Things That Bug You About Blu-ray - AVS Forum
1 2  3  ... Last
HDTV Software Media Discussion > Things That Bug You About Blu-ray
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 06:24 PM 08-05-2013
I love the picture of blu-ray. I love the features of blu-ray. What I don't love is DTS-HD Master Audio. The dynamic range is WAY out of control. I've been told to calibrate/situate the speaker properly. Aside from the rear speakers not being exactly right, everything is set up as it should be. Either the dialogue is way too low and the effects and music are at a proper level or the dialogue is at a proper level and your brain gets destroyed by way too loud effects and music. If I set my player for Mix Audio Output, this lets me set the Night Mode to High. While this evens things out, the effects don't have quite the punch they should have.

And don't tell me that it's not the DTS-HD codec that's a problem. It is. I have discs with TrueHD and Dolby 5.1 tracks....which both play perfectly fine. Luckily for the Disney and Pixar movies, they have either the option for the proper theatrical audio or have a 2.0 surround track. But for Jurassic Park, being my favourite movie, it's a problem. If I just play the HD audio, and have the levels where the dialogue is fine, when the music and dinosaurs roar, you'd think world war 3 was happening in my room.

I have an Onkyo R391. Center channel is +8. Right channel is -10. Left channel is +6. Left rear is +8. Right rear is -8. Subwoofer is +2. Center speaker is to the left of the tv a couple of feet.

I don't even know why they give movies that didn't have DTS audio, or even existed before DTS was invented, DTS-HD Master Audio mixes. Jurassic Park, I can kind of understand, as it was the first DTS movie. But why in the world does It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World have one ? For that matter, why does it even have a surround sound track ? I am well aware that in the 70mm presentations, the movie had 6 track audio, but 99% of people saw it with stereo audio. That's not even an option on the disc. You can put DTS tracks on a disc. I don't care. But the original theatrical audio, or a 2.0 surround track should always be an option. Not everyone has big fancy surround systems.

myoda's Avatar myoda 08:28 PM 08-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spottedfeather View Post

I love the picture of blu-ray. I love the features of blu-ray. What I don't love is DTS-HD Master Audio. The dynamic range is WAY out of control. I've been told to calibrate/situate the speaker properly. Aside from the rear speakers not being exactly right, everything is set up as it should be. Either the dialogue is way too low and the effects and music are at a proper level or the dialogue is at a proper level and your brain gets destroyed by way too loud effects and music. If I set my player for Mix Audio Output, this lets me set the Night Mode to High. While this evens things out, the effects don't have quite the punch they should have.

And don't tell me that it's not the DTS-HD codec that's a problem. It is. I have discs with TrueHD and Dolby 5.1 tracks....which both play perfectly fine. Luckily for the Disney and Pixar movies, they have either the option for the proper theatrical audio or have a 2.0 surround track. But for Jurassic Park, being my favourite movie, it's a problem. If I just play the HD audio, and have the levels where the dialogue is fine, when the music and dinosaurs roar, you'd think world war 3 was happening in my room.

I have an Onkyo R391. Center channel is +8. Right channel is -10. Left channel is +6. Left rear is +8. Right rear is -8. Subwoofer is +2. Center speaker is to the left of the tv a couple of feet.

I don't even know why they give movies that didn't have DTS audio, or even existed before DTS was invented, DTS-HD Master Audio mixes. Jurassic Park, I can kind of understand, as it was the first DTS movie. But why in the world does It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World have one ? For that matter, why does it even have a surround sound track ? I am well aware that in the 70mm presentations, the movie had 6 track audio, but 99% of people saw it with stereo audio. That's not even an option on the disc. You can put DTS tracks on a disc. I don't care. But the original theatrical audio, or a 2.0 surround track should always be an option. Not everyone has big fancy surround systems.

