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post #271 of 18952 Old 06-30-2004, 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by Health Nut
Why? If VC-9 is included, and since some studios already have stuff in WMV-HD, why not start off with VC-9? In fact Microsoft is touting new workstations for VC-9 editing I believe...
Because studios are cheap, and no one is going to buy new hardware if they don't have too. You may think they have to encode in anything other than MPEG-2, but the studios don't.

And I know of no studio that archives in WMV-HD. It's all on HDCAM, D-5, or (forgot the other format) tape format. How it's encoded from that master is up to the studio. But again, even if 50 codecs were offered on day 1 of (insert preferred HD optical format), I can't see Hollywood studios abandoning MPEG-2 in droves to go to another codec, especially in the first few years. They'll use their existing MPEG-2 systems until they feel they have to upgrade.

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post #272 of 18952 Old 06-30-2004, 11:13 AM
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But it really isn't the studios themselves (usually), but the production houses that they hire that use the equipment necessary to compress and master discs. Sony used to do their DVD production stuff in-house, but are now outsourcing to other facilitities, as one example.

I've heard that many state of the art production facilities are capable of using multiple codecs, and have been experimenting with the various codecs on the market for some time.

WAMO is one of them, and (big surprise) is owned by Time-Warner and I'm sure they've been playing with VC-9 for a while.

Other places are Laser Pacific, DDCC, etc.

I would think that if most of them had the choice of which codec to use on a high def. disc, they would probably use the best one for the job.

I also doubt the studios would actually archive to VC-9, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, etc. Those formats are used for cramming the raw data into compact applications such as consumer media (which has less storage space to play with). Usually movies are stored as uncompressed, raw data at 2k or 4k on discs if there was a digital processing step for their film negatives.

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post #273 of 18952 Old 06-30-2004, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
But it really isn't the studios themselves (usually), but the production houses that they hire that use the equipment necessary to compress and master discs. Sony used to do their DVD production stuff in-house, but are now outsourcing to other facilitities, as one example.
You're correct, most is outsourced.

But again, production houses aren't clamoring to buy new equipment especially if it's not a requirement or even necessary. Everyone in Hollywood (production houses included) have significant investment in MPEG-2 that no one I've talked to has indicated that they're in any rush et. al to spend more money to upgrade.

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post #274 of 18952 Old 06-30-2004, 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by amillians
If by evaluate, you meant Sony said "There's no *&*^% way we'll work with MS," then yes, I guess they *did* evaluate it, albeit very, very briefly.
You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You are basing this on what? It can't be anything but your dislike for Sony, because it certainly not based on facts.

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Oh, come on, dislike has nothing to do with it...Fidler and his BIO were instrumental in holding back the evolution of BD this past year...Matsuda's in charge of promoting BD to the studios now, and it lives or dies with him, not Fidler. Fidler fell on the "MPEG2 Forever!" sword, so Matsuda got a clean start.
Exactly my point. Sony is not the only player in the blu-ray camp, but people are quick to show their hatred toward blu-ray based on one man from Sony.

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Huh?!? I guess that's why they've been so vocal on the need to choose the right *new* codec for whatever is to replace DVD...Sony, I mean the BDF, has no choice but to smell the coffee here, and guess what, they have, not that it will change anything.
Vocal? As much as I read up on HD-DVD and Blu-ray, I have not read anything on the studios being vocal on codecs what-so-ever. Given the fact they I could have missed something, the codec talks were probably concerning PQ or HD-DVD in particular. If the studios think that mpeg2 @ high bitrates is the best choice, then blu-ray has the upper hand. However, if they decide that VC-9 or Mpeg4-AVC is the best choice, then blu-ray chances are lowered since HD-DVD can provide the required storage as well. This is the reason why I personally think the BD-ROM format is not approved yet, because they are waiting to see what codecs the studios are going to use. Why? Because most of the BDA members are hardware manf. , and if the studios decides on Mpeg2 then adding VC-9 and H.264 support is just a waste of money.

