Could a title that once looked better on HD-DVD now look better on Blu-Ray, or will there eventually be a 4K transfer? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 06-08-2014, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Back when there was a thread featuring King Kong comparison pics (HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray), the edge was given to the HD-DVD. It is one of my favorite titles, and I still own a factory sealed Toshiba HD-A35. I am debating whether I should sell it or keep it.

Is it possible with the advancing technology in Blu-Ray players that it now looks as good or better on Blu-Ray as on HD-DVD? Have/will they do go back and redo it in a higher quality transfer on Blu-Ray? Or is all of this irrelevant because there will eventually be a 4K transfer that will blow both out of the water? (Please say yes, I need the $!) Thanks!
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post #2 of 17 Old 06-08-2014, 12:22 PM
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I doubt in motion either encode looked better than the other.

The HD DVD decoders never quite reached Blu-ray level simply because of advancements over time, so King Kong might look very slightly better on Blu-ray today, but it's probably splitting hairs. It would be an interesting comparison though on a large screen set-up. It's too bad Universal didn't use a high bit AVC encode for the Blu-ray as it would be more definitive. Yes, the 4K version handled properly will be a big improvement on a large screen or front projection set-up, but we're likely talking years before seeing such.

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post #3 of 17 Old 06-09-2014, 04:58 AM
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As the saying goes: you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Whilst encoding techniques have improved, it is still very much dependent on the source material: if the studios don't bother to do a better transfer, then the quality will remain the same.

I'm not quite sure why some Bluray releases are not as good as the HD-DVD versions: it's quite easy to convert an HD-DVD into Bluray format without re-encoding, so at the least one should have identical results. I suspect the studios simply chose to re-encode the masters to AVC for Bluray and filtered the material too much in the process. Many of the earlier Bluray releases are also sub-par, having been filtered versions of HDTV masters or simply too much filtering used.

Sometimes the poorer video of Bluray is offset by better audio quality.

It's possible some of the poor Bluray versions might be released later in a better form, but I fear that the studios won't bother with many of their catalogue titles as it's extra money at a time when profits are declining, or if they do, provide it to an organisation like Twilight Time who release limited runs at a premium price.

My gut feeling is that Bluray will decline in favour of streaming, but who really knows what will happen.

If you wish to stray to the dark side of illegality, you could rip those HD-DVD which are better than their Bluray equivalents and convert them into Bluray format and then give-up HD-DVD altogether. Some people have even merged better Bluray audio with the better HD-DVD video (eg The Thing).
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post #4 of 17 Old 06-09-2014, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by IanD View Post

As the saying goes: you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Whilst encoding techniques have improved, it is still very much dependent on the source material: if the studios don't bother to do a better transfer, then the quality will remain the same.

I'm not quite sure why some Bluray releases are not as good as the HD-DVD versions: it's quite easy to convert an HD-DVD into Bluray format without re-encoding, so at the least one should have identical results. I suspect the studios simply chose to re-encode the masters to AVC for Bluray and filtered the material too much in the process. Many of the earlier Bluray releases are also sub-par, having been filtered versions of HDTV masters or simply too much filtering used.

Sometimes the poorer video of Bluray is offset by better audio quality.

It's possible some of the poor Bluray versions might be released later in a better form, but I fear that the studios won't bother with many of their catalogue titles as it's extra money at a time when profits are declining, or if they do, provide it to an organisation like Twilight Time who release limited runs at a premium price.

My gut feeling is that Bluray will decline in favour of streaming, but who really knows what will happen.

If you wish to stray to the dark side of illegality, you could rip those HD-DVD which are better than their Bluray equivalents and convert them into Bluray format and then give-up HD-DVD altogether. Some people have even merged better Bluray audio with the better HD-DVD video (eg The Thing).

So is King Kong noticably better on HD-DVD?

Also, with that ripping and then converting to Blu-Ray idea you mentioned - will it look exactly the same as the HD-DVD? And if I'm willing to do that, is there absolutely no reason to keep my HD-DVD player? Thanks!
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post #5 of 17 Old 06-09-2014, 07:15 AM
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I have three, and there is absolutely no reason to keep them. ;)

Serenity is considered better on BD than HD, but I only have the HD so I can't comment.

Converting the file to another format won't change either the audio or the video, but it is a PITA, and doesn't always work. BTW, as long as you own the HD, I'm pretty sure it's quite legal (as long as you're not selling the converted file).

As with albums that have been re-released over the years, some transfers/conversions have been better than others. Same here.


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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #6 of 17 Old 06-09-2014, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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So the Kong HD-DVD is noticably better?
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post #7 of 17 Old 06-09-2014, 08:47 AM
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Again, I, personally, only have it on HD and have not seen the BD, so I cannot comment.

