Bluray advantage? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 05-16-2013, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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until now i am still confuse as to why a lot of people are fancied about bluray ?
what could be its advantages from the old cd's or dvd's?
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post #2 of 25 Old 05-16-2013, 03:44 AM
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Compared to a good DVD a good Blu-ray has much better picturequality and much better audioquality and this is very visible if you have a 50" TV or bigger and if you have a decent soundsystem. Bigger screen means bigger difference in PQ.

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post #3 of 25 Old 05-16-2013, 09:39 AM
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The violet colored laser can be made thinner than a red one, allowing the physical data spiral to be smaller, leading to greater data density. This allows the disc to hold substantially more data than a C.D. or a D.V.D. More data means you can get away with less compression, leading to a better picture quality and store more content.

Aside from that, even just rebranding optical discs would allow device manufacturers to update their software specifications, without confusing the consumer into thinking new discs would work on older players. This allows for newer codecs/filetypes, which are more efficient and less constrained. MPEG 2 for instance, has limited colorspace compared to H.264. It also allows us to take advantage of newer hardware for tasks which would've been considered overly resource intensive and/or pointless in the past, such as outputting higher resolution video.

The end result is more detailed and lushly colored imagery with fewer compression artefacts from lossy compression schemes. You don't have to take my word for it though, see it for yourself:

This is a comparison of Ghibili's Blu-Ray edition of My Neighbor Totaro next to a DVD counterpart. If you look closely, you'll see the DVD doesn't have the resolution to detect the film's original grain texture and its colors look quite white-washed out in comparison.

To me the blu-ray looks much better. It seems almost like a painting, which makes sense since it's essentially a photograph of one.
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post #4 of 25 Old 05-16-2013, 10:32 AM
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This looks like a troll thread. I oughta report it.....
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post #5 of 25 Old 05-21-2013, 09:35 AM
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Probably started by someone who has a vested interest in seeing streaming become the defacto standard for distribution.

Streaming is a joke if you care about quality.

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post #6 of 25 Old 05-22-2013, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Probably started by someone who has a vested interest in seeing streaming become the defacto standard for distribution.

Streaming is a joke if you care about quality.


I agree that nothing beats Blu-Ray, but if you are going to rule out streaming, then you should also rule out most broadcast programing. I have Netflix's open connect through my ISP and some of the Super HD movies offer pretty good picture quality.


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post #7 of 25 Old 05-22-2013, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

if you are going to rule out streaming, then you should also rule out most broadcast programing.

You have to evaluate every single station to determine their A/V quality. At my previous address all the stations had way too many sub-channels therefore their main HD channel was bit starved. At my current address it is a mixed bag, fortunately one of my main interest is CBS and WSPA does a good job of encoding. My major interest is PBS, unfortunately WUNC can be riddled with artifacts and they have this big, ugly bug. This problem is alleviated with a Prof 7301 DVB-S2 tuner card that allows me to record PBS programs with H.264 at 12 Mbps.

Folks that can record TS from OTA (or DVB-S, DVB-S2) can evaluate them with TSReader.


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post #8 of 25 Old 05-22-2013, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

You have to evaluate every single station to determine their A/V quality..

I agree. However my point is, that I don't believe one can just blatantly claim that any format, including streaming is a joke when it comes to over all picture quality.


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post #9 of 25 Old 05-23-2013, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I agree. However my point is, that I don't believe one can just blatantly claim that any format, including streaming is a joke when it comes to over all picture quality.

Digital video via cable, satellite, OTA and disc is usually a designed process. If picture quality suffers the most likely cause is a deliberate data reduction of the video channel. The internet was not designed to deliver linear digital video therefore there can and will be aberrations. The video aberrations will most likely increase as the use of video via the internet increases.

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The survey found that only 34% of respondents were “very satisfied” with their streaming service


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post #10 of 25 Old 05-23-2013, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Digital video via cable, satellite, OTA and disc is usually a designed process. If picture quality suffers the most likely cause is a deliberate data reduction of the video channel. The internet was not designed to deliver linear digital video therefore there can and will be aberrations. The video aberrations will most likely increase as the use of video via the internet increases.

I have no doubt that your stats are accurate, and nothing beats a replicated format, but there are currently super hd movies that I stream on Netflix that look better then many programs off my Satellite dish. Vudu's HDX also offers pretty good quality and as you well know, there is now talk about 4k video being produced for the internet.
If streaming is a joke, I would love to hear the punchline.


