ethernet is also needed to carry the encryption keys back and forth. This is how it works in digital cinema.

Don't get me wrong. I hate HDMI too but just like death and taxes, it's here to stay.

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post #60 of 110 Old 04-05-2012, 12:45 PM
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It will be interesting to hear what's said about The Future of Broadcast Television (FoBTV) at NAB 2012 this month, as any timetable for a move towards 4K broadcasting ("Thomson Video Networks to Outline Route to 4K Broadcasting at the 2012 NAB Show") will likely affect manufacturing planning for 4K displays . . . which timetable would seem to be 'related' to any timetable for 4K BD disk-and-player roll out. Plus, even some 'not quite imminent' prospect of 4K broadcasting would be an incentive to shoot for TV in 4K--to be prepared for future rerun|export|disk sales even if the current first run of the show is limited to broadcast in 1080.

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