Anyone care to speculate on the new 4k disc format? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I know this is the Blu-ray software section, but since there seems to be some small industry rumblings on the subject of a new 4k disc medium to coincide with 4k displays, I thought I'd get a discussion going on the next new "it" thing on the horizon. Besides, it might get more hits than in some lesser frequented subforum.

Anyone hear anything besides a few hints at CES that we may see this new format in 2013?

Do you suppose it's going to be based on multi-layered 100 and 200 GB Blu-ray technology with a faster bitrate? Or do you think they'll finally use higher capacity holographic disc storage like GE Plastics' disc invention?

Will the rumors be true that it'll include 12 bit color and a wider gamut than the Rec. 709 standard?

Will they use a new video compression codec like RED's wavelet software for higher efficiency and truer-to-the-master reproduction?

Sony's new 4k consumer projector has a 4096 x 2160 chip, which is ~1.85:1. Do you think they'll move to that theatrical U.S. Academy ratio or go with the QFHD ratio of 3840 x 2160, which is HDTV's standard 1.78:1?

How about the audio codecs? Do you suppose they'll stick with Blu-ray's audio specs. or come up with some new lossless format like DTS Master Audio with 11.2 channels and 32 bit resolution (I'm exaggerating here, or am I??)? Will they drop the lossy audio codecs and uncompressed PCM altogether and stick with lossless only?

Will they finally dump interlaced video and add 25 (European HD), 30 (Todd-AO and the like), 48 and 60 frames per second (like Peter Jackson and James Cameron are wanting to shoot in) progressive video support besides just 2160p @ 24 fps? You would think they would look ahead to current and future trends of digital cinematography (The Hobbit, for instance, is being shot at 48 fps), but the industry isn't always as swift as one would hope.

Full 2160p 3D support?

Any provisions for 2.35:1/2.39:1 ratio and other wider than 1.85:1 ratio films to increase their resolution rather than wasting it on black bars?


If they piggyback on HDMI... it doesn't have the bandwidth currently to handle all this stuff and won't that then lower the higher quality one would expect from a more expensive 4k disc...? And besides don't most people (me included) think HDMI should be dumped and replaced with a far better (encrypted, of course) cable standard anyway? How about a professional grade digital interface... if it's good enough for Hollywood studios...

Hopefully, they will dump the Java software backbone for something more efficient (lean, mean, and quickly loaded) and make resume playback a required feature.

Cost increase and by how much over Blu-ray? Cost for players?

You know it's coming and a new HD medium was inevitable, so let's discuss and speculate!

Industry insiders are welcome to drop more hints too or even take suggestions!

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post #2 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 03:02 PM
 
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There is a similar thread in the other forum.
2013 from Sony including the playstation orbis.
Launching with Spider-man and the recent 4k restorations (loa kwai taxi driver evil dead etc).
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post #3 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

There is a similar thread in the other forum.
2013 from Sony including the playstation orbis.
Launching with Spider-man and the recent 4k restorations (loa kwai taxi driver evil dead etc).

Perhaps there needs to be a 4k resolution hardware/software subforum. It's probably about time, anyway.

You can't stop progress.

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post #4 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 03:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post


Perhaps there needs to be a 4k resolution hardware/software subforum. It's probably about time, anyway.

You can't stop progress.

Cart before the horse, let's see what CES brings.
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post #5 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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One thing about the discussion in the other thread, not that it isn't good, is that those subforums are not used as much.

I still think there needs to be some future trends forum at least that is tied to the previous video format's forum... some way to get more traffic and more talk generated.

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post #6 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 03:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

One thing about the discussion in the other thread, not that it isn't good, is that those subforums are not used as much.

I still think there needs to be some future trends forum at least that is tied to the previous video format's forum... some way to get more traffic and more talk generated.

I am not picking one over the other.
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post #7 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Will they finally dump interlaced video and add 25 (European HD), 30 (Todd-AO and the like), 48 and 60 frames per second (like Peter Jackson and James Cameron are wanting to shoot in) progressive video support besides just 2160p @ 24 fps? You would think they would look ahead to current and future trends of digital cinematography (The Hobbit, for instants, is being shot at 48 fps), but the industry isn't always as swift as one would hope.

