choosing between 1080i and 1080p for recording and disc burning - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 01-21-2013, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Reading many articles regarding this, still do not understand what is my HD best modes to choose providing best quality with best existing devices compatibility. What I have to record and play:

- HD video camera with 3 2 modes: 1080i 30fps, 1080p 30fps and 1080p/60fps
- fast modern PC with blu-ray writer to edit and record videos
- 1080p big flat screen TVs NTSC standard
- blu-ray players attached to TVs capable to play full hd 30fps


Which modes would you recommend for recording and disc burning and why?

Currently I've been using 1080p 30fps for recoding, and 1080i 30fps for burning blu-ray disc.

Thanks
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post #2 of 10 Old 01-22-2013, 03:50 AM
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1080p30 recording = quite juddery/un-smooth motion. Not as unsmooth motion as 24 fps but won't be as smooth as the others
1080/60i or 1080p60 recording = smooth motion.

If you wanted the most "classic film look" go for 1080p30 (of the 3, closest to 24 fps). For smooth, realistic motion, I'd go for either 1080/60i or 1080/60p.

1080/60i vs 1080/60p

I'd think the 1080/60p recording would be a higher bitrate (so would use more disc space). A 1080p60 recording, assuming the bitrate was high enough, should in theory be the best/most accurate. Does your software support 1080p60? You can get Blu-ray players that play 1080p60 files but 1080p60 is not part of the standard Blu-ray specs. But there's a possibility they might add it at some point in the future, but until then, if you didn't have a player that could play 1080p60 files or you wanted to create it as a standard Blu-ray, you'd have to down-convert it eg. to 1080/60i (or 720p60). Would it be worse quality going from the 1080p60 recorded by the camera to 1080/60i than by recording in 1080/60i in the first place? One thing is that progressive footage, like 1080p60 should be better (not in terms of performance) to work with (eg. if you were adding certain effects to it) . I think the best thing is to try each, and see which you think is best. But lets say the camera's 1080p60 converted to 1080/60i looked no worse than from the cameras 1080/60i option, I'd go for 1080p60 recording, even if you were, for now, going to encode it as 1080/60i, since you could have a higher quality version in 1080p60 for when either the standard specs change or for playing in a 1080p60 capable player or a PC etc.
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post #3 of 10 Old 01-22-2013, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Joe, thank you for your reply, 60 fps for sure provides smoother picture than 30 fps. And I do not even care about disc space, rather about current blu-ray's ability to run such discs. You suggests to convert 1080/60p to 1080/60i for blu-ray players compatibility. Do you mean 1080 interlaced 60 fps is what modern players should provide support for? Tell me please what happened when I record on 60p and convert it with software into 60i: does it cut half of my video quality? Like every second line of every frame removed, right?

Same question about converting 30p to 30i while blu-ray burning: does it reduce video quality? I was wrong saying my camera had 3 video modes to record, it actually supports only progressive mode for recording, the only option to choose I have is amount of fps: 30 or 60 (please see me corrected post above). So what I currently have been doing is recording all my video in 1080/30p, than during import it onto computer memory for editing I'm asked if I need it imported as interlaced or progressive, I choose interlaced 30fps. Than same question during burning, I set it up to be 1080/30i (CyberLink PowerDirector 10). So I wonder if the video quality I initially recording differs from what I watch on tv having this process? Please advise. Thank you
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post #4 of 10 Old 01-22-2013, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MYV View Post