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Again, if HD-DVD would just poop or get off the pot wrt security, enough studios would get a warm fuzzy to reduce the looming format war to a brief DVD vs. DivX type skirmish worst case. Come on...the *last* thing the studio heads want is "true convergence between CE and IT," as the BDF incredulously proclaimed to all the world this year as a "plus" of BD. The studios are scared as *hell* of a movie disc that can even *fit* inside a PC.
The fact is that both will support the pc, and if HD-DVD doesn't it would be total suicide on their part. Given that the storage is larger for blu-ray and they have a security model in place I think it is a real "plus".


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Let's be honest: what's fueling a lot of animosity towards *both* sides here is the reality that AOD has been vieled in near secrecy since its inception (you don't have to show *me* the security spec, but at least show the studios!) and been dogged with a general misuderstanding of the performance of new codecs, while BD as a CE format has been all repositioning, missed deadlines and questionable politics. We're back to the MMCD vs. SD wars of 1994-1995, only this time it doesn't look like either side is going to budge...but of course, one will...eventually.
I believe the reason AOD is being vield in secrecy is because there is nothing really new about the technology. From the looks of it, it is just DVD with blue lasers. I'm sure that blu-ray have missed deadlines, but were any of them important enough to derail the format, I think not???
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post #275 of 18952 Old 06-30-2004, 07:05 PM
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Marvelous, I don't want to sound argumentative, but what have you got against HD-DVD? The reason I ask is I kind of had the same reaction on the other side of the fence, especially when it came to codecs, and many were against Microsoft.

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post #276 of 18952 Old 07-01-2004, 01:02 AM
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Here`s an update with a link (in Japanese) to the latest info regarding Panasonic`s Blu-Ray recorder for the Japanese market. http://panasonic.jp/dvd/products/bd/spec/01.html
Some highlights:
It has integrated High Definition tuners for the Japanese B.S. (that`s Broadcast Satellite) and Terrestrial Digital (O.T.A.) systems, and an analog NTSC tuner.
It can record on the single layer or soon-to-be-released dual layer Blu-Ray Discs. The dual layer discs can fit 4.5 hours of HD video at the B.S. Japanese Satellite bitrate of 24mbps MPEG2. Or, 6 hours of HD at the Terrrestrial Digital bitrate of 17mbps MPEG2.
I`m uncertain what compatibility this player could have with potential BD-ROM software releases. Ideally, there would be a way for the firmware to be updated in this player and the earlier Sony. Not sure if that would be practical though.
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding amongst the Blu-Ray bashers here. Blu-ray is at first and foremost a recording technology for HD. So it obviously has to handle Mpeg2. I think a similar product utilizing Blu-Ray released in America or elsewhere would have the potential of recording even many hours more HD if it was simply acting as a "bit bucket" recording the raw data from an HD tuner of a Voom? mpeg4, Vc-9, whatever codec for example, or other lower bitrate broadcast, over a firewire connection.
I also think in Japan, people are likely less interested (desparate?) in getting software released for purchase in an H.D. format. Just look at D- Theater. There has yet to be a single D-Theater release of anything in Japan. And there are far more manufacturers and consumers of DVHS decks than in the U.S. There is just so much in the way of available broadcast HD (OTA and Satellite) movies, documentaries, etc. I don`t see the same "urgency" I get everytime I visit this and similar American/Euro forums.

Also perhaps interesting to those in the States, there is no DVI output on either the Panasonic, or the Sony Blu-Ray released last year. In fact, I have never seeen DVI or HDMI on any of the numerous, numerous HD receivers and recorders released in Japan to date. Sometimes I wonder how the American counterparts of essentially the same company can make such a big deal out of DVI on HD products, when in Japan where there is a much higher penetration of HD products with no DVI, it is a non-issue. Aside from a very, very, few recent plasma screens, and projectors, there is generally almost always, only a D4 (Japanese equivalent of a component connector) input on HDTV`s in Japan. There doesn`t seem to be any paranoia here regarding future "downconversion" of analog component outputs
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post #277 of 18952 Old 07-01-2004, 12:51 PM
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http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/30/tech...tsushita.reut/

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Matsushita has DVD recorder for D-TV

$2,770 device can hold 4.5 hours of digital TV programing or 63 hours of analog programing
June 30, 2004: 10:02 AM EDT

TOKYO (Reuters) - Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd., maker of Panasonic brand products, unveiled a DVD recorder Wednesday based on Blu-ray technology which can read and store data at the much higher densities needed for recording digital television programs.

