48 FPS on bluray - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 04-25-2012, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok I just read a review about SOME of the Hobbit footage at www.aintitcool.com and was wondering this can BR do 48 fps? I guess with that asked it must also be asked are there any displays that can display it properly?
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post #2 of 17 Old 04-25-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Ok I just read a review about SOME of the Hobbit footage at www.aintitcool.com and was wondering this can BR do 48 fps? I guess with that asked it must also be asked are there any displays that can display it properly?

For the first part of your question, no, not currently, though it can do 50/60 fps at 720p.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1328203
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post #3 of 17 Old 04-25-2012, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Ok I just read a review about SOME of the Hobbit footage at www.aintitcool.com and was wondering this can BR do 48 fps? I guess with that asked it must also be asked are there any displays that can display it properly?

Many CRT projectors can display it properly.

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post #4 of 17 Old 04-25-2012, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

Many CRT projectors can display it properly.

Can these receive a 3D, full HD (per eye), 48 fps per eye signal via HDMI and display it properly? Or 2D 48 fps full HD via HDMI?
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post #5 of 17 Old 04-26-2012, 01:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Ok I just read a review about SOME of the Hobbit footage at www.aintitcool.com and was wondering this can BR do 48 fps? I guess with that asked it must also be asked are there any displays that can display it properly?

The footage shown at CinemaCon for THE HOBBITT was 48 FPS 3D. No - BR cannot handle that format at this time. Nor are there any consumer displays that can either.
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post #6 of 17 Old 02-17-2013, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post


The footage shown at CinemaCon for THE HOBBITT was 48 FPS 3D. No - BR cannot handle that format at this time. Nor are there any consumer displays that can either.

Why is that? Any 60hz display has no trouble displaying every frame of a 60 fps video game. If I record a 60 fps video on my digital camera and download it to my PC, I can display it in 60 fps on any HDTV or LCD monitor.
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post #7 of 17 Old 02-23-2013, 06:19 PM
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The reason 48 fps 3D, or 2D for that matter, is a no go for CE equipment is that nobody planned for it. There are problems at every step in the chain from source to display. There is no BD format for it, current BD players wouldn't recognize it if there were, HDMI doesn't have tokens for 48 fps content (although it could transmit content with the appropriate vsync), and the displays don't know how to convert it to their native frame rate. There is also the problem that 48 fps 3D requires a bit rate that is higher than CE products have been able to handle until recently. There are still a lot of products out there with chipsets that can just handle 1080p60 2D.
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post #8 of 17 Old 07-20-2013, 04:06 AM
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well it's possible even if it's not official BD specification. Make simply encoding in 3D (L at 24Hz and R at 24 Hz) with H264 MVC coding mode and don't use 3D glasses: you have movie in 1080p48 mode with that. It's a hack but it's really simple and functional hack. BD specification and all actual 3D BD hard player are ready for 1080p60 with really simple modification ... ;-)
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post #9 of 17 Old 07-20-2013, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiaque View Post

well it's possible even if it's not official BD specification. Make simply encoding in 3D (L at 24Hz and R at 24 Hz) with H264 MVC coding mode and don't use 3D glasses: you have movie in 1080p48 mode with that. It's a hack but it's really simple and functional hack.
1) It wouldn't work for polarized 3D TVs
2) It wouldn't work for shutter glasses 3D TVs because with a 24 fps 3D encode you aren't showing each source frame just once on the TV. It would keep skipping back frames.
3) Even if it did work (which it won't), it wouldn't give you 3D in 48 fps, which the Hobbit was shot in.

It would work if each frame from the 3D was only shown once (so 120 fps on a shutter-glasses TV might be possible if they encoded at 720p60?)

Though 48 fps is most likely a temporary thing before we have 60 fps/higher.
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post #10 of 17 Old 07-20-2013, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

1) It wouldn't work for polarized 3D TVs

No, polarised light is really not a probleme here. Polarised light is transparent for eyes if you don't use polarised filter.

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2) It wouldn't work for shutter glasses 3D TVs because with a 24 fps 3D encode you aren't showing each source frame just once on the TV. It would keep skipping back frames.

No, it's false. There are not problem with actual passive or active 3D. The only problem could be anaglyph 3D but bluray don't use this old 3D technology.


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3) Even if it did work (which it won't), it wouldn't give you 3D in 48 fps, which the Hobbit was shot in.

Yes, 48 Hz in 3D mean encoding at 96Hz (L+R). Anyway the title is "48 fps on bluray". And you can make that today, with little hack, but you can (for 1080p ... no problem with 720p60)
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post #11 of 17 Old 07-20-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Zodiaque View Post

No, polarised light is really not a probleme here. Polarised light is transparent for eyes if you don't use polarised filter.

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2) It wouldn't work for shutter glasses 3D TVs because with a 24 fps 3D encode you aren't showing each source frame just once on the TV. It would keep skipping back frames.

No, it's false. There are not problem with actual passive or active 3D. The only problem could be anaglyph 3D but bluray don't use this old 3D technology.
I wasn't talking about polarized light I was talking about those types of displays - the passive displays - they are always displaying the 2 images as far as I know (left+right).
ie on a passive display in 3D mode half the lines/pixels are always displaying the left eye image, and the other half always displaying the right eye ones.
Since they don't flick between the two (unlike active) it won't work for 48 fps 2D.

For active (shutter glasses), like I said it wouldn't work for 48 fps 2D because they output at something like 120Hz (60 images per eye) not 48 Hz..