Joe, thank you for your reply, 60 fps for sure provides smoother picture than 30 fps. And I do not even care about disc space, rather about current blu-ray's ability to run such discs. You suggests to convert 1080/60p to 1080/60i for blu-ray players compatibility. Do you mean 1080 interlaced 60 fps is what modern players should provide support for?
Yes, all Blu-ray players support 1080/60i as part of the standard Blu-ray specs. Some also support playing 1080p60 AVCHD video files (though 1080p60 isn't part of the standard Blu-ray specs).
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Tell me please what happened when I record on 60p and convert it with software into 60i: does it cut half of my video quality? Like every second line of every frame removed, right?
Yes, you'd end up with 60 fields per second instead of 60 frames per second and it would have with half the lines. How much visible quality loss there was it would depend.
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Same question about converting 30p to 30i while blu-ray burning: does it reduce video quality?
There isn't a 30i so I assume you mean 60i (60 interlaced fields per second). 60i should be able to store 30p footage. In theory, the only quality loss should be from recompression. You shouldn't be dropping any lines.
Quote:
I was wrong saying my camera had 3 video modes to record, it actually supports only progressive mode for recording, the only option to choose I have is amount of fps: 30 or 60 (please see me corrected post above). So what I currently have been doing is recording all my video in 1080/30p, than during import it onto computer memory for editing I'm asked if I need it imported as interlaced or progressive, I choose interlaced 30fps.
If it really is recording 30 progressive frames per second, I don't see why, on import, you tell it to interpret it as interlaced footage. Wouldn't you only tell it to interpret it as interlaced if it was recorded as interlaced?
Quote:
Than same question during burning, I set it up to be 1080/30i (CyberLink PowerDirector 10). So I wonder if the video quality I initially recording differs from what I watch on tv having this process? Please advise. Thank you
You mean watching the finished encode? Recompressing the video could reduce the quality from the original.
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post #5 of 10 Old 01-22-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

If it really is recording 30 progressive frames per second, I don't see why, on import, you tell it to interpret it as interlaced footage. Wouldn't you only tell it to interpret it as interlaced if it was recorded as interlaced?

Because I was told interlaced mode provides me more smoother picture. Hope you are right when talking about actual 60i
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

You mean watching the finished encode? Recompressing the video could reduce the quality from the original.

Originally I record in 1080/30p AVCHD format, then I choose H.264 when I burning Blu-Ray. As I know there should not be any perceivable quality loss in AVCHD->H.264 conversion, my only concern was whether or not it removes any second line. Looks like it actually does not, as file sizes of my original raw AVCHD video and Blu-Ray disc produced are almost the same which let me believe it is actually 1080/60i like you just told. Thanks
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post #6 of 10 Old 01-22-2013, 05:16 PM
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It's not as complicated as you make it. AVC is H.264 so there should be no conversion. AVCHD is how it's authored, not a different file encoding format.

30p is equivalent to 60i if done properly, just as 25p to 50i in 50Hz "PAL" countries. Splitting a frame into two fields is straight forward, of course you lose half the lines in each split field but you lose nothing.

What's best depends on your needs, the nature of the footage (fast motion?), archive requirement and channel of distribution.
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post #7 of 10 Old 01-22-2013, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

30p is equivalent to 60i if done properly
How can I check if it is done properly in my case? Can I check my Blu-ray disc is burned in 1080p 60i format?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

What's best depends on your needs, the nature of the footage (fast motion?), archive requirement and channel of distribution.

it is family video, usually kids playing, running, there are some fast motion sometimes, but not type of car racing. I'm not going to do any archives, I just burn several blu-ray discs per single movie and hand them out to my friends and relatives.
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post #8 of 10 Old 01-23-2013, 01:08 AM
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If you shoot at 1080p30 you can only author the BD in 1080i60 and some players have display to tell you it is 1080i60 on the disc. Your TV probably also can tell you what's coming in. This part is easy. The tricky part is during playback in how the original frames are reconstructed from the fields. It used to be a problem with DVD players and early HDTVs in the past. If not done properly there will be artefacts and loss of resolution. It's less of a problem nowadays. If you don't see anything untoward it's probably OK. If you need to check your playback chain's performance there are test discs with patterns to bring out these artefacts.

If you shoot at 1080p60 and author BD as 1080i60 (if that's what you mean by '1080p 60i'), you are losing information. Whether you notice any difference or any artefacts is another matter. Modern chips with motion adaptive de-interlacing usually give good results in 60p but there's no guarantee.

