4K BDs on the way? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 01-12-2014, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been waiting for news like this for a long time.
IMO, this is just the thing to get 4K mainstream and into everyone's HT who wants it.

I found this on another reputable website that all of you know.
It may be against forum rules to post a link, but if anyone wants to know where it came from can PM me.


We have a little more for you today on the revelation yesterday that 4K may be coming to Blu-ray in the year ahead. Speaking to the Hollywood Reporter, Blu-Ray Disc Association’s global promotions committee chair, Victor Matsuda, revealed that ‘the BDA board recently approved work to extend Blu-Ray to include 4K and will be exploring the best possible technical blueprint.’ The work is being done by a task force of representatives from 17 companies including Sony, Technicolor, Dolby, Fox and Disney. And based on last night’s story, Samsung as well.

Meanwhile, the (DECE) Digital Entertainment Content Ecosystem (the group behind UltraViolet) is planning to add 4K support and also higher dynamic range, color space, frame rate and related features.

It remains to be seen if the Hollywood studios will aggressively support consumer delivery of 4K content on Blu-ray. My own suspicion – based on interactions with the studios and their evolving pattern of BD releases – is that the studio thinking has shifted significantly away from discs. That could mean 4K Blu-ray may face a difficult road in terms of Hollywood support. On the other hand, it’s also possible that brick and mortar retailers like Target, Best Buy and Walmart may have a strong preference for physical product… and these days what retailers want seems to carry a lot more weight with the studios than what actual consumers want.

In any case, I still believe 4K – whether delivered on Blu-ray or not – is likely to remain a slow-developing, incremental niche market for some time to come. The key question is: Do most consumers really want 4K (or 8K, or 3D) and feel much of a need to upgrade to it? That’s not what I’m sensing.

But we’ll see.

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post #2 of 36 Old 01-12-2014, 02:43 PM
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Blu Ray has been around a few years now yet in our UK Supermarkets it occupies 30% of shelf space with DVD at 70%

So if 1080p hasnt been embraced by the mainstream Things dont look good for 4k BD....
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post #3 of 36 Old 01-12-2014, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rusky_g View Post

Blu Ray has been around a few years now yet in our UK Supermarkets it occupies 30% of shelf space with DVD at 70%

So if 1080p hasnt been embraced by the mainstream Things dont look good for 4k BD....
I am U.S. based and not familiar with the UK BD/DVD video market.

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post #4 of 36 Old 01-12-2014, 06:55 PM
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I am pretty sure you can post a link, you just cannot post only a link and nothing else. Nor be banned for it, certainly not for a one time offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rusky_g View Post

Blu Ray has been around a few years now yet in our UK Supermarkets it occupies 30% of shelf space with DVD at 70%

So if 1080p hasnt been embraced by the mainstream Things dont look good for 4k BD....

I would be more worried about HMV UK stock then a supermarket.
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post #5 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 12:28 AM
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HMV kinda went bust :-/
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post #6 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh, OK, my bad.redface.gif
I didn't know the BD forum was the wrong place for discussing upcoming 4K BDs.

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post #7 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 03:43 AM
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Its a perfectly fine place - I was just echoing your post suggesting that 4k BR could take a while to take off!
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post #8 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 05:04 AM
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I would think that a vote here on AVS would be for 4K (AND BEYOND!) but we do not represent the general public's opinion. Most people watch things on their phones or other crappy screens.

We are a select group with an eye for (picture) quality.

I visit (intelligent) folks homes all the time and I see HD displays hooked up with component cables, aspect ratio wrong, watching the SD channels instead of HD-- etc. Not only do they not know but they don't care.