So the sources images for each eye would be shown multiple times. eg. L1, R1, L1 again, R1 again, before moving to the next source frame.

So if you wanted 48 fps of normal 2D and encoded it as 3D 24 fps, it would keep going back when shown on the active 120Hz display:
eg. 1,2,1,2....3,4,3,4, etc.

If you don't believe me, you can try it. Encode 48 fps 2D video (with a frame counter on screen) into a stereoscopic 3D 24 fps video, and display it on an active display in 3D mode. Record it on a high frame rate camera/camcorder and see what the frame counter shows as well the motion in the video.

Like I said, it should work for 120 fps 2D content though, if you encoded it at 720p60 in 3D, and use an active 3D display which outputs at 120Hz (60 images per eye).
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post #12 of 17 Old 07-21-2013, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

I wasn't talking about polarized light I was talking about those types of displays - the passive displays - they are always displaying the 2 images as far as I know (left+right).
ie on a passive display in 3D mode half the lines/pixels are always displaying the left eye image, and the other half always displaying the right eye ones.
Since they don't flick between the two (unlike active) it won't work for 48 fps 2D.

For active (shutter glasses), like I said it wouldn't work for 48 fps 2D because they output at something like 120Hz (60 images per eye) not 48 Hz..

So the sources images for each eye would be shown multiple times. eg. L1, R1, L1 again, R1 again, before moving to the next source frame.

So if you wanted 48 fps of normal 2D and encoded it as 3D 24 fps, it would keep going back when shown on the active 120Hz display:
eg. 1,2,1,2....3,4,3,4, etc.

If you don't believe me, you can try it. Encode 48 fps 2D video (with a frame counter on screen) into a stereoscopic 3D 24 fps video, and display it on an active display in 3D mode. Record it on a high frame rate camera/camcorder and see what the frame counter shows as well the motion in the video.

Like I said, it should work for 120 fps 2D content though, if you encoded it at 720p60 in 3D, and use an active 3D display which outputs at 120Hz (60 images per eye).

Well I alraedy try and it's work perfectly ... ;-)
And that work already for you. Just try 3D movie and see the result in no-3D part without glasses ... ;-)

1) There are many frequency output technology and 120 Hz output work for 24 Hz or 48 Hz movie ... ;-)
48 Hz 2D movie will have simply 3:2 pulldown for 120 Hz output. Anyway you have exactly the same problem for 24Hz 3D movie for 120 Hz output.

2) H264 MVC encoding is simply L + R arlernative frame. If you want make H264 encoding at 48 fps with H264 MVC, you must simply have pair frame in L chanel and impair frame in R chanel.
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post #13 of 17 Old 07-21-2013, 04:46 AM
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My 120Hz 3D passive LCD managed to display the 48Hz 3D Hobbit. Not directly from bluray of course, interpolated and fed as OU...
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post #14 of 17 Old 07-21-2013, 07:14 AM
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If you don't believe me, you can try it. Encode 48 fps 2D video (with a frame counter on screen) into a stereoscopic 3D 24 fps video, and display it on an active display in 3D mode. Record it on a high frame rate camera/camcorder and see what the frame counter shows as well the motion in the video.
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Originally Posted by Zodiaque View Post

Well I alraedy try and it's work perfectly ... ;-)
So do you have a link to the clip - or post it here of the 48 fps 2D video playing on the TV in slow motion, from a 24 fps 3D video, with the frame counter like I suggested?

What programs/process did you use to create the test? Did you test it on passive as well as active 3D TVs? Which 3DTVs? How did you go about converting the 47.952 fps 2D video with frame counter) to a 3D 23.976 one (which will still display as if it was a 47.952 fps 2D video)?
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post #15 of 17 Old 07-27-2013, 04:53 AM
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I believe Zodiaque is right, with most 3DTVs it does make sense that a hack of the 3D BD spec should allow 2D 48fps playback and there are statements that it has been tested to work. No, for most sets it likely won't be at an exact multiple of 48hz, but many people lived with 24p @ 60hz for a long time without ill effect. I don't see the barrier.

3D @ 48fps is a different story, though, that you can't do.
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post #16 of 17 Old 07-27-2013, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

I believe Zodiaque is right, with most 3DTVs it does make sense that a hack of the 3D BD spec should allow 2D 48fps playback and there are statements that it has been tested to work. No, for most sets it likely won't be at an exact multiple of 48hz, but many people lived with 24p @ 60hz for a long time without ill effect. I don't see the barrier.
Any links to the evidence of this working on most 3DTVs?
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post #17 of 17 Old 07-27-2013, 06:43 AM
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Well,
We have two posters that have tried it successfully already, one with an active and one with a passive set.

Most 3DTVs work by alternating successive left and right eye images on the screen in rapid succession, thus if these were manipulated to actually be plain successive single images through the encoding in most cases there would be no barrier for it not to work.

Plasma is probably the ideal tv tech to experiment with this on.

The only limitations could be:
* With DLP 3D tech you would not be seeing full 1080p 48fps, but half this resolution. This is not really noticeable for DLP 3D, but should be for 2D.
* A 3DTV which has distracting glasses signaling embedded into the picture information which cannot be removed (such as DLP Link flashes on some older DLP 3DTVs, newer ones you can remove it if you wish)
* LCD tech (both LED and FL) probably does not have the motion resolution to do this justice
* MVC I believe was designed specifically for 3D, so you might not get the optimal encoding quality using this hack compared to an encoder designed for 48fps 2d. i.e. when the 'pair' of L+R frames is a transition to completely different scene of the movie will likely suffer significantly in quality.
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