Blu-ray 4K Using HEVC - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 12-05-2012, 01:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you think the blu-ray consortium is working on 4K for blu-ray with HEVC (High Efficiency Video Codec)?

With HEVC, they may not need to go to Triple or Quad layer blu-ray discs.

Let's hope that they allow for 4K @ 48p/50p/60p, to allow for the future high frame rates, and not cripple it to the lower frame rates like 24p/25p/30p.

A next generation audio codec like DTS-MDA (Multi Dimensional Audio) or Dolby Atmos would go nicely, too.

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post #2 of 18 Old 12-05-2012, 01:10 PM
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They are starting to think whether they should do anything about 4K or not. Assuming they do, then they have to decide how. The wind is not blowing in favor of BDA setting next generation formats. They may still do it but the level of studio support is not where it used to be when the original format was launched. Time has moved on, interest is mostly elsewhere, away from optical formats and BDA being the controlling entity. Not saying it won't happen. But simply giving a weather report on how the wind is blowing smile.gif.

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post #3 of 18 Old 12-05-2012, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post

Do you think the blu-ray consortium is working on 4K for blu-ray with HEVC (High Efficiency Video Codec)?

Yes they are, see Richard's post here. In addition to 4K it is hoped they will use 10 bit video. IMO you should disregard the Blu-ray detractors here. Some things seem to never change!!
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post #4 of 18 Old 12-05-2012, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post

Do you think the blu-ray consortium is working on 4K for blu-ray with HEVC (High Efficiency Video Codec)?
I have no doubt that we will eventually see a 4K version of Blu-ray and a task force was recently announced by the BDA to extend the Blu-ray Disc format. For reference the 3D task force for Blu-ray was announced in May 2009 and the specification for Blu-ray 3D was released in December 2009. In terms of what the 4K version of Blu-ray will support I think it will support HEVC, there is a good chance it will support 10-bit video (using the Main 10 profile of HEVC), there is some chance it will support 4K at 48/50/60 fps, and there is a very small chance it will support more than two layer discs.
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post #5 of 18 Old 12-06-2012, 11:06 AM
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Let's hope that they allow for 4K @ 48p/50p/60p, to allow for the future high frame rates, and not cripple it to the lower frame rates like 24p/25p/30p.
I agree.

Though I have doubts they will, even though the TV broadcast formats for 3840x2160 are at 60 fps (or more?). Their task force is looking at high frame rates, 4K and higher colour resolution, though I wouldn't be surprised if the high frame rate version of Blu-ray (ie. >=48 fps) was at no higher than 1920x1080. Though since RedRay supports "4K 3D at 48 or 60fps", maybe that could help them make sure that their standard isn't a lot worse than RedRay in terms of video formats supported.
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With HEVC, they may not need to go to Triple or Quad layer blu-ray discs.
Even if they go with HEVC, I bet quality will suffer if they stick to discs with 50GB max.
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post #6 of 18 Old 12-10-2012, 02:16 PM
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Wouldn't BDXL be possible? It's not a big increase in size- ~66gb IIRC but it's better than being stuck at 50.
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post #7 of 18 Old 12-11-2012, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by h0mi View Post

Wouldn't BDXL be possible? It's not a big increase in size- ~66gb IIRC but it's better than being stuck at 50.
The problem is they're formats you write to instead of being stamped like commercial discs sold today, so it would probably take a lot longer to produce with films on than a stamped disc.
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post #8 of 18 Old 12-11-2012, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

The problem is they're formats you write to instead of being stamped like commercial discs sold today, so it would probably take a lot longer to produce with films on than a stamped disc.

IMO, BDXL is a non-starter for UHDTV. For a 66GB UHDTV title one would think they would simply use two disc.
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post #9 of 18 Old 12-11-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

IMO, BDXL is a non-starter for UHDTV. For a 66GB UHDTV title one would think they would simply use two disc.
I'd rather they used stamped discs (ie. not BDXL) that have more layers, and probably more capacity per layer, eg. 100GB discs. They already use multiple discs, eg. for 3D, special features etc. I think the discs should have enough capacity for a high quality version of the film without artefacts, so that a film/TV programme doesn't need to be split across discs, even if it's a long film/programme, no matter if it is in 3d/high frame rate or anything else.
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post #10 of 18 Old 12-11-2012, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