How did you set the levels of your speakers? Were you using a sound pressure level meter? I would not blame the lack of balance on the DTSHD MA codec. I think it's more of a limitation of your receiver and speakers working against you. It's all about dynamic range. I don't understand your beef.
batutta's Avatar batutta 08:42 PM 08-05-2013
LOOOOOOOAAAAADDDDDD TIIIIIIMMMMMMMEEEEEESSSS.
muffinmcfluffin's Avatar muffinmcfluffin 09:23 PM 08-05-2013
Price, that's pretty much it.

The rest I can lay blame on the studios when they deliver us crap transfers or starve the bit-rate to fit features on the same disc (or separate versions).
KMFDMvsEnya's Avatar KMFDMvsEnya 09:31 PM 08-05-2013
Has nothing to do with the codec itself, it is all a matter of the mix used; however I do believe DTS tracks often are mixed a bit louder than Dolby ones. There are a few releases that offer both DTHD and DTSMA tracks and when the levels are equal they sound exactly the same.

In regards to how the format is treated I have numerous issues but number one is trailers preceding the menu. Absolutely loathe and despise trailers, especially when they cannot be skipped or require multiple buttons presses to get past them.
Followed by superfluous warnings or rating logos before the movie starts. Looking at those asinine unpassable MPAA warning logos.

Best Regards
KvE
khronikos's Avatar khronikos 10:12 PM 08-05-2013
No question about it for whatever reason bass is way over emphasized in blockbuster films to the point it just sound ridiculous at certain points.
Big Brad's Avatar Big Brad 10:39 PM 08-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by khronikos View Post

No question about it for whatever reason bass is way over emphasized in blockbuster films to the point it just sound ridiculous at certain points.

Not really a fault of Bluray.
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 12:16 AM 08-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

How did you set the levels of your speakers? Were you using a sound pressure level meter? I would not blame the lack of balance on the DTSHD MA codec. I think it's more of a limitation of your receiver and speakers working against you. It's all about dynamic range. I don't understand your beef.

I don't have enough money for a sound pressure level meter. I never once mentioned the balance of anything. Don't know where you got that from. I was complaining about the outrageous dynamic range of DTS-HD Master Audio. I just bugs the crap out of me. There's no way that people can possibly think it sound good. Either the voices are far too soft and the effects and music are fine, or the voices are fine and the music and effects knock you across the room. I can't wait until I can save enough money for a receiver with audyssey settings so I can fiddle with dynamic volume..or whatever it's called. Putting DRC on High is the only way that I can listen to DTS tracks. Maybe my ears are just far more sensitive than other people's are. The levels of my speakers are fine. It's the dynamic range of DTS that's severely wrong. They don't sound like this in the theaters, so I don't get why DTS sounds like crap at home. And it IS the codec that's the problem. I have The Incredible on blu-ray. The DTS-HD Master Audio track's effects are way wrong. Luckily, it has a Dolby surround mix that sounds fantastic. I don't know why DTS is horrible, but it just is.
TK Doom's Avatar TK Doom 12:29 AM 08-06-2013
I am by no means an expert, but your speaker layout and the way you have them setup may be enhancing a problem that doesn't entirely exist .

Why is your center channel not in the center?

Based on your other adjustments I'd guess you are not in the center but off to the right?
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 12:51 AM 08-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Doom View Post

I am by no means an expert, but your speaker layout and the way you have them setup may be enhancing a problem that doesn't entirely exist .

Why is your center channel not in the center?

Based on your other adjustments I'd guess you are not in the center but off to the right?

No, I'm in the center of the tv, looking at it straight on. The center channel is off to the left because I hear far more out of my right ear than my left. The sound is balanced. At least to me. If anyone else were to listen to my setup, I'm sure the sound would be of to the left for them. If the center speaker were in the center, the sound would, to me, appear to be coming from far off to the right and not the center. According to just about every setup diagram I've seen, aside from the center speaker not being in the center, and the surround speakers being more to the sides than the back, my setup is..well, setup the way it's supposed to be. With my receiver, I can futz with the settings so that I can hear the dialogue. But on the tv in the main room, I don't even trying watching movies with DTS tracks. The dialogue is completely unintelligible. I've tried to watch Bean the movie and Rocketeer blu-rays without a receiver and it's just impossible. I had to dig out the dvds so that I could watch the movies. I just hate DTS in all it's forms. Luckly, two of my favourite movies, Batman and Batman Returns don't have DTS. Nor do the Harry Potter movies. I wish there was a way to use DRC on DTS tracks without flattening everything in the soundtrack. With dolby and every other audio track other than DTS, it's Low, Medium, or High. But since it doesn't work with DTS, it's either High...or nothing.
KMFDMvsEnya's Avatar KMFDMvsEnya 08:19 AM 08-06-2013
I am sorry Spottedfeather, but if what you claim were inherently true about the DTS-MA codec itself there would be substantially more people expressing similar experiences.
The burden of proof lies with you and the probability of your system being setup incorrectly which is the likely culprit more than anything else.