The move gives Matsushita (MC: down $0.31 to $14.29, Research, Estimates) an edge in the battle against a rival technology supported by fellow Japanese electronics makers NEC Corp (NIPNY: down $0.10 to $7.12, Research, Estimates). and Toshiba Corp.

The ability to record high-definition TV programs is becoming important as countries around the world are set to shift to digital from analog programming.

Recordable DVD discs compatible with Matsushita's new recorder have a capacity of 25 or 50 gigabytes, compared with current 4.7 gigabyte discs. A 50-gigabyte disc can hold 4.5 hours of digital programming at the highest quality or 63 hours of analog programming.

Matsushita is a member of a consortium that backs Blu-ray, which competes with another blue laser-based technology known as HD DVD. It is the second firm to launch a Blu-ray DVD recorder after Sony Corp (SNE: down $0.04 to $37.92, Research, Estimates). did so last year.

NEC and Toshiba, which back HD-DVD, have no plans to launch blue laser DVD recorders until 2005.

Blue light, with a shorter wavelength than the red laser used in conventional DVD recorders, can read and store data at the higher densities needed for high-definition recordings.

Matsushita said the device is expected to be priced at about $2,770 and 50 gigabyte discs at about $70 each. The recorder is equipped with a built-in tuner for digital terrestrial and satellite broadcasting, as well as terrestrial analog broadcasting.

It will be introduced in the Japanese market on July 31 in time for the Aug. 13 start of the Olympics in Greece, which is expected to drive demand for digital televisions and DVD recorders. Matsushita said it has no current plans to sell the DVD recorder overseas.

Japan has already started offering terrestrial digital television programming in its largest cities, while U.S. television stations are required by law to switch to digital signals by the end of 2006, when 85 percent of American homes will be able to receive the higher-quality, crisper signals.

Other companies that support Blu-ray include Korea's Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., the Netherlands' Philips (PHG: up $0.29 to $27.17, Research, Estimates) Electronics and U.S. company Dell Inc (DELL: up $0.02 to $35.67, Research, Estimates).

In the previous battle over home-use recording technology, Matsushita and Sony, the world's top two consumer electronics makers, played their video cassette format off against each other, with Matsushita's VHS triumphing over Sony's Betamax.
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post #278 of 18952 Old 07-01-2004, 01:00 PM
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They better have HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players and recorders (with finalized specs.) down in the sub $1,000 level and much cheaper discs by the time they reach these shores or it won't matter because few will be sold.

Since HD-DVD is not a radically new system like Blu-Ray I think only greed would keep players and discs in the higher retail stratosphere upon roll out.

I do hope manufacturers get HD-DVD and Blu-Ray transports right the first time without buggy operations, chroma errors, macroblocking, etc. etc. that have plagued DVD's since day one (and mostly haven't been fixed yet!).
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post #279 of 18952 Old 07-01-2004, 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by EvanB
They better have HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players and recorders (with finalized specs.) down in the sub $1,000 level and much cheaper discs by the time they reach these shores or it won't matter because few will be sold.

Since HD-DVD is not a radically new system like Blu-Ray I think only greed would keep players and discs in the higher retail stratosphere upon roll out.