The problem is they're formats you write to instead of being stamped like commercial discs sold today, so it would probably take a lot longer to produce with films on than a stamped disc.

so bdxl is limited just to burning, its not possible to stamp a bdxl disc. that's very strange to me.
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post #11 of 18 Old 12-12-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by h0mi View Post

so bdxl is limited just to burning, its not possible to stamp a bdxl disc. that's very strange to me.
Maybe I'm wrong. See links below. They mention triple layer (100GB) and quad (128GB) as both being called BDXL.
I haven't read any official document saying they can't be stamped (though I'm sure people have said something like that on this board before), but it might just be that the current version of BDXL (as released a couple of years ago) was intended for writing to with drives (eg. for data archiving, broadcasting etc.) rather than through stamping.

Perhaps in future (eg. for a 4K pre-recorded Blu-ray film format) they could use stamping to create these discs?

Have a look at these:
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Downloadablefile/BDXL-IH-BD-Release-draft-3-%28mwh%29-16971.pdf
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Downloadablefile/general_bluraydiscformat-15263.pdf
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post #12 of 18 Old 01-16-2013, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h0mi View Post

so bdxl is limited just to burning, its not possible to stamp a bdxl disc. that's very strange to me.

For the moment BDXL is only available as a burning format, it does not mean it can't be stamped which I'm sure has been done in R&D departments as well as other blu ray type disc's with more than 128 gb.
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post #13 of 18 Old 01-16-2013, 06:58 PM
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HEVC is expected to be ratified as a international standard Q1 of this year 2013. I was hoping it would be January 2013, still could happen:)
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post #14 of 18 Old 01-19-2013, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by img eL View Post

HEVC is expected to be ratified as a international standard Q1 of this year 2013. I was hoping it would be January 2013, still could happen:)
The draft for the first version of HEVC will be finished this month but the ITU and MPEG organizations will look the draft over and possibly make some final changes to it before they approve it. As such it will be a while longer before the HEVC draft gets approved.
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post #15 of 18 Old 01-19-2013, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

The draft for the first version of HEVC will be finished this month but the ITU and MPEG organizations will look the draft over and possibly make some final changes to it before they approve it. As such it will be a while longer before the HEVC draft gets approved.

MPEG meets all next week Jan. 21-25 so will see what comes out of those meetings
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post #16 of 18 Old 02-05-2013, 09:22 PM
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From the Digital Bits:
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First, it looks like we’re finally going to get a look at Sony’s big plan to deliver 4K content to their 4K displays later this month… and it’s looking very much like that plan involves the PlayStation 4. Numerous sources are now saying that Sony is expected to officially unveil the PS4 at a mysterious “PlayStation Meeting” press event on 2/20. Sources are reporting that the code name for the system is “Orbis” and that Ultra HD streaming content and videogames will be a significant part of Sony’s plan for the device. More here and here at arstechnica.com, and here’s Sony’s official tease video for the event.


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post #17 of 18 Old 02-08-2013, 12:35 PM
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PS4K !!!! biggrin.gif
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post #18 of 18 Old 12-24-2013, 06:59 PM
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I think it's the next major update to blu-ray spec that we can expect. In my opinion, more important than 4K support is full adoption of Rec. 2020 specification, which defines UHDTV, and upgrades video encoding to 10-bit (and 12-bit) with a new colorspace closer to that of digital cinema, encoding in both AVC and HEVC, and a finer gamma correction (or even a linear transfer function, similar to raw data). To accomplish this, the most important thing to assure quality is bandwith. Digital Cinema today is still 2K, which is almost FullHD, and images are stellar, fill big screens, yet nobody complains. I don't think we need 4K right now at home. Color resolution is more important. Nowadays blu-ray is 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr encoded in 16-235 luma range and 16-240 chroma, which is less gradation than sRGB JPEG files allow. We desperately need 10-bit (deep color) at least to overcome this limitation.

The problem is backwards compatibility. We would need to upgrade our blu-ray players to support the new format and this takes years. With 4k mastered blu-rays there is margin to improve quality, and recent players do internal high-bit processing and improve the signal to reduce banding. With good compression, careful grading and enough bandwidth images still look great in 8-bit.
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