As I mentioned prior I have found that often either playback is simply a bit louder or a unique DTS mix levels maybe louder than a DTHD but again it all has to do with the mix, the codec itself does not matter.
It is like arguing that one compression codec, either .7z or .zip, when compressing say a jpeg one of those codecs will result in different quality when decompressed. Assuming the codec is doing its purpose correctly then the results should be exactly the same, no difference.

Ditto for DTHD or DTSMA, if given the same mix the resulting sonic qualities will be equal during playback.

Best Regards
KvE
myoda's Avatar myoda 09:08 AM 08-06-2013
The OP has no way of reliably balancing his system without an inexpensive SPL. His home theater in a box Onkyo system does not have the advantage of Audyssey room correction, therefore his levels will be off for all surround content. I'm certain that when and if he/she upgrades the receiver and speakers, the output from the newer system will be better aligned.

The End.
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 12:41 PM 08-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya View Post

I am sorry Spottedfeather, but if what you claim were inherently true about the DTS-MA codec itself there would be substantially more people expressing similar experiences.
The burden of proof lies with you and the probability of your system being setup incorrectly which is the likely culprit more than anything else.

As I mentioned prior I have found that often either playback is simply a bit louder or a unique DTS mix levels maybe louder than a DTHD but again it all has to do with the mix, the codec itself does not matter.
It is like arguing that one compression codec, either .7z or .zip, when compressing say a jpeg one of those codecs will result in different quality when decompressed. Assuming the codec is doing its purpose correctly then the results should be exactly the same, no difference.

Ditto for DTHD or DTSMA, if given the same mix the resulting sonic qualities will be equal during playback.

Best Regards
KvE

It has to do with the mix ? Then why is it that I only have problems with DTS tracks ? And not the same movie in Dolby 5.1, TrueHD, or any other surround format ? Why do ALL the mixes for DTS-HD Master Audio have the dialogue way too low ? DTS-HD Master Audio isn't a bit louder, it's massively louder. I don't see how my system is setup incorrectly. According to all the setup charts I've seen, it's set up the way it's supposed to be, other than the center channel sitting a little to the left so that the sound isn't coming from way off to the right. I've tried Jurassic Park in DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby 5.1. In Dolby 5.1, I can hear the dialogue perfectly. But in DTS-HD Master Audio, I either have the dialogue at a proper level and the sound effects blow me out of my seat, or the effects and music are fine and I have to put the speaker right against my ear to hear anything.
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 12:44 PM 08-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

The OP has no way of reliably balancing his system without an inexpensive SPL. His home theater in a box Onkyo system does not have the advantage of Audyssey room correction, therefore his levels will be off for all surround content. I'm certain that when and if he/she upgrades the receiver and speakers, the output from the newer system will be better aligned.

The End.

I have no problem with the balance. The way I have things set up, the center speaker audio is appearing to come from the center of the screen, and the left and right channels appear to come from an equal distance of either side of the screen. I suppose I could turn down the center speaker, but that wouldn't solve anything.
myoda's Avatar myoda 09:57 PM 08-06-2013
To each their own. I just watched Oblivion, in full DTS-HD Master 7.1 audio, and it was excellent. The music by M83 was very good also.