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post #11 of 25 Old 05-23-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I have no doubt that your stats are accurate, and nothing beats a replicated format, but there are currently super hd movies that I stream on Netflix that look better then many programs off my Satellite dish. Vudu's HDX also offers pretty good quality and as you well know, there is now talk about 4k video being produced for the internet.

If streaming is a joke, I would love to hear the punchline.

By satellite I assume you mean Dish and/or DirecTV, if so it is not the fault of the delivery system. There are many satellite transponders capable of 45 Mbps data rates. The fault lies in the providers cramming so many programs onto one multiplex (the same can be said for digital cable or OTA).

As to streaming, there is no punchline. I know you have seen the Netflix charts that shows the average data rates of subs and most average 2.5 Mbps and lower so the average viewer is certainly not seeing great video. IMO, Netflix streaming never was or will be about great video for $8.95 a month. Things like Super HD is pure marketing BS. They just want a large sub base that will be happy with very low value content (movies and TV series). We get 10 Mbps via our ISP but all we view is old stuff (with occasionally new stuff like Hell on Wheels) on Netflix or Amazon Prime. We never view PPV because we have Netflix Blu-ray 3 at a time disc plan.

Another thing, many 2.35 titles have been cropped and zoomed on Netflix (and on VUDU).


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post #12 of 25 Old 05-23-2013, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

By satellite I assume you mean Dish and/or DirecTV, if so it is not the fault of the delivery system. There are many satellite transponders capable of 45 Mbps data rates. The fault lies in the providers cramming so many programs onto one multiplex (the same can be said for digital cable or OTA).

As to streaming, there is no punchline. I know you have seen the Netflix charts that shows the average data rates of subs and most average 2.5 Mbps and lower so the average viewer is certainly not seeing great video. IMO, Netflix streaming never was or will be about great video for $8.95 a month. Things like Super HD is pure marketing BS. They just want a large sub base that will be happy with very low value content (movies and TV series). We get 10 Mbps via our ISP but all we view is old stuff (with occasionally new stuff like Hell on Wheels) on Netflix or Amazon Prime. We never view PPV because we have Netflix Blu-ray 3 at a time disc plan.

Another thing, many 2.35 titles have been cropped and zoomed on Netflix (and on VUDU).

Wendell, I've seen the chart and I hear what you're saying, but open connect HD still looks very good to me and I wouldn't rule out streaming as a viable format in terms of picture quality. Netflix is already producing programing (House Of Cards) in 4k which will be available in the next 2 years.http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/14/4098896/netflix-chief-product-officer-neil-hunt-expect-4k-streaming-within-a-year-or-two (I'm certain by that time, they will have raised their fees.) However, when it comes down to new movie releases, I usually rent 2 to 3 BD's a week.


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post #13 of 25 Old 05-23-2013, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

but open connect HD still looks very good to me and I wouldn't rule out streaming as a viable format in terms of picture quality. Netflix is already producing programing (House Of Cards) in 4k which will be available in the next 2 years.http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/14/4098896/netflix-chief-product-officer-neil-hunt-expect-4k-streaming-within-a-year-or-two (I'm certain by that time, they will have raised their fees.) However, when it comes down to new movie releases, I usually rent 2 to 3 BD's a week.

Glad that you are happy with what you get from Netflix in terms of PQ but the fact remains most do not get a great picture from Netflix. Its understandable, I wager that most folks with 1.78 sets have it in stretch mode for 1.33 content.

4K from Netflix within a year, that is so biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif and yet so mad.gif, just more marketing BS. The current prediction is middle of 2014 before we even see H.265 (HEVC) decoder chips, much less hardware. The basic H.265 spec has only recently been ratified and AFAIK none of the advanced extensions (i.e. 10 bit, 4:2:2, 4:4:4) has even been submitted for ratification.

BTW, streaming is not a format, its nothing more than just another method of delivering data. Have not looked up any statics but would assume most IPTV is using H.264


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post #14 of 25 Old 05-23-2013, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

4K from Netflix within a year, that is so biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif and yet so mad.gif, just more marketing BS. The current prediction is middle of 2014 before we even see H.265 (HEVC) decoder chips, much less hardware. The basic H.265 spec has only recently been ratified and AFAIK none of the advanced extensions (i.e. 10 bit, 4:2:2, 4:4:4) has even been submitted for ratification.