If there isn't some kind of home video format that at least supports 30p by the time Cameron gets around to making the Avatar sequels, he won't be able to shoot them in 60p and will need to settle on 48. There isn't even a bd player right now that supports anything higher than 24 at full 1080p. Will these current players be firmware-updatable in the future???

I can't help but wonder if part of the reason Cameron is waiting until circa 2015 is because current bd tech doesn't support 60p or 30p. Maybe he's hoping the next format will be out by then.

Encoding movies to disc at their exact framerate would sure be nice. I don't think they'd need to worry about 23.976 by the time this new format came out. My friend still has a 60" 1080i tv that he watches blu-rays on over component, but just about anyone buying into a 4K format would have an hdtv new enough to support 24.000p.

Actually, according to this article, the Hobbit is being shot at 47.96 fps, probably because 1) there are that many more digital projectors out there capable of displaying this exact framerate and 2) it'll be at its exact framerate on blu-ray.

I guess the 24p celluloid projectors will be speeding it up, technically .....
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post #8 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fang Zei View Post


Actually, according to this article, the Hobbit is being shot at 47.96 fps, probably because 1) there are that many more digital projectors out there capable of displaying this exact framerate and 2) it'll be at its exact framerate on blu-ray.

I guess the 24p celluloid projectors will be speeding it up, technically .....

Yeah, I didn't use the standard video frame rates in my thread opener for simplicity's sake, though I'd assume they'd go with video compatible rates like with Blu-ray and previous home video formats. Since a digital projection system works off video compatible frame rates and not precise rates like film and the only way you can see The Hobbit at 47.96 fps is at a digitally equipped cinema, I can see why Jackson set the RED to this video friendly frame rate (the RED camera lets you set it for film or video rate modes).

Thanks for contributing to the thread, Fang Zei!

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post #9 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 04:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fang Zei View Post


If there isn't some kind of home video format that at least supports 30p by the time Cameron gets around to making the Avatar sequels, he won't be able to shoot them in 60p and will need to settle on 48. There isn't even a bd player right now that supports anything higher than 24 at full 1080p. Will these current players be firmware-updatable in the future???

I can't help but wonder if part of the reason Cameron is waiting until circa 2015 is because current bd tech doesn't support 60p or 30p. Maybe he's hoping the next format will be out by then.

Encoding movies to disc at their exact framerate would sure be nice. I don't think they'd need to worry about 23.976 by the time this new format came out. My friend still has a 60" 1080i tv that he watches blu-rays on over component, but just about anyone buying into a 4K format would have an hdtv new enough to support 24.000p.

Actually, according to this article, the Hobbit is being shot at 47.96 fps, probably because 1) there are that many more digital projectors out there capable of displaying this exact framerate and 2) it'll be at its exact framerate on blu-ray.

I guess the 24p celluloid projectors will be speeding it up, technically .....

It really needs to support 60p in 3D
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post #10 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

It really needs to support 60p in 3D

Ditto! Full 2160p 3D at up to 60 fps too just so we cover all the bases.

I can definitely see that HDMI will need to be phased out with this new format. As Jack Nicholson, says: it can't handle the truth!

How about fiber based, high-bandwidth SDI that can handle ultra-high resolution specs. like they use in professional Hollywood and broadcast production equipment?

Good riddance to HDMI and all the headaches that go with it!

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post #11 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 05:33 PM
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It is sad that you can't even rent Blu-rays anymore with Blockbuster, Rogers, and independent video stores disappearing. Fact is, most people are happy with bit-rate starved online streaming content. The vast majority are not even using their 1080p sets to their fullest. 4K is likely to stay as a niche product, like high rez music.

And I have no intentions of re-buying BRs to go thru the cycle all over again.
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post #12 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 05:46 PM
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4K won't take. It just won't. Writing about it is pointless. 1920x1080p at 24-120hz is where all input mediums will be capped at for at least a decade.