I do hope manufacturers get HD-DVD and Blu-Ray transports right the first time without buggy operations, chroma errors, macroblocking, etc. etc. that have plagued DVD's since day one (and mostly haven't been fixed yet!).
I agree with everything you said. Under $1000 would be ideal but I could afford a little more... not no $3000-4000 though. ;)
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post #280 of 18952 Old 07-01-2004, 05:23 PM
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Bottom Line:

1080p, (eliminating interlacing once and for all), Video Quality (including "what happens to the content between telecine and encode"), Audio Quality (providing lossless compression to provide identical to master quality and avoid 'which lossy codec degrades the least', New features (discrete side channels, discrete tactile transducer channels).
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post #281 of 18952 Old 07-01-2004, 06:29 PM
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MGM has another suitor:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr..._id=1000559623

The most efficient path is seldom a straight line.
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post #282 of 18952 Old 07-01-2004, 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr
MGM has another suitor:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr..._id=1000559623
Yeah I read somewhere awhile back that Warner was interested in buying MGM as well but apparently the two studio heads don't get along to well. Regardless, money talks. I just hope Sony has got more to spend. ;)
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post #283 of 18952 Old 07-01-2004, 07:57 PM
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HD-DVD/Blu-Ray without High Resolution audio is like sex without an orgam.
Nice, I wish I could add that too my sig file too....
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post #284 of 18952 Old 07-01-2004, 09:27 PM
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Thanks. I just hope that Hollywood gives us our orgasm while they're having sex with (or is that screwing?) us.

The most efficient path is seldom a straight line.
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post #285 of 18952 Old 07-02-2004, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Health Nut
Bottom Line:

1080p, (eliminating interlacing once and for all), Video Quality (including "what happens to the content between telecine and encode"), Audio Quality (providing lossless compression to provide identical to master quality and avoid 'which lossy codec degrades the least', New features (discrete side channels, discrete tactile transducer channels).
And sex with orgasm:D Wait, this could almost replace sex with orgasm !;) :D

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post #286 of 18952 Old 07-02-2004, 05:07 AM
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Marvelous,

Like it or not, Sony is the flag bearer for Blu-ray. They've taken it upon themselves to serve as the driving force (heavy press, BIO, etc.), and for obvious reason...they have the most to gain--or to lose--with BD. And, like it or not, flag bearers have a bad habit of becoming lightning rods in stormy weather...

And, like it or not, Sony, er, I mean the BDF, pi$$sed off a lot of industry types by trying to play both sides of the field in The DVD Forum next generation format voting process. If Sony et all feel that The DVD Forum is passe and that the BDF/BDA is the future, they should step down...to maintain their passive/aggressive presence, without even ever formally submitting their spec for consideration (outside of physical application trials), is simply dirty politics. Force change from within or do an end run around the blockage...but don't try to do both, much less with a straight face.

Sony is an easy target, I agree, but this time, I think they deserve the rebuke. Regardless of the pluses/minuses of BD vs. HD-DVD, dirty politics doesn't help win industry concensus, and only industry consensus is going to deliver a single format...and we all know that dual formats will be suicide. If Sony hadn't backed down in 1995 from it's ridiculously self-serving MMCD stance, we'd have seen two DVD wanna-be formats launched...and the success of "DVD" as we know it today would likely be radically different.

Sony, through CTS, is betting that their "we're going to release movies on BD-ROM no matter what even though we really haven't said what BD-ROM is going to be" stance is truly going to force the hand of every other studio to support BD in the interests of avoiding a costly and confusing format war...such strongarm tatics don't always work (hello? MMCD? is that you?). Sony et all had their chance to serve up BD in the proper forum; they declined to so do. We'll see what happens...too bad IBM won't step in, smack some heads around and save the day for consumers...again.

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post #287 of 18952 Old 07-02-2004, 12:14 PM
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I remember the DVD format war of 1995 (or was it 94?). It seemed that most companies that were backing Toshiba just wanted anyone but Sony. It seems they are still sore about having to pay royalties for all these years for the successfull CD format. Of course the Sony version of DVD (mmcd) was superior to Toshiba's SD as was Beta to VHS and SACD to DVD-A. But Sony was the one forced to back down.

Back when the format finally launched in the spring of 97, almost all releases then were the Toshiba type, Single layer/single sided or single layer/dual sided. Funny thing is, almost all DVD's today are single sided dual layers discs (ala mmcd).