Me, on the other hand, tried to watch Ironman 3 last night on my "free" premiums on demand channel. I think it was Showtime. I have FIOS btw. It looked like a bad VHS copy. I was so disappointed. We spend all this money and time setting up our systems-- to have a few hours of "quality" time-- and all we get are these subpar muddied broadcasts. I see it on my FIOS, on Netflix, on Amazon, etc. And I can guarantee you the masses don't care. So how can 4K ever have legs?
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post #9 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 05:26 AM
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I think 4K will catch on simply because the masses are so apathetic. They'll have no choice but to own 4K hardware. Manufacturers are gearing up to drop 4K laptops, tablets, TVs, monitors, and even phones throughout 2014. Consumer level camcorders, personal video recorders, and mobile devices are packed with hardware to natively record 4K content. The 4K flood is coming, the only thing in doubt is what form the physical media will take, if there is a physical media... which I'm starting to doubt there will be.
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post #10 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 06:25 AM
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A Samsung rep had some words about the future of 4K BD at CES.
Quote:
Speaking to Australia's national newspaper, The Australian, Samsung representatives at CES have revealed that the oft-rumored quad-layer Blu-ray format--double the current standard, which could hold upwards of 100GB--will be revamped in preparation for the release of 4K Blu-ray discs by the end of the year.

Samsung revealed that the format is "good to go", save for the Blu-ray Disc Association having not selected which codec will be utilised.

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/34743/samsung-promises-new-4k-blu-ray-format-by-the-end-of-2014/index.html
Seems that the BDA have been "dragging their feet" slightly here.
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post #11 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 08:10 AM
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They could have just asked us. BDXL with H.265 is more than sufficient.
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post #12 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 12:06 PM
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I want my UHD-BD!
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post #13 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 12:48 PM
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4K content has another 5 years before it even begins to come close to approaching the kind of mainstream consumer acceptance on the niche level of laserdiscs in the mid 90's..

You need a pretty large monitor (65"+) to start noticing a significant difference in image quality between typical 1080p HD and 4K. Consumers except a very, very small niche market aren't ready to start shelling out money to once again re-buy their home video collection when they're still supplanting their dvds with blu-rays, much less blow $3k - $8k on another new large tv to watch it on. Add to that, studios still have a ways to go to get a decent number of their films scanned in 4k, must less any "remastering" for 4k home video. And is anyone in a hurry to re-buy their favorite movies in 4k only to discover studio"x" has further mucked with the transfer using dnr, etc to make a 40+ year old movie look "pretty" for ultra HD? The first content to benefit would obviously be new big studio releases since nothing is shot on film anymore (oboy, 4k Avengers 2 sequel - that's worth all the upgrading!) and personal video from future 4k quality camcorders, iphones, etc. Seriously - is that worth all the fuss?

Short termover the next half decade, it's buy a 4k TV and upscale 95% of anything you watch from 1080p (make your own "Patton" digital smooth-fest on the fly!) until the next decade. And then there's broadcast/streaming - yeah, I can't see compressed to hell 4k content impressing anyone for years to come. Like 3D (which will likely be dead as an in-home medium in 2 more years), there's just not any solid demand for 4k content at this point and jumping into this technology too quickly is going to result in big losses for flatscreen manufacturers. Hell, typical flatscreen 1080p tvs still have a ways to go before color, black levels, lag time, etc aren't an issue, much less bringing prices further down.
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post #14 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LL3HD View Post

all we get are these subpar muddied broadcasts.
I agree, it's very disappointing.
The FCC should have mandated higher quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Seems that the BDA have been "dragging their feet" slightly here.
No doubt the typical infighting regarding formats...

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post #15 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partyslammer View Post

4K content has another 5 years before it even begins to come close to approaching the kind of mainstream consumer acceptance on the niche level of laserdiscs in the mid 90's..

You need a pretty large monitor (65"+) to start noticing a significant difference in image quality between typical 1080p HD and 4K...

Having sat up close to the 31" UP3214Q and 6-10ft in front of other larger 4K HDTVs, I must disagree with you. Also, several 4K HDTVs are under $1,000.
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post #16 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post

Having sat up close to the 31" UP3214Q and 6-10ft in front of other larger 4K HDTVs, I must disagree with you. Also, several 4K HDTVs are under $1,000.

What 4k content were you watching?
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post #17 of 36 Old 01-13-2014, 07:53 PM
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GoPro footage and YouTube. Significantly better than 1080p.