We will have 4k monitors and cables, but 1080p Blu Ray will be the final format for intended for physical consumer delivery. You may see some token 4k discs bundled with hardware but it'll be like the MUSE Vision or Squeeze Laserdisc titles. Just a promotional fling to be abandoned.

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post #13 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 05:58 PM
 
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4K won't take. It just won't. Writing about it is pointless. 1920x1080p at 24-120hz is where all input mediums will be capped at for at least a decade.

We will have 4k monitors and cables, but 1080p Blu Ray will be the final format for intended for physical consumer delivery. You may see some token 4k discs bundled with hardware but it'll be like the MUSE Vision or Squeeze Laserdisc titles. Just a promotional fling to be abandoned.

Fine by me, I miss elitist formats
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post #14 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 06:20 PM
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I still hope they release The Hobbit in 4K & 48fps somehow (unlikely i know...), that would be awesome
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post #15 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang Zei View Post

Actually, according to this article, the Hobbit is being shot at 47.96 fps, probably because 1) there are that many more digital projectors out there capable of displaying this exact framerate and 2) it'll be at its exact framerate on blu-ray.

I was going to say that Blu-ray doesn't support 48fps, but I wonder... is it possible to author a 2D movie at 48fps onto a "no glasses required" Blu-ray 3D by just splitting frames between the AVC and MVC streams?


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post #16 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 06:37 PM
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I am interested in 4K as well as 48-60fps but my question is this: with 1080p can we see a benefit to 48fps-60fps (is there a visual improvement)? If so that might be a start then 4K.
Also, can 1080p 48fps-60fps be put on a bluray?
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post #17 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

I am interested in 4K as well as 48-60fps but my question is this: with 1080p can we see a benefit to 48fps-60fps (is there a visual improvement)? If so that might be a start then 4K.
Also, can 1080p 48fps-60fps be put on a bluray?

There would be a small perceived visual improvement and greater depth of field, besides smoother motion and far, far less judder compared to the traditional 24 fps. Just look at Oklahoma! in Todd-AO at 30 fps on plain vanilla DVD. Now they are doing 48 fps and Cameron, again, wants to do 60 fps.

However, since you have to change Blu-ray's specs., up the bitrate and storage capacity, and you need new players, etc. you might as well have at least double the resolution of Blu-ray, up the color to 12 bit and a greater than Rec. 709 gamut, and put all on a higher capacity disc while you're at it.

I'd imagine 4k @ 60 fps would be breathtaking on a projection system.

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post #18 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
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some new lossless format like DTS Master Audio with 11.2 channels and 32 bit resolution

Wasting ANY energy on something as ludicrous as 32 bit audio (193 dB) would be idiotic. You can't even get 20 bit dynamic range in the home. Stop wasting time on such nonsense.
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post #19 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 07:53 PM
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I would think that Mitsubishi dlp rptvs could capitalize on the 4k resolution if they applied it to their rptvs.
On that note, anyone hear of a front projector that is dlp and will do 4k for the home theater or one coming this year?
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post #20 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Wasting ANY energy on something as ludicrous as 32 bit audio (193 dB) would be idiotic. You can't even get 20 bit dynamic range in the home. Stop wasting time on such nonsense.

I was exaggerating on the hypothetical DTS specs... who knows what, if anything, they'll add or subtract in regards to the new format.

Maybe Dolby or DTS has something up their sleave, maybe the studios want to stay with Dolby and DTS lossless specs. as is?

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post #21 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 08:07 PM
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The newest version of HDMI cables cannot handle 4K (non-stereovision) video?
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post #22 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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The newest version of HDMI cables cannot handle 4K (non-stereovision) video?

Not at the new increased frame rates digital cinematography is taking us.

No full 4k 3D either.

HDMI has run out of steam in its current form. I say bury it.

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post #23 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 08:51 PM
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Not at the new increased frame rates digital cinematography is taking us.