I believe Neil Hunt said a year or 2. No one has a crystal ball here, so I guess we will just have to wait and see. wink.gif

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BTW, streaming is not a format, its nothing more than just another method of delivering data. Have not looked up any statics but would assume most IPTV is using H.264


Since you claim data rates are so low, maybe we should refer to it as dribbling. tongue.gif


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post #15 of 25 Old 05-24-2013, 06:50 AM
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No one has a crystal ball here, so I guess we will just have to wait and see. wink.gif

None needed, feel free to ask Tom McMahon of Broadcom or Keith Jack of Sigma Designs about availability of H.265 decoders (both were/are AVS members). Not likely to get direct answer because of NDAs. IMO, if H.265 decoders were available today you would not see hardware within a year because there is not a market. Most hardware vendors seem to prefer SoC and I would wager those are more than 2 years away.

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Since you claim data rates are so low, maybe we should refer to it as dribbling. tongue.gif

I believe there is no claim, simply referred to Netflix's own info.


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post #16 of 25 Old 05-24-2013, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

None needed, feel free to ask Tom McMahon of Broadcom or Keith Jack of Sigma Designs about availability of H.265 decoders (both were/are AVS members). Not likely to get direct answer because of NDAs. IMO, if H.265 decoders were available today you would not see hardware within a year because there is not a market. Most hardware vendors seem to prefer SoC and I would wager those are more than 2 years away.

A wager is not a crystal ball metaphorically, but I'm not doubting your perception or expertise. I still believe Hunt's goal isn't that far a reach.

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I believe there is no claim, simply referred to Netflix's own info.


A claim can be an affirmation if supported by data, which you have used rather effectively. wink.gif I believe this subject might be better served in the Video Download Service and Hardware forum. Thanks.



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post #17 of 25 Old 05-24-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I still believe Hunt's goal isn't that far a reach.

From Broadcom
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Availability

Samples of the BCM7445 UltraHD TV video decoder for the home are now available, with volume production expected in mid-2014. The BCM7445 will be demonstrated at Broadcom's booth at 2013 CES International.


At my seating distance of 16' I will need to increase my screen size from 106" to about 120" to see any benefit from 4K. The fact that I have 20-13 L, 20-15 R eyesight means that a smaller screen will benefit me. My plan is to replace my current 1.78, 106" screen with a 2.35, 133" screen.

Now try to tell me that Netflix has or will have a significant number of viewers with screen sizes that meet the criteria shown below (size vs. distance vs. pixels) and be interested in 4K and most folks will laugh you out of the room.

It has been/is a hard sell for HDTV and Blu-ray. Without a 4K broadcast standard and requirement, 4K will only appeal to folks like me.



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post #18 of 25 Old 05-24-2013, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

From Broadcom
At my seating distance of 16' I will need to increase my screen size from 106" to about 120" to see any benefit from 4K. The fact that I have 20-13 L, 20-15 R eyesight means that a smaller screen will benefit me. My plan is to replace my current 1.78, 106" screen with a 2.35, 133" screen.

Now try to tell me that Netflix has or will have a significant number of viewers with screen sizes that meet the criteria shown below (size vs. distance vs. pixels) and be interested in 4K and most folks will laugh you out of the room.

It has been/is a hard sell for HDTV and Blu-ray. Without a 4K broadcast standard and requirement, 4K will only appeal to folks like me.



I couldn't agree with you more, 4k is over rated unless you have a pretty big TV. As far as the fool part, you're just living the dream. biggrin.gif For what it's worth, as far as streaming not being a viable option when it comes to viewing quality HD, we can talk about all the stats you want and you won't convince me. I know what I see, and although it can't touch BD, it still looks pretty darn good to me.


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post #19 of 25 Old 05-24-2013, 02:28 PM
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For what it's worth, as far as streaming not being a viable option when it comes to viewing quality HD, we can talk about all the stats you want and you won't convince me. I know what I see, and although it can't touch BD, it still looks pretty darn good to me.

Sorry, not trying to convince you of anything. You were defending the 1 year 4K BS put out by Netflix and I refuted that with data.

As to Netflix streaming, you, I and others may get good quality HD from Netflix but according to Netflix's on data the average data rate is 2.5 Mbps or less for subs which will not be very good quality. What about this is so hard to understand?


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post #20 of 25 Old 05-24-2013, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Sorry, not trying to convince you of anything. You were defending the 1 year 4K BS put out by Netflix and I refuted that with data.


Funny, I thought you were trying to convince me that it was OK to infer that streaming was a joke. Sorry if I misunderstood your reply.

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As to Netflix streaming, you, I and others may get good quality HD from Netflix but according to Netflix's on data the average data rate is 2.5 Mbps or less for subs which will not be very good quality. What about this is so hard to understand?