EDIT: Not to mention all the 4K content natively generated by the gaming computer connected to it!
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post #18 of 36 Old 01-14-2014, 05:28 PM
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If they allow for higher bit depth, color space, and dynamic range,then you don't even need 4k pixels to see the benefit on a 50" from ten feet. Even 1080p panels will look better if fed such a signal (provided the video transfer is pristeen. We have all seen that even 1080p bluray can look like crap if the transfer or source is bad)
Content wise though, only newer films and lovingly transfered classics will actually benefit from this. So content will still be sparse. My fear is that we are going to get a glut of pre-upscaled "4k bluray" that looks no better than a decent upscaled 1080p bluray. Tricking consumers into rebuying movies with absolutely no real improvement.
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post #19 of 36 Old 01-15-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus Dark View Post

Content wise though, only newer films and lovingly transfered classics will actually benefit from this. So content will still be sparse. My fear is that we are going to get a glut of pre-upscaled "4k bluray" that looks no better than a decent upscaled 1080p bluray. Tricking consumers into rebuying movies with absolutely no real improvement.

Like you said, we don't have to worry about new movies using 4K+ (or IMAX film) cameras and workflows. We also won't have to worry about catalog film titles that are properly transferred and restored.

While I agree that content may not be widespread at first, I don't think there's any evidence that we'll be tricked into upscaled content. I submit the DVD-to-Blu-ray transition as evidence to this claim. Aside from ~30 seconds of Star Trek TNG, Series 1-4 of Doctor Who, and Farscape, I must say that I am not aware of any DVD content that was upscaled to 1080p for Blu-ray. Technically, DW and Farscape were upscaled from PAL576, but even so... There was no attempt on the part of the studios to deceive customers - in fact they went out of their way in press releases and interviews to be quite honest. While it's true that many DVDs and Blu-ray discs share old HD masters, they are certainly not upscales. I'm sure that there have been some pure 480p->1080p upscales, but let's be honest, they are in the tiniest of handfuls. That is why I doubt that 4K will see a "glut" of upscales.

The unavoidable gray area, however, will be the glut of 2K DI masters used on many films from the 90s to date. With the exception of Weta going back and redoing the LOTR trilogy, I can't see any such films ever exceeding 2K. In these cases, the 4K versions will be upscales, but at least they will be better than the 1080p versions! wink.gif
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post #20 of 36 Old 01-19-2014, 10:03 AM
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post #21 of 36 Old 01-22-2014, 01:34 PM
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hope you are joking.Gopro 3 + user here and 2.7K 4K footage from gopro looks worse than blurays.and youtube? wow dont get me start how bad compression they have
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post #22 of 36 Old 01-22-2014, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
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hope you are joking.Gopro 3 + user here and 2.7K 4K footage from gopro looks worse than blurays.and youtube? wow dont get me start how bad compression they have

There are compression artifacts, but there is also significantly more detail resolved than on any Blu-ray I've ever seen.
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post #23 of 36 Old 01-23-2014, 07:33 AM
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Looks like 12-bit color might make it into the mix using Deep Color Encoding. Even though the UHD displays are 10-bit at the most, it would bode well for future advances in display tech as they would eventually hit 12-bit or more at the high-end in several years.
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post #24 of 36 Old 02-15-2014, 10:10 PM
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This a very interesting read concerning the upcoming new 4K bluray. It will benefit everyone once it is implemented. Hopefully it makes it's way to North America soon enough.


http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/new-12-bit-deep-colour-encoding-tech-announced-for-4k-blu-ray-201401243602.htm

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/bda-4k-201401093581.htm

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post #25 of 36 Old 02-16-2014, 12:54 AM
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Personally, I just wish they would encode full resolution 1080p with 4:4:4 instead of 4:2:0. Every time there is a red light or other red objects, they look blocky as hell and it is very distracting. 12-bit color to get rid of banding would also be fantastic. Forget 4K and deliver better 1080p please! With that being said, downsampling 4:2:0 4K to 1080p may achieve what I am looking for anyway.
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post #26 of 36 Old 02-16-2014, 06:25 AM
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Threads merged.