Anyone else?


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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #8 of 17 Old 06-09-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Yes, the 4K version handled properly will be a big improvement on a large screen or front projection set-up, but we're likely talking years before seeing such.

The final version only exists in 2K. I suppose technically it could be possible to re-scan the negative and re-render all of the effects, then redo all the colour timing to create a new 4K version, but the time and expense involved make it extremely unlikely.

Don't tug on that, you never know what it might be attached to...
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post #9 of 17 Old 06-09-2014, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by worth View Post

The final version only exists in 2K. I suppose technically it could be possible to re-scan the negative and re-render all of the effects, then redo all the colour timing to create a new 4K version, but the time and expense involved make it extremely unlikely.

Have you seen both versions?
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post #10 of 17 Old 06-10-2014, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worth View Post

The final version only exists in 2K. I suppose technically it could be possible to re-scan the negative and re-render all of the effects, then redo all the colour timing to create a new 4K version, but the time and expense involved make it extremely unlikely.

True...especially with a studio like Universal who puts very little effort into catalog titles.

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post #11 of 17 Old 06-12-2014, 04:17 AM
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The UK version of the HD DVD I'm sure looked worse than the UK Blu-ray version. There was banding and compression artefacts (eg. on the credits) on the UK HD DVD of King Kong that weren't on the UK Blu-ray.
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post #12 of 17 Old 06-15-2014, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by worth View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by DavidHir 

Yes, the 4K version handled properly will be a big improvement on a large screen or front projection set-up, but we're likely talking years before seeing such.


The final version only exists in 2K. I suppose technically it could be possible to re-scan the negative and re-render all of the effects, then redo all the colour timing to create a new 4K version, but the time and expense involved make it extremely unlikely.
What is 2K?
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post #13 of 17 Old 06-19-2014, 12:34 PM
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If you limit what's meant by "better" between two or more sources to effective resolution or resolvable details, anyone should be able to measure differences. Look for finely detailed scenes throughout Blu-rays or other HD sources.


Measure specific details on screen between the different media . For example, vertically oriented human hairs or distant lettering. Place a ruler with small subdivisions such a millimeters on freeze-framed images. Or use an optical loupe with an installed comparison reticle. This link, entered from within the AVSforum, has loupe/reticle suggestions and other details:
Resolutions of embedded video on the internet


Then, with a width reference for the detail, compare that measured width with a 1920X1080 test pattern on your screen. Find a resolution test pattern with the same width, showing you the measured effective resolution of the detail in so-called TV lines.


Posts 3 and 6 of the link above provide suggestions for Blu-ray test-pattern sources. -- John

Last edited by John Mason; 06-19-2014 at 12:51 PM.
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post #14 of 17 Old 06-21-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TomT99 View Post
So the Kong HD-DVD is noticably better?
All of this depends on a number of factors.
What size is your screen?
How far do you sit?
Do you have optimal lighting conditions?
Do you have good vision?
Is your equipment 720p or 1080p?
Is your equipment calibrated?
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post #15 of 17 Old 06-21-2014, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
All of this depends on a number of factors.
What size is your screen?
How far do you sit?
Do you have optimal lighting conditions?
Do you have good vision?
Is your equipment 720p or 1080p?
Is your equipment calibrated?
120" screen, 1080p, yes to everything else
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post #16 of 17 Old 06-21-2014, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TomT99 View Post
120" screen, 1080p, yes to everything else
I doubt anyone here can definitevly say a better version will be out in the near future (whether it be on Blu-Ray or 4K, etc).

You already have the HD DVD player so it might be worth the effort to open it up and compare vs Blu-Ray. I have no idea what new HD DVD players are even selling for, but if you own the player you can always compare the two formats
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post #17 of 17 Old 06-22-2014, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomT99 View Post
120" screen, 1080p, yes to everything else
Expanding my earlier post above, suspect, for a 120" screen, a tripod-mounted spotting 'scope with a installed reticle would work for comparing the width of test-pattern resolution bursts or other resolution test patterns with finer details throughout a movie Blu-ray with other movie HD images. Or, taking care to avoid screen damage, use a ruler as above. In other words, measuring the maximum effective resolution of the movie details. (Found the 1920p vertical-line burst on the 1st-generation S-M Blu-ray calibration disc I have, plus the next lower-resolution burst, had noticeable aliasing on my 65" plasma until I set the monitor to pixel-by-pixel display mode. The newer 2nd-gen S-M Blu-ray, outlined in the AVS calibration forum, has fully labeled burst patterns as well as 'trumpet-shaped' (wedge) resolution patterns for a broader range of measurements--compared to the limited range of S-M-disc burst resolutions . ) -- John

Last edited by John Mason; 07-10-2014 at 07:46 AM.
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