This sentence puzzles me:
"I've tried Jurassic Park in DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby 5.1. In Dolby 5.1, I can hear the dialogue perfectly. But in DTS-HD Master Audio, I either have the dialogue at a proper level and the sound effects blow me out of my seat, or the effects and music are fine and I have to put the speaker right against my ear to hear anything."

Have you tried taking your Jurasic Park disc to a friends home who has a properly set up home theater kit and listened? I give up.


Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 01:37 PM 08-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

To each their own. I just watched Oblivion, in full DTS-HD Master 7.1 audio, and it was excellent. The music by M83 was very good also.

This sentence puzzles me:
"I've tried Jurassic Park in DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby 5.1. In Dolby 5.1, I can hear the dialogue perfectly. But in DTS-HD Master Audio, I either have the dialogue at a proper level and the sound effects blow me out of my seat, or the effects and music are fine and I have to put the speaker right against my ear to hear anything."

Have you tried taking your Jurasic Park disc to a friends home who has a properly set up home theater kit and listened? I give up.


I can't take it to a friend's house. I have no friends. Also, my home theater IS properly set up. How is it not properly set up ? The center channel audio appears to come from the center of the screen and the left and right audio appears to come from equal distances from either side of the screen. How is anything I said puzzling ? The dynamic range of DTS-HD Master Audio is just too messed up. Which is really bad because DTS doesn't have a DRC setting.....

Center channel - +8
Left channel - +6
Right channel - -10
Left rear - +8
Right rear - -8
Subwoofer - +2
Center speaker is to the left of the tv a couple of feet.

Everything is balanced just fine. Either the dialogue is fine and the effects and music blow you out of your seat, or the music and effects are fine and the dialogue is practically nonexistent.
muffinmcfluffin's Avatar muffinmcfluffin 03:35 PM 08-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spottedfeather View Post

Center channel - +8
Left channel - +6
Right channel - -10
Left rear - +8
Right rear - -8
Subwoofer - +2
This doesn't really tell us anything.


Quote:
Center speaker is to the left of the tv a couple of feet.
This does.
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 03:52 PM 08-07-2013
Originally Posted by Spottedfeather View Post

Center channel - +8
Left channel - +6
Right channel - -10
Left rear - +8
Right rear - -8
Subwoofer - +2
This doesn't really tell us anything.


Quote:
Center speaker is to the left of the tv a couple of feet.
This does.

How ? How does where the center speaker is make any difference ? Don't you want me to have balanced sound ? We're not talking about balanced sound. We're talking about audio mixes. If the center speaker is anywhere close to the center of the tv, the sound will come from way off to the right....which has nothing to do with anything.
ambesolman's Avatar ambesolman 05:01 PM 08-07-2013
Go but a radio shack SPL meter and take it home. Adjust each of your speakers level until each is set at 75db at your listening position. Test DTS tracks again and see if it made a difference. Either way you'll be set up correctly. If not, put it back wherever it makes you happy. Take the meter back to the store for a refund.
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 05:26 PM 08-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

Go but a radio shack SPL meter and take it home. Adjust each of your speakers level until each is set at 75db at your listening position. Test DTS tracks again and see if it made a difference. Either way you'll be set up correctly. If not, put it back wherever it makes you happy. Take the meter back to the store for a refund.

I'd need the money for it in the first place. Kind of hard to buy one with absolutely no money. And if I did this, the sound wouldn't be balanced. If I did what you suggest, the sound would be coming from way off to the right of me. And I don't see what the decibel level of the center speaker has to do with being able to hear the dialogue clearly. It's the voices being mixed way too low in DTS that's the problem. Doesn't decibel level mean the volume ? Changing the volume wouldn't fix being able to hear the voices better.
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 06:03 PM 08-07-2013
Maybe turn the crossover down a bit ? At present, it's set at (I think) 120hz. I've heard 80hz is good. Would that make the voices sound better ?
muffinmcfluffin's Avatar muffinmcfluffin 06:43 PM 08-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spottedfeather View Post

How ? How does where the center speaker is make any difference ? Don't you want me to have balanced sound ? We're not talking about balanced sound. We're talking about audio mixes. If the center speaker is anywhere close to the center of the tv, the sound will come from way off to the right....which has nothing to do with anything.

