Are 35mm films capable of the Rec 2020 colour space? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 01-17-2014, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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If 4K disc comes out and have Rec 2020 colour space support how many movies will be able to take advantage of it? Is the colour space of 35mm on par with Rec 2020 ? Or will rec 2020 have to rely on only new films?
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post #2 of 13 Old 01-22-2014, 08:15 AM
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Using Google's image-search feature, here's a color gamut plot comparing
Sony's F65 digital cinema camera versus film (top left).

And here's another plot of rec 2020 color gamut (top left). Various search terms might show a direct comparison. Anyway, it's a start. -- John
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post #3 of 13 Old 01-22-2014, 11:47 AM
 
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Great question,

 

Film is an endowed medium. Modern color film stock (~1985-present) latitude / capture is HDR (~11 stops), film also has a logarithmic response to  light, just like the human eye. Film also has a near infinite color palette. DCI specs are similar to that of 35mm film. Film sets a very high standard to equal.

 

Standard Rec 709 video is limited to ~7 stops or ~200:1 contrast.    

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post #4 of 13 Old 01-25-2014, 02:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the answers so far. I got this answer on another forum:

"Well, film color is not a color space, per se. There are boundaries to what can be captured on film and then reproduced by film print, and these boundaries, when mapped to the CIE 1931 XYZ color space chart, establish what might be better termed a film color gamut.

However, to directly answer your question in a nutshell….Yes….because the color coordinates for BT.2020 map out a WIDE color gamut (WCG).

And next if anyone is subsequently wondering….yes….Dolby Vision supports BT.2020 color and….can even be tweaked to support the XYZ color space if needed."
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post #5 of 13 Old 01-25-2014, 02:33 AM
 
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http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.com/dcp/news/now-you-see-them-now-you-dont-colorimetry-and-electronic-cinema/44388

 

….Kuttner agreed that achieving a "film look" will be the toughest challenge for any electronic cinema system.

 

 "Film has a greater color depth than video and tracks color logarithmically like the human eye. Any electronic projection system will need to support 36-bit color with 12 bits per color plane. 150:1 contrast will probably be the minimum acceptable grayscale, although daylight film stocks can achieve 1,000:1 contrast."

 

- - - - - - - - - -

 

Why I commented 35mm film has potentially near infinite color palette.

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post #6 of 13 Old 01-25-2014, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bralas View Post

http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.com/dcp/news/now-you-see-them-now-you-dont-colorimetry-and-electronic-cinema/44388

….Kuttner agreed that achieving a "film look" will be the toughest challenge for any electronic cinema system.

 "Film has a greater color depth than video and tracks color logarithmically like the human eye. Any electronic projection system will need to support 36-bit color with 12 bits per color plane. 150:1 contrast will probably be the minimum acceptable grayscale, although daylight film stocks can achieve 1,000:1 contrast."

- - - - - - - - - -

Why I commented 35mm film has potentially near infinite color palette.

rolleyes.gif Please note that the article was written around year 2000, and is completely outdated and the information of film vs. digital is in no way applicable anymore. cool.gif
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post #7 of 13 Old 01-25-2014, 05:11 AM
 
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Please, expand on exactly what you are saying.

 

A medium that sets the industry benchmark IS paramount in my book. On sale now at Barnes & Nobel:)

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post #8 of 13 Old 01-26-2014, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bralas View Post

Please, expand on exactly what you are saying.

I don't know what you didn't get? A lot of development has happened in digital cinema since year 2000 which was more like the start of digital cinema.

The article start out with;
"Electronic cinema is a hot topic for 1999,......"
Now it is 2014.
.
"Until recently, the biggest stumbling block to electronic cinema had been the projectors themselves.
It was not technically feasible to project large wide-screen images with brightness, contrast, and color saturation that even came close to 16mm film, let alone 35mm.
But that has all changed int he past six years with the introduction of imaging engines based on transmitted light (liquid-crystal displays), reflected light (Texas Instruments' Digital Light Processing), and hybrid light-shutter(Hughes-JVC's Image Light Amplifier) technology."

This is old-school descriptions.

.
"None of these technologies are ready to replace film immediately, but manufacturers are making impressive demonstrations of film-like projection quality on a daily basis. Texas Instruments has been showcasing standard 4:3, 16:9, and anamorphic 2.35:1 electronic cinema to several studios using three 1280 x 1024-pixel digital micro-mirror devices (DMDs)."

Resolution of 1280 x 1024 was how far they had come at the time.

.
"Hughes-JVC Technology, manufacturer of the super-bright ILA-12K cinema-grade projector, recently announced a joint partnership with QUALCOMM in a new company called CineComm."

JVC is not in cinema projection business anymore.........

.
"Fixed-resolution displays such as DMDs and LCDs have now reached over 1000 vertical pixels and are flirting with 1200,............."

Do I need to say more..............

.
"...............but it also forms the basis of our present-day analog NTSC color television system and the CCIR-601 digital color specification."

CCIR-601 was later renamed Rec.601. We are now on Rec.709 for TV and approaching Rec.2020.
Cinema has been using the wider colorspace of DCI-P3 for many years.

They also talk about Film scanners like The Spirit which is outdated. A lot of development in CCD/CMOS sensors has happened in fifteen years providing higher resolution and better colors from film scans.