I understand your point perfectly, so let me clarify mine. Regardless of the chart or any other data that may show the contrary, I still trust what my eyes are showing me, which IMO, is still good picture quality. I believe streaming, for the most part, is a viable quality service, you may feel differently. Enough said, time to move on. Hope that's not too hard to understand. wink.gif


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post #21 of 25 Old 05-25-2013, 06:50 AM
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Hope that's not too hard to understand.

I understand quite well rolleyes.gif, just click the link in my signature line.


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post #22 of 25 Old 05-25-2013, 08:22 AM
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I understand quite well rolleyes.gif, just click the link in my signature line.


I was referring to moving on, not your expertise. I know about your background and you may know some things about mine. Like others on this forum we've both worked in the Consumer Electronics and Television industry. Despite the difference of opinion we have on this subject, I sincerely respect yours and although I'm not a technician, I would hope that you respect mine. Thanks.



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post #23 of 25 Old 05-26-2013, 09:59 AM
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Some comments by the folks at Netflix:
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Good news if you live in the Kansas City metropolitan area: Netflix said Google Fiber’s 1 gigabyte Internet service — which is in limited launch in the region — is the fastest Internet Service Provider (ISP) in the United States at 2.55 Mbps.

Netflix, which tracks some of the highest Internet traffic during peak hours, posted a list of fastest ISPs based on their performance delivering the subscription video-on-demand’s streaming content in November. Netflix plans to release a monthly ranking on domestic ISP speed trials.

“Our 30 million members view [more than] 1 billion hours of Netflix per month, so we have very reliable data for consumers to compare ISPs, in terms of real-world performance,” Ken Florance, VP of content delivery, wrote in a blog post.

Other top speed ISPs included Verizon's FiOS service at No. 2 with 2.19 Mbps, followed by Comcast and Charter at 2.17 Mbps.

Rounding out the Top 10 were Cablevision (2.17 Mbps), Mediacom (2.14 Mbps), Time Warner Cable (2.12 Mbps), Brighthouse (2.12 Mbps), Cox (2.07 Mbps) and Suddenlink (2.06 Mbps).

Florance said cable ISP typically is faster than DSL, while AT&T U-verse (1.94 Mbps), which is a hybrid fiber-DSL service, is significantly slower than Verizon Fios, which is pure fiber. He said Charter’s ISP speed has dropped two positions since October.

Notably, Verizon mobile (0.76 Mbps) was 40% faster than AT&T mobile (0.48 Mbps), underscoring the fact that video streaming on smartphones is not an ideal experience, compared with alternative channels.

Florance said the average ISP speed is well-below the oft-advertised peak performance due to a variety of factors, including home Wi-Fi, connected devices and types of encodes
. The latter is the process of putting a sequence of characters (letters, numbers, punctuation, symbols, etc.) into a specialized format for transmission or storage.

“The relative ranking, however, should be an accurate indicator of relative bandwidth typically experienced across all users, homes and applications,” he wrote.

For myself: Most of the time I get about 10 Mbps on speed test but well below that on real world file downloads. VUDU HDX generally works on the few occasions I view my UV titles.


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post #24 of 25 Old 05-26-2013, 12:57 PM
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I have Cablevison and the Speed Of Me HTML5 test shows anywhere from 18.5 to19.5 mbps off my router. I usually stream Netflix HD and Vudu HDX titles with out a problem. Netflix data rate averages for April: http://ispspeedindex.netflix.com/usa


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post #25 of 25 Old 05-26-2013, 02:34 PM
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For those hopping for Google Fiber:

Google Fiber Not Going Nationwide

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Deployment costs should keep Netflix’s fastest broadband provider on the sidelines as a regional player

Bad news for Netflix subscribers hoping to get faster broadband service.

Google’s heralded fiber optic network is likely to remain a minor player in the U.S. broadband market, with the search behemoth unlikely to deploy the service nationwide due its high cost, according to a new report from IHS Screen Digest.

Google Fiber, which bowed in Kansas City area and announced subsequent rollouts in Provo, Utah, Austin, Texas, regularly tops Netflix’s monthly bandwidth speed ranking for ISPs delivering its subscription video-on-demand service.

Google Fiber’s pricing plan in Kansas City includes free basic Internet connection at 5 megabits per second following a $300 construction fee, and 1 gigabit-per-second broadband available for $70 a month, or with TV service at $120 a month. These prices are similar to European offerings.

IHS believes Google Fiber will be offered only in smaller markets such Austin and Provo, which collectively have a population of about 1.4 million and roughly 600,000 households, respectively. The cities represent only about 0.4% of U.S. households, so even if Google managed to secure a high market share in these metropolitan areas, it would reach only about 0.2% of U.S. homes.


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