If we're not talking about balanced sound, then why are you continuously posting your sound balance settings?
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 07:08 PM 08-07-2013
I'm not. People kept telling me that I should balance my sound. I simply replied that my sound WAS balanced. I'm just trying to figure out how to get DTS not to sound so wonky. Again, the dialogue is either just fine and the effects and music are far too loud, or the music and effects are fine and the dialogue is barely audible.
myoda's Avatar myoda 07:26 PM 08-07-2013
Good lord. Please stop.
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 07:39 PM 08-07-2013
Stop...what ? Trying to get help with my surround system ? I'm sorry people trying to figure things out taxes your mind. If you don't have anything helpful to ad, just stay out of it and leave the topic to people who actually care about people other than themselves.
ambesolman's Avatar ambesolman 08:02 PM 08-07-2013
Maybe posting a pic of your setup would help
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 08:33 PM 08-07-2013
Do you mean a picture of how it's layed out or just what system I have ? It's an Onkyo HT-S3500 which has an R391 receiver. As to how it's setup....


The long rectangle is my bed. The 2 squares on the top of it are the left surround and left channel speakers. The square at the bottom is the right surround. The line is a window. The horizontal rectangle is a drawing table. the little square in the upper left of it is the receiver and the little mark on it is the center speaker. The diagonal boxes are a vcr and the cable box. the line across them is the HDtv. The box off to the right is a little dresser. To the bottom of the table is a 3 or four foot stack of vhs tapes. The mark on it is the right channel speaker. The box below that is a chair on which sits my guitar amp, a rack that holds about 30 cds, a fan, and more vhs tapes.

Sorry if this a bit convoluted, but I don't have a camera or any way of taking a picture. I don't have anything that takes a picture.
muffinmcfluffin's Avatar muffinmcfluffin 10:02 AM 08-09-2013
I know you're complaining about the mixes, and honestly I want to help you as best as possible.

But if I am to be more honest, the makeshift setup isn't very easy to work with. It could explain the imbalance between films. No, not all films will be balanced equally. I myself even have balance problems in my own bedroom, in that if somebody is downstairs or trying to sleep, they'll ask me to turn down one of my action movies, so I have to fluctuate the volume. That is simply a matter of explosions/collisions/music getting very loud during moments. It never drowns out the dialogue so to speak, but things just get loud. The range truly is on a large decibel spectrum. So these Blu-rays are made exactly as intended, and DTS versus Dolby should not be the difference that makes this happen. I think it's just luck of the draw that you notice it that way, almost as if it's a placebo effect.

I'm assuming those speakers are satellites as a part of an HTiB (home theater in a box), which means lowering the subwoofer crossover frequency to 80Hz will just result in clipping because your center and fronts probably can't handle that range. So lowering it is out. If anything, you might want to raise it to 150Hz or 200Hz. It might throw all of your other settings off, but doing that and then lowering your sub just a little bit might help out slightly.

Another suggestion, although wonky and not truly understanding of how your room is set up, is to reconfigure everything in that room. Look, I understand... I lived in dorms for five years, and have had the craziest of setups just to make things work. But the thing is, I rearranged my furniture for the sake of the system, not the other way around. I don't think you're helping yourself out much by the way that your system is set up. I'm not saying that insultingly, I'm saying that to help you out.

If you could, might you possibly be able to list specific movies that you are having trouble with hearing dialogue, next to specific movies where dialogue is perfect throughout the entire film? I know you mentioned Jurassic Park, but they specifically mixed that stuff to be loud.

I guess the real question I have is whether your complaint is that you can't hear dialogue, or that things get very loud. If things get very loud, hey... that's an uncompressed audio mix that's intended to be impactful. That's just how it works, and there isn't any changing that. You can help alleviate it by minimizing dynamic range on your BD player and your receiver (check out how that affects The Dark Knight), but it doesn't always seem to work. If your complaint is that dialogue is actually getting drowned out during an action scene, I don't know how else to help you other than to say that your system setup just really isn't doing you any favors the way that I see it.