I don't care who wins as long as we get HD-DVD of some sort. Ideally it would be Blu-Ray with WM9 and High resolution audio, but I'll take what I can get for now.
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post #288 of 18952 Old 07-04-2004, 09:53 PM
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Marvelous, I don't want to sound argumentative, but what have you got against HD-DVD? The reason I ask is I kind of had the same reaction on the other side of the fence, especially when it came to codecs, and many were against Microsoft.
I have nothing againt HD-DVD, but I just don't think it is as good as Blu-ray. The only thing that might be better is the choice of codecs of pre-recorded movies, and that is still open. I haven't did any test concerning the PQ of any codec, but mpeg2 @ 24mbps with lossless audio is possible with blu-ray. That should provide outstanding PQ and superb audio, if anyone says different is just a fanboy. HD-DVD with VC-9 "may" have a "slight" edge in PQ for some people, but I just don't think that outwieghts the pluses of blu-ray. To record HD you still need Mpeg2 and extra storage is a big plus for computers. Having everything work together seamlessly is a biggest plus of them all however. If HD-DVD wins the format war then we are stuck with a far inferior format for recording and storage, and the pre-recorded material "may" be "slightly" better. If Blu-ray win the war, we get a superior recording and storage format, and pre-recored material "may" be "slightly" worst.

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Marvelous,

Like it or not, Sony is the flag bearer for Blu-ray. They've taken it upon themselves to serve as the driving force (heavy press, BIO, etc.), and for obvious reason...they have the most to gain--or to lose--with BD. And, like it or not, flag bearers have a bad habit of becoming lightning rods in stormy weather...

And, like it or not, Sony, er, I mean the BDF, pi$$sed off a lot of industry types by trying to play both sides of the field in The DVD Forum next generation format voting process. If Sony et all feel that The DVD Forum is passe and that the BDF/BDA is the future, they should step down...to maintain their passive/aggressive presence, without even ever formally submitting their spec for consideration (outside of physical application trials), is simply dirty politics. Force change from within or do an end run around the blockage...but don't try to do both, much less with a straight face.
Why should they not be able to be in the group that supports "This Generation of Movies" and a group that supports "Next Generation of Movies" just because some members(not a majority) of the DVD Forum Steering commitee didn't even want the DVD Forum to support the "Next Generation of Movies"? It's the same as holding positions on a VHS Commitee(if there is such a thing) and the DVD Forum. This is what people is failing to understand. Sony along with many other DVD Forum members is doing nothing wrong here, they should be able to keep their position because they have alot investing in current DVDs.

I think the companies that joined the BDA did the correct thing by starting a group that specifically covers the next generation of movies and storage. NEC and Toshiba should have did the same thing, instead they are using the DVD Forum to milk their investment.

Quote:
Sony is an easy target, I agree, but this time, I think they deserve the rebuke. Regardless of the pluses/minuses of BD vs. HD-DVD, dirty politics doesn't help win industry concensus, and only industry consensus is going to deliver a single format...and we all know that dual formats will be suicide. If Sony hadn't backed down in 1995 from it's ridiculously self-serving MMCD stance, we'd have seen two DVD wanna-be formats launched...and the success of "DVD" as we know it today would likely be radically different.
This is the same as above, there is no reason why Sony and the others shouldn't have a spot on the DVD forum since they have alot invested in DVDs. If a majority of members of the steering commitee didn't think that the DVD forum should handle the next generation of movies then the DVD Forum should not be trying to create it. If anyone is playing dirty politics it is the other members, because they are the ones that are changing rules just to get their way. I'm sure NEC and Toshiba(since they have pretty good relations with Sony) were offered a spot in the BDF, but refused because they were working on something themselves.