Even film has now become a digital media because it is immediately scanned and functions as just another camera sensor like a mix of film and the scanner sensor characteristics.
A film print for distribution has never contained the full color quality of the original positive/negative.

No film has been distributed for many years which has had its distribution copy made optical from the film negative.
Fox just announced that they will stop distributing film copies all together. I you don't have a digital projector in your cinema you won't get the movie.

So you see, information from year 2000 is not applicable anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bralas View Post

A medium that sets the industry benchmark IS paramount in my book.

Why?
Leave it to the benchmark setter of ITU and others, they are paid for the job.

As for thread starters question; Film doesn't have particularly wide color space compared to the modern digital cameras.

Even if Rec.2020 capable displays comes on the market in some years, doesn't mean that all films (or any at all) will contain the full colorspace.

Rec.2020 and the new comparable standard for cinema called ACES are made so wide that they almost contain visible light, but that is done to not have restrictions, not to force everybody to finish movies or TV programs in that colorspace.

Rec.2020 is slightly wider than ProPhoto colorspace.
Rec.7+9 is comparable to sRGB.

This promotion CIE chart from Sony gives an idea of various color spaces. It is not accurate, Sony has cheated a little to make their cameras F65 and F35 colorspace look a little better in comparison.



This one might be more accurate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bralas View Post

On sale now at Barnes & Nobel:)

Might be fun as an history book, but useles fo anybody that want to have knowledge of what is going on today.
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post #9 of 13 Old 01-26-2014, 08:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Do I need to say more....
 

Histronics, coupled w/large images mean what exactly?

 

The OP was inquiring about the dynamics of 35mm film. I gave succinct empirical data regarding the prowess of the format itself.

 

"Any electronic projection system will need to support 36-bit color with 12 bits per color plane"

 

A statement like this suggest film is quit endowed indeed. In fact the color saturation characteristic is unmatched. Now worries though, most don't

comprehend the quantum difference between log space and what is effectively a "linear" dynamic space. Please don't tell me how Rec 709 gamma is

non linear...please! The medium can only represent 100:1 or at best 200:1 with 8-bit per color.

 

"...CIELAB and CIELUV color spaces target print and video respectively.  L* models contrast approximately 100:1 with peak luminance somewhere around 200 cd/m^2.  The L* value of 8, corresponds to a contrast ratio of 100:1 (linear segment breakpoint).":) 

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post #10 of 13 Old 01-28-2014, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kristoffer77 View Post

If 4K disc comes out and have Rec 2020 colour space support how many movies will be able to take advantage of it? Is the colour space of 35mm on par with Rec 2020 ?
35mm film has a fairly good sized color space as seen in this Sony comparison chart and would benefit from the Rec. 2020 color space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kristoffer77 View Post

Or will rec 2020 have to rely on only new films?
Almost all digital movies used the DCI P3 color space which is smaller than 35mm film. Hollywood is slowly moving towards the ACES color space, which covers the entire range of visible light, but at the moment it is rare for a movie to use it. Ironically this means that for a period of 10+ years the color space of movies decreased because of the switch from 35mm film to digital projection.
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post #11 of 13 Old 01-28-2014, 09:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post


... Ironically this means that for a period of 10+ years the color space of movies decreased because of the switch from 35mm film to digital projection.

+1:) 

 

"...Please note that the article was written around year 2000"

 

"...completely outdated and the information of film vs. digital is in no way applicable anymore"

-2:rolleyes: 

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post #12 of 13 Old 01-29-2014, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bralas View Post

+1:)  

"...Please note that the article was written around year 2000"

"...completely outdated and the information of film vs. digital is in no way applicable anymore"
-2:rolleyes:  

As a newcomer to this forum you seems to be intent on regularly taking statements out of context and try to provoke an argument where there are nothing to argue about. Your posts seems to display a inability to understand the content of the posts you try to argue about without showing any sign that you have any valuable input.

If you don't understand by yourselves that an article from 2000 that discuss the equipment (scanners and projectors) they had back then, which where unable to extract the full colorspace (and other qualities) of 35mm film, and was unable to digitally project the full and equal quality of 35mm film, then I don't know how someone could explain that to you.

Nobody here are interested in the limitations of equipment made more than fifteen years ago. Even the 35mm film-stock has improved vastly since then.

There are also reasons for why archival movies which has been scanned and distributed digital many years ago are now being rescanned on newer and better equipment, and that is not for the increased resolution alone.
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post #13 of 13 Old 08-14-2014, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bralas View Post

The OP was inquiring about the dynamics of 35mm film.
No, what the OP enquired about was a broader question, about the colour space. Rec 2020 defines a colour space. I think the OP was asking whether modern 35mm film can capture [the negative] the whole of the defined Rec 2020 colour space. And the OP may in addition have been interested in whether a print from a negative would be capable of covering the whole of the Rec 2020 colour space.

If the colour space is limited (e.g. a particular print process is unable to show a particular shade of red at all) it is little consolation that this limitation in the gamut covered by the colour space of the print is maintained over a very wide dynamic range, traceable back to the dynamic range of the negative.

The colour of film prints in the mid to late decades of the 20th century varied considerably as techniques improved. I think it is part of the charm of movies from those past decades that they retain various distinctive looks.

Last edited by MLXXX; 08-14-2014 at 04:46 PM.
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