I hope some of this makes sense. Try and follow up if you can.
Gary Seven's Avatar Gary Seven 11:23 AM 08-09-2013
I was looking for a legitimate list of things wrong with BluRay but all I see here is the result of bad calibration and horrible equipment layouts. That being said, usually amps or disc players have an option to dial down the dynamic range, which is probably a good idea for HTiBs. Also, I would try to rearrange your room around your setup rather than the reverse.
Spottedfeather's Avatar Spottedfeather 12:55 PM 08-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by muffinmcfluffin View Post

I know you're complaining about the mixes, and honestly I want to help you as best as possible.

But if I am to be more honest, the makeshift setup isn't very easy to work with. It could explain the imbalance between films. No, not all films will be balanced equally. I myself even have balance problems in my own bedroom, in that if somebody is downstairs or trying to sleep, they'll ask me to turn down one of my action movies, so I have to fluctuate the volume. That is simply a matter of explosions/collisions/music getting very loud during moments. It never drowns out the dialogue so to speak, but things just get loud. The range truly is on a large decibel spectrum. So these Blu-rays are made exactly as intended, and DTS versus Dolby should not be the difference that makes this happen. I think it's just luck of the draw that you notice it that way, almost as if it's a placebo effect.

I'm assuming those speakers are satellites as a part of an HTiB (home theater in a box), which means lowering the subwoofer crossover frequency to 80Hz will just result in clipping because your center and fronts probably can't handle that range. So lowering it is out. If anything, you might want to raise it to 150Hz or 200Hz. It might throw all of your other settings off, but doing that and then lowering your sub just a little bit might help out slightly.

Another suggestion, although wonky and not truly understanding of how your room is set up, is to reconfigure everything in that room. Look, I understand... I lived in dorms for five years, and have had the craziest of setups just to make things work. But the thing is, I rearranged my furniture for the sake of the system, not the other way around. I don't think you're helping yourself out much by the way that your system is set up. I'm not saying that insultingly, I'm saying that to help you out.

If you could, might you possibly be able to list specific movies that you are having trouble with hearing dialogue, next to specific movies where dialogue is perfect throughout the entire film? I know you mentioned Jurassic Park, but they specifically mixed that stuff to be loud.

I guess the real question I have is whether your complaint is that you can't hear dialogue, or that things get very loud. If things get very loud, hey... that's an uncompressed audio mix that's intended to be impactful. That's just how it works, and there isn't any changing that. You can help alleviate it by minimizing dynamic range on your BD player and your receiver (check out how that affects The Dark Knight), but it doesn't always seem to work. If your complaint is that dialogue is actually getting drowned out during an action scene, I don't know how else to help you other than to say that your system setup just really isn't doing you any favors the way that I see it.

I hope some of this makes sense. Try and follow up if you can.

If I have DTS-HD Tracks at the same volume level that I have every other audio mix that exists, the effects and music are fine, but the dialogue is almost in audible...even when dialogue is the only sound in the movie at the moment. I can't check Dark Knight, as I refuse to own it. You can't minimize dynamic range on DTS audio. I know that much about home theater. And a list of movies where I have trouble hearing dialogue ? Well, it's only DTS-HD Master Audio that I have a problem with. So....
Jurassic Park, Jurassic Park 2, Jurassic Park 3
Back To The Future trilogy (but it's nowhere NEAR as bad as most other DTS tracks)
Bean The Ultimate Disaster Movie (one of the worst)
E.T. (though, I haven't watched that one yet, but it's not music or effects heavy, so I don't expect a problem)
Rocketeer (another really bad one)

All the other blu-rays I have have either Dolby 5.1, TrueHD, or both. In a few cases, primarily the Disney and Pixar movies, they have a DTS-HD Master Audio mix, but also have a 2.0 surround mix that sounds fantastic. I really don't have that many blu-rays that have DTS audio. But the ones that I do really bug me as I only buy blu-rays of movies that I already have when they're my favourite movies.
1 2  3  ... Last

Up
Mobile  Desktop