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Sony, through CTS, is betting that their "we're going to release movies on BD-ROM no matter what even though we really haven't said what BD-ROM is going to be" stance is truly going to force the hand of every other studio to support BD in the interests of avoiding a costly and confusing format war...such strongarm tatics don't always work (hello? MMCD? is that you?). Sony et all had their chance to serve up BD in the proper forum; they declined to so do. We'll see what happens...too bad IBM won't step in, smack some heads around and save the day for consumers...again.
Here is the talk about the "Proper Forum" again. There is no proper forum. The DVD forum was created to rule over DVDs, and the BDA was created to rule over BD. I along with the majority of the DVD steering commitee at one time see no reason why Blu-ray should have been submitted to the DVD Forum.
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post #289 of 18952 Old 07-05-2004, 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by Marvelous
I haven't did any test concerning the PQ of any codec, but mpeg2 @ 24mbps with lossless audio is possible with blu-ray. That should provide outstanding PQ and superb audio, if anyone says different is just a fanboy.
Ugh. Let's see--you say you haven't done any testing of any codec, but you're confident that MPEG2 "provide outstanding PQ" vis a vis other codec options at other rates, and that anyone daring to assert otherwise is a fanboy. Huh...so I guess that would make the BDA a bunch of fanboys right about now. The simple reality is that the BDF, under the direction of Sony and the extension of policy by Fidler, made a terrible political decision to back MPEG2 exclusively, and now they are going to fix that in the BD-ROM spec.
Quote:
Originally posted by Marvelous
It's the same as holding positions on a VHS Commitee(if there is such a thing) and the DVD Forum. This is what people is failing to understand. Sony along with many other DVD Forum members is doing nothing wrong here, they should be able to keep their position because they have alot investing in current DVDs. I think the companies that joined the BDA did the correct thing by starting a group that specifically covers the next generation of movies and storage. NEC and Toshiba should have did the same thing, instead they are using the DVD Forum to milk their investment....I along with the majority of the DVD steering commitee at one time see no reason why Blu-ray should have been submitted to the DVD Forum.
Oh, puh-leez. Sony sits on The DVD Forum, the very same DVD Forum that in April 2002 created the WG-11 working group to assess the use of blue laser-based formats for creating the successor to red laser DVDs--the first step towards defining what would become HD-DVD. After the formation of the BDF in May 2002 (wow, what a coincidence!) Sony et all submitted BD to WG-11.

Sony *did* use The DVD Forum to try and get BD in the mix for testing for HD-DVD, but never stepped up to the plate for formal consideration, deciding after the review of WG-11 to instead do an end run around the political process, all the while maintaining their (non)voting status for HD-DVD selection. How can anyone in the world, outside of a Sony employee, not see that Sony was actively playing both sides of the fence? With WG-11, The DVD Forum elected to create HD-DVD, Sony knew that, and Sony and its BD partners were--at one time--active participants in The DVD Forum's quest to create HD-DVD. The AOD group played by the agreed upon rules and "won" by default, even despite the petty abstention strategy of the BDF gang.

Let me make this clear: I have no hate for BD as a physical spec, I only have reservations for it as an application spec (we'll see). I also question the assumptions on BD manufacturing costs, but that's another topic. I just think that Sony has a history of unsuccesfully trying to cram it's "standards" down the world's throat (e.g., SACD, PDD, etc.), that another unsuccesful Sony "standard" in the face of the official HD-DVD standard will spell doom for a next generation movie delivery launch and that the BDF did a bad, bad thing. Dr. Bell, we need some heads smacked, please.

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post #290 of 18952 Old 07-05-2004, 07:37 PM
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Ugh. Let's see--you say you haven't done any testing of any codec, but you're confident that MPEG2 "provide outstanding PQ" vis a vis other codec options at other rates, and that anyone daring to assert otherwise is a fanboy. Huh...so I guess that would make the BDA a bunch of fanboys right about now. The simple reality is that the BDF, under the direction of Sony and the extension of policy by Fidler, made a terrible political decision to back MPEG2 exclusively, and now they are going to fix that in the BD-ROM spec.


Hmm, I said "Outstanding PQ" not "The Best PQ". And while I haven't did any test with the codecs personally I have read on how they performed. Lastly, the mpeg2 excelusively for BD-ROM was not set in stone and that is why there is no BD-ROM format right now. Back when the tested the codecs H.264 performed horribly compared to mpeg2, and while I haven't read the exact reports about vc-9 the BDF decided that it wasn't reasonable to implement because it didn't offer better benifits. Will the improved PQ be enough to get the new codecs approved? I don't know.