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post #27 of 36 Old 02-17-2014, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanddrews View Post

I must say that I am not aware of any DVD content that was upscaled to 1080p for Blu-ray. Technically, DW and Farscape were upscaled from PAL576, but even so... There was no attempt on the part of the studios to deceive customers - in fact they went out of their way in press releases and interviews to be quite honest.
Unless they clearly say on the Blu-ray cover and product description shown on sites selling them that they are upscales, people will still be deceived - thinking they're true high definition. The product description for the Farscape 1-4 BD says "in crystal clear HD.". If it's not really HD (ie. is upscaled to HD from SD) of course that is deceiving people.
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post #28 of 36 Old 02-17-2014, 07:49 AM
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Unless they clearly say on the Blu-ray cover and product description shown on sites selling them that they are upscales, people will still be deceived - thinking they're true high definition. The product description for the Farscape 1-4 BD says "in crystal clear HD.". If it's not really HD (ie. is upscaled to HD from SD) of course that is deceiving people.
I've got my Farscape box and each season right here and it makes no claims to be in HD, nor does it claim to be restored or remastered in HD. "Ultimate picture and sound" and "unmatched sound and picture", which are true given that Farscape does not exist in a better format. In fact, it doesn't even state "1080p" anywhere on the packaging. Some of the special features are called out as being HD (as they are HD), but nothing else promises HD specifically. We must have different box sets (mine is the first release from a couple years ago).

I agree, however, that it would be nice if they were forced to state somewhere on the package "upscaled from SD source" or something to that effect. Your average Target customer probably never bothered to verify if the series was upscaled or restored (ala TNG) and just assumed Blu-ray=HD. I guess "buyer beware" applies. On the plus side, at least the customer ended up with the best possible video and audio presentation in existence. wink.gif
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There was at least one upscaled HD release from a major studio. (If you were here in the format war days you might remember it) And there have been lots from smaller companies.
The point being that it is nearly impossible to come up with a list of SD upscales on Blu-ray.
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post #29 of 36 Old 02-17-2014, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
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I've got my Farscape box and each season right here and it makes no claims to be in HD, nor does it claim to be restored or remastered in HD. "Ultimate picture and sound" and "unmatched sound and picture", which are true given that Farscape does not exist in a better format. In fact, it doesn't even state "1080p" anywhere on the packaging. Some of the special features are called out as being HD (as they are HD), but nothing else promises HD specifically. We must have different box sets (mine is the first release from a couple years ago).
I don't have it. I looked at the product description for it on Amazon UK, which says "the way it was meant to be seen--in crystal clear HD.", "presented in stunning high definition", "Remastered from the highest quality source material, all 88 episodes of the fan favourite series are presented in crystal clear High Definition". And as always Amazon says "Note: Blu-ray discs are in a high definition format". Nowhere does the product description for it there say it was upscaled from standard definition. That's the main point that should have been said, and not saying that and also saying crystal clear high def and stunning high def is deceiving people.

edit: Are you sure Farscape should be in 1080p24 format? It's an Australian series where PAL (25 fps) is the TV format, I looked it up and it said it was shot on 35mm film but transferred to video for editing and effects. So was it shot at 24 or 25 fps? Would a 1080i25 upscale be a better way to transfer something that was upscaled from 576i25 video - though it would be sped up if it was actually shot at 24 fps.

There's a page about it here http://www.thedigitalbits.com/site_archive/articles/farscape/interview.html - with scaled down screenshot comparisons to the NTSC DVD I assume - it also says "and converted the SD Rec.601 color space (16-235) to the HD Rec.709 (0-255) color space. The end result a 1080p HD master ready for encoding.". I thought it was normal to encode Blu-ray titles in the rec 709 colour space so that video is normally in the 16-235 range.confused.gif

""Ultimate picture and sound" - I don't think an upscale from standard definition is the ultimate in picture quality.

I'm not against them putting standard definition or standard definition upscaled to HD on Blu-ray, just that they should make it very clear that it is one of those on the BD covers & product desc.
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post #30 of 36 Old 02-17-2014, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
The point being that it is nearly impossible to come up with a list of SD upscales on Blu-ray.
At Blu-ray.com you can search by resolution eg. "1080p (upscaled)". Though that won't be a definitive list, and it doesn't include things like "28 days later" which was filmed (mostly?) on standard def camcorders. Also, you could do tests eg. downscale/upscale tests to see how much resolvable resolution is in Blu-rays. That should also tell you if something is an SD upscale (or only contains an SD amount of resolvable information), if other information doesn't.
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