Increased rate? So what? I meant for current 24fps of film. Right now blu-ray cannot do the stereovision bandwidth theaters have been doing for years.
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post #24 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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HDMI can do the QFHD format @ 24 fps... that's it as of now.

The Hobbit, as has been mentioned is one of the first to up the frame rate to 48 fps... some filmmakers want to go higher like up to 60 fps.

The current HDMI cable specs., if they can even be updated to support all this stuff, will ham string any new 4k format.

That's one reason professional A/V equipment rarely uses HDMI. They have other, better cable interfaces. So, why not encrypt them (to make Hollywood happy) and then apply them to new consumer gear?

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post #25 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 09:09 PM
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HDMI has run out of steam in its current form.

Does that mean you're pleased HDMI org said at CES 2012 (link) their "target release date of the next version of the HDMI specification is the second half of 2012"?

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post #26 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 09:37 PM
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I was going to say that Blu-ray doesn't support 48fps, but I wonder... is it possible to author a 2D movie at 48fps onto a "no glasses required" Blu-ray 3D by just splitting frames between the AVC and MVC streams?

Sorry, I should've specified that I was talking about after they halve the framerate to 23.976. Didn't mean to cause confusion.
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post #27 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Does that mean you're pleased HDMI org said at CES 2012 (link) their "target release date of the next version of the HDMI specification is the second half of 2012"?


I just don't like the fact that HDMI has such a problem with long cable distances, making it extremely frustrating for whole house usage... plus their connector is terrible.

I'm sure they're trying to sqeeze every bit they can out of this cable format they can due to 4k products being released soon. HDMI.org wants those royalty and licensing fee checks to keep coming in.

However, I wonder if the lengths will have to keep getting shorter and shorter the more bandwidth they try to pipe through? 1080p @ 60 fps is already a struggle for HDMI cables at certain lengths that some people need for their projector setups.

I still believe it's time to go to a more professional and robust cable interface.

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post #28 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

4K won't take. It just won't. Writing about it is pointless. 1920x1080p at 24-120hz is where all input mediums will be capped at for at least a decade.

We will have 4k monitors and cables, but 1080p Blu Ray will be the final format for intended for physical consumer delivery. You may see some token 4k discs bundled with hardware but it'll be like the MUSE Vision or Squeeze Laserdisc titles. Just a promotional fling to be abandoned.

Well Sony at least seems pretty invested in 4k discs. Sony insider Penton-man on the blu-ray forums is all but stating they're definitely going to happen - maybe even starting with the Spider-man reboot.

Will it be a brand-new format? No, I think that'd be suicide. Blu-ray is still finding its footing to some degree in terms of market penetration, and DVD will be around for a long time yet. But I can easily see it being an optional extension of Blu-ray - the way Blu-ray 3D was an optional extension of the format.

I can see it now - Blu-ray 4K combo packs. 4k disc, regular 1080p disc, DVD, digital copy, etc.
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post #29 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Neo_Reloaded View Post

Well Sony at least seems pretty invested in 4k discs. Sony insider Penton-man on the blu-ray forums is all but stating they're definitely going to happen - maybe even starting with the Spider-man reboot.

Will it be a brand-new format? No, I think that'd be suicide. Blu-ray is still finding its footing to some degree in terms of market penetration, and DVD will be around for a long time yet. But I can easily see it being an optional extension of Blu-ray - the way Blu-ray 3D was an optional extension of the format.

I can see it now - Blu-ray 4K combo packs. 4k disc, regular 1080p disc, DVD, digital copy, etc.

That would be a mistake to try and shoe-horn in a make-shift 4k Blu-ray format within the current structure and limited bitrate. That really would be suicide.

If new players and TV's are needed anyway... why not take a fresh stab at it with a new, efficient wavlet codec, 12 bit color, etc.? There are rough software interface edges with Blu-ray they could smooth over with a brand new 4k disc format that has much higher capacity and bandwidth.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #30 of 110 Old 04-01-2012, 10:31 PM
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I think it's a really dumb idea at this point in time. I don't think the technology is there, and I don't think the market is there.
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