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Oh, puh-leez. Sony sits on The DVD Forum, the very same DVD Forum that in April 2002 created the WG-11 working group to assess the use of blue laser-based formats for creating the successor to red laser DVDs--the first step towards defining what would become HD-DVD. After the formation of the BDF in May 2002 (wow, what a coincidence!) Sony et all submitted BD to WG-11.

Sony *did* use The DVD Forum to try and get BD in the mix for testing for HD-DVD, but never stepped up to the plate for formal consideration, deciding after the review of WG-11 to instead do an end run around the political process, all the while maintaining their (non)voting status for HD-DVD selection. How can anyone in the world, outside of a Sony employee, not see that Sony was actively playing both sides of the fence? With WG-11, The DVD Forum elected to create HD-DVD, Sony knew that, and Sony and its BD partners were--at one time--active participants in The DVD Forum's quest to create HD-DVD. The AOD group played by the agreed upon rules and "won" by default, even despite the petty abstention strategy of the BDF gang.
So what is your point in stating this? Is it that since Blu-ray at one time considered submitting it, but then reasoned that it probably be better off going about it on it own, that is was the proper thing to do? Just like just like Laserdisc did and just like DVDs did? The BDA is doing no more than any group did in the past.

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Let me make this clear: I have no hate for BD as a physical spec, I only have reservations for it as an application spec (we'll see). I also question the assumptions on BD manufacturing costs, but that's another topic. I just think that Sony has a history of unsuccesfully trying to cram it's "standards" down the world's throat (e.g., SACD, PDD, etc.), that another unsuccesful Sony "standard" in the face of the official HD-DVD standard will spell doom for a next generation movie delivery launch and that the BDF did a bad, bad thing. Dr. Bell, we need some heads smacked, please.
The official HD-DVD standard is just that, a new DVD standard. However, just because DVDs ruled this generation doesn't mean that it suppose to rule the next.

Also at worst you will get up to 24mbps mpeg2, how bad is that considering all the other pluses of the format?
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post #291 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 06:02 AM
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Back when the tested the codecs H.264 performed horribly compared to mpeg2, and while I haven't read the exact reports about vc-9 the BDF decided that it wasn't reasonable to implement because it didn't offer better benifits. Will the improved PQ be enough to get the new codecs approved? I don't know.

Also at worst you will get up to 24mbps mpeg2, how bad is that considering all the other pluses of the format?
1) Physical Storage space of 50 Gig compared to 30 Gig is not a plus unless you care about recording MPEG-2. My overriding concern is for achieving the best playback media for Hollywood movies. OTA HD material is still very limited, 1080i or 720p, not the best quality, not the highest bitrate it should be, and will likely be riddled with NO RECORD FLAGS. Don't get me wrong, physical storage capacity is always an advantage, but not if it is used improperly, or there is a media with slightly less physical storage, but and advanced video compression codec. But the real answer cannot be DEFINITIVELY stated without fair and thorough comparisons of VC-9, H.264, and MPEG-2

2) I don't remember reading about H.264 and the word "horrible" in comparison coming to mind. In any case, thank-goodness for competition because without it, there is no question in my mind that these EXECS would look to improve the format any more than the minimum they felt they had to gain acceptance. The words "ACCEPTABLE" come to mind. In fact, you have to love the enthusiasm used in reviewing codecs in the past: A) ACCEPTABLE B) NOT ACCEPTABLE. It would be great to have a thorough analysis and comparison of each codec at various bitrates on how they handle the various material. You would think this would be published in a peer reviewed scientific forum of some sort.