Ideally you would shoot at 1080i60 natively and that goes straight onto BD to keep the workflow as simple as possible but your camcorder can't. Native 60i records more temporal info than 30p turned into 60i later because each field in native 60i has moved along in time by 1/60s.

You could shoot at 1080p60 and author 1080p60 AVCHDs on DVDs but you need to make sure all your audience can play these themselves. For family video without much fast motion 60p is probably overkill but then DVD-Rs are so cheap nowadays.
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post #9 of 10 Old 12-11-2013, 06:16 PM
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I just got a Nikon D5300.

The 1080P 60 files from the camera are stunning.

When converted to 60i they are roughly "half as good".

I think the 1080P 30 files converted to 60i are better.

 

What I want to do is take my 1080P 60 files and burn them to BlueRay at 1080P 60

 

If I understand correctly they must be converted to AVC.264 which is AVCHD?

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post #10 of 10 Old 12-16-2013, 06:45 AM
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Ooch, I burn't my DVD!

 

Wednesday I shot my D5300 at 1080P 60 with a bit rate of 37 Mbps

I took the footage and burnt a AVCHD disc on DVD with PowerDirector

The file size is smaller than the DVD for TV standard disc.

It will play back thru my BlueRay for TV and also the PC.

The quality is very good and surprisingly smooth, seems much better than a regular DVD for TV

and compairs pretty favorably with a BlueRay disc, but at much smaller file size and using cheaper media.

 

Surprisingly, when analysing the disc with MediaInfo I get:

 

Format/Info                              : Blu-ray Video
File size                                : 1.77 GiB
Duration                                 : 13mn 58s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 18.1 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate                 : 17.8 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames                : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=16
Codec ID                                 : 27
Duration                                 : 13mn 57s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 17.0 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 23.976 fps
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.342
Stream size                              : 1.67 GiB (95%)

 

 

 

The DVD for TV was made from externally recorded 1080P 30 DNxHD 48 bit rate files:

 

Complete name                            : G:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_2.VOB
Format                                   : MPEG-PS
File size                                : 1 024 MiB
Duration                                 : 16mn 43s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 8 556 Kbps

Video
ID                                       : 224 (0xE0)
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=15
Duration                                 : 16mn 43s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 8 130 Kbps
Maximum bit rate                         : 8 300 Kbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps
Standard                                 : NTSC
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Top Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.785
Time code of first frame                 : 00:18:11:03
Time code source                         : Group of pictures header
Stream size                              : 973 MiB (95%)

 

 

 

Compare BlueRay disc recorded at 60i:

 

Overall bit rate                         : 14.1 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate                 : 33.1 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : MPEG Video
Format version                           : Version 2
Format profile                           : Main@High
Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=16
Codec ID                                 : 2
Duration                                 : 15s 15ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 13.3 Mbps
Maximum bit rate                         : 32.0 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.213
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00:00
Time code source                         : Group of pictures header
Stream size                              : 23.7 MiB (93%)

 

 

I just recorded some more footage in my D5300 at 1080P 60

Unless someone has a way to produce a 1080P 60 disc, I now think 720P 60 is the best way to critique my bowling Videos.

 

This is the MediaInfo from the (AVC) DVD:

 

 

General
ID                                       : 0 (0x0)
Complete name                            : G:\BDMV\STREAM\00000.m2ts
Format                                   : BDAV
Format/Info                              : Blu-ray Video
File size                                : 3.90 GiB
Duration                                 : 40mn 23s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 13.8 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate                 : 17.8 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames                : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=16
Codec ID                                 : 27
Duration                                 : 40mn 23s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 13.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate                         : 17.0 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 280 pixels
Height                                   : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 59.940 fps
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.236
Stream size                              : 3.67 GiB (94%)

 

Audio
ID                                       : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID                                  : 1 (0x1)
Format                                   : AC-3
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension                           : CM (complete main)
Format settings, Endianness              : Big
Codec ID                                 : 129
Duration                                 : 40mn 23s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 256 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel positions                        : Front: L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 73.9 MiB (2%)

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