Another point would be PEAK VIDEO BANDWITH. MPEG-2 is running at rates that don't provide for much, if any, peak bandwidth. Assuming that all compression is VBR (variable bit rate), you would think VC-9 would excel in this regard: VC-9 should be able to provide ANY necessary peak bandwidth for the most difficult to compression scenes. I don't think we can say this about MPEG-2. Also, does the issue of peak bandwidth needed by MPEG-2 really encourage the use of lossless audio with MPEG-2? Obviously, the goal is to provide the highest quality film/video and audio simultaneously, but without one hindering the others peak performance. I'm certain they just set limitation to the peak banwidth available in VBR... so you would think VC-9 would have a big advantage in this regard. VC-9 might average 12-14 MBit/sec while achieving max quality, but be able to peak much higher. I would think VC-9 would have a significant advantage on difficult scenes.

BOTTOM LINE:

1080p, (eliminating interlacing once and for all), Video Quality (including "what happens to the content between telecine and encode"), Audio Quality (providing lossless compression to provide identical to master quality and avoid 'which lossy codec degrades the least', New features (discrete side channels, discrete tactile transducer channels).
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post #292 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 06:21 AM
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I am rooting for both...Let them both come to market. Other than the cost of buying 2 units, I see no disadvantage to this. Eventually, the better format will shake itself out and the other will wither. Going on theory and paper as to which will be better is fruitless. I want to see them both in my theater, then make a choice.

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post #293 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 06:24 AM
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Physical Storage space of 50 Gig compared to 30 Gig is not a plus unless you care about recording MPEG-2. My overriding concern is for achieving the best playback media for Hollywood movies...
AMEN!

The voice of reason prevails...

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #294 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 06:31 AM
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Hey guys been following this thread for a bit now, if you guys want to do a test of these codecs I could possibly see doing it I have tons of 2k footage since I do effects for movies, first let me see if I have teh permission to do encoding tests, which I am sure I can get.
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post #295 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by thebland
I am rooting for both...Let them both come to market. Other than the cost of buying 2 units, I see no disadvantage to this. Eventually, the better format will shake itself out and the other will wither. Going on theory and paper as to which will be better is fruitless. I want to see them both in my theater, then make a choice.
Unless they cancel each other like SACD and DVD-Audio have effectively done.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
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post #296 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 06:47 AM
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Space 2001,

I'm game. Full 1080 24P encoding with no additional vertical-pass filtering. MAXIMUM detail and let's see what the various codecs and rates have to offer...

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #297 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 06:48 AM
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k cool just need a place to store them
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post #298 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 06:49 AM
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I am rooting for both...Let them both come to market. Other than the cost of buying 2 units, I see no disadvantage to this.
Admittedly, I do like the aspect of competition, because that is what makes them pay attention to the consumer. (Unlike COMSHAFT, I mean COMCAST) who has a monopoly in my opinion. Funny how a customer service rep can actually yell at me ... must be nice to have no competition). Reality is that Hollywood Studios other than Warner (HD-DVD) and Columbia Tristar (BD) are unlikely going to release material in ANY format until there is a clear winner (Unless one of them buys MGM, but that is still only 3 studios split among 2 formats.) I think Hollywood is clear about not participating until there is one format.

Assuming I sell my CRT in 2 years and buy a 1080p digital projector, I guess an HDMI switcher should be a lot simpler than my EXTRON switch box, which already has only two inputs (and I have three RGBHV devices).

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Unless they cancel each other like SACD and DVD-Audio have effectively done.
I think this is a totally reasonable scenario. It would happen like that to some degree... Look how much material is out there today for SACD and DVD-Audio... pathetic.

Recording MPEG-2 OTA, oh joy! OTA HD material is still very limited, 1080i or 720p, not the best quality, not the highest bitrate it should be, and will likely be riddled with NO RECORD FLAGS. Why do I pay for this stuff ?
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post #299 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 07:01 AM
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trying to get windwos codecs install properly on my compositing software, but dosn't show up in the rendering windw
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post #300 of 18952 Old 07-06-2004, 07:25 AM
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right now just tryint to figure out how to get these codecs into my Compositing sofware, beacsue right now, I can't get wm9 into it, if I have to render out anything there will be a loss in quality, so until I figure this out, right now its a no go. sorry
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