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post #451 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by Palladin
BTW guys, let's not forget that we don't want to see the demise of HD-DVD too quickly, because as long as there's a viable competitor (even if it collapses at the 3/4 turn on the track), this will give BDA incentive to make it better, priced more reasonably, and out the door sooner, then if it were unchallenged.
That's probably the best comment in this thread and a good reminder to all of us who want the best replacement to DVD possible.
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post #452 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by 720p
That's probably the best comment in this thread and a good reminder to all of us who want the best replacement to DVD possible.
Agree. And I believe it's Blue Ray that will be the one that loses out in the race. With Microsoft, the DVD council, and 2 major manufacturers backing DVD HD, it'll be tough for anyone to justify Blue Ray to the mass DVD market (especially at the projected hardware/software the costs).
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post #453 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by 720p
Do a search, a single laser that can read CDs, DVDs, and Blu-ray discs has already been invented.
So has a fuel cell. You just can't afford it.
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This kind of reasoning is laughable. So you're saying that any company that wants to start a new video format has to go through the DVD Forum to be legit? Why don't we just outlaw the English language while we're at it since we all know the English language wasn't the first. How dare we speak another language other than that which was provided for us first. :rolleyes: Seriously though, I don't understand your reasoning. Don't think I'm picking on just you as I've heard this argument a hundred times before and always get a kick out of it.
The whole point of the commentary is that Sony always has to be different, always has to throw a monkey wrench into things. They can't follow along even if, especially if, someone else has a good idea. HD-DVD is just about perfect so Sony does something else. It's just plain annoying. Does their have to be a format war every damn time? Everyone else signed up for CD. Sony can't once go along with anyone else? Beta, MiniDisc, SACD, how many more failed or failing redundand formats do we need?

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post #454 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by Alimental
So has a fuel cell. You just can't afford it.

The whole point of the commentary is that Sony always has to be different, always has to throw a monkey wrench into things.
Amen amen.

Can you say Betamax - and we know how that story ended, don't we?

Sony loves to use proprietary technology and design - in theory, ot maximize profits. They don't have a good track record at realizing that theory.
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post #455 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Alimental
The whole point of the commentary is that Sony always has to be different, always has to throw a monkey wrench into things.
Oh yeah, I forgot Sony was the only member of the BFA. Thanks for joining the other Sony-bashers in the blame game. I'm glad Sony has a track record of trying their own thing. Competition is good for consumers.
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post #456 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by HDTVFAN0001
Can you say Betamax - and we know how that story ended, don't we?
It's a bit silly and early to refer to Blu-ray as the next Betamax don't you think? Blu-ray has existed for over a year already. HD DVD is vaporware thus far.
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post #457 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by 720p
It's a bit silly and early to refer to Blu-ray as the next Betamax don't you think?
It's a Sony - only Baloney. :D
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post #458 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 04:11 PM
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You just can't afford it.
Oh please, what evidence do you have that a multi-format head is going to be prohibitively expensive? But in fact, there is good reason to believe it will be only slightly more expensive than a BD-only head---the universal head developed by Sony has only 1 more part than their BD-only head, and it uses a single three-wavelength laser diode. They're predicting a 2006 release but if the market demands it I'll bet one will arrive sooner.

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post #459 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 04:19 PM
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It's a Sony - only Baloney.
Oh my, how can we not but collapse under HDTVFAN0001's mammoth wit?

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post #460 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by Alimental
Beta, MiniDisc, SACD, how many more failed or failing redundand formats do we need?

I'll give you 3 more: Memery Stick, Memory Stick Duo, Memory Stick Pro.

Sony, the one and Ony.

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post #461 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 06:26 PM
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You guys would have a point if Sony were the only company pushing Blu-Ray. Too bad for you that's not the case :)

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post #462 of 18952 Old 08-07-2004, 08:12 PM
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I think its time to get back to the bottom line...
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post #463 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 06:36 AM
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Michael I think the point is simply that Sony has an amply demonstrated track record of veering into proprietary formats for just about every medium we've seen. If they're not at the center of the IP for a given medium, they develop their own version - sometimes with the help of others, sometimes alone. Of course in the process they try to get other players on board - why wouldn't they after all? The market has shown time and again with this stuff that it's hardware + software that = success (not to mention the right pricing model). Anyway, in some cases Sony does this more successfully than others. And no I'm not arguing that BD is proprietary to Sony per se. But the principal applies b/c the fact of the matter is that Sony stands to gain more if, say 10 years from now, BD is as ubiquitous as DVD is now, and HD-DVD is just a memory.

BTW I'm not criticizing Sony for doing this (as some prior posters mave have been). Business is business so of course they're going to try to take over the world!! :)

TM

PS - I want the largest capacity, the best codecs, the cheapest price, and the widest, earliest availability :)

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post #464 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 07:55 AM
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PS - I want the largest capacity, the best codecs, the cheapest price, and the widest, earliest availability
Now that sounds more constructive. Let's get back to the point that the current competition between HD-DVD and Blu Ray is definitely constructive for consumers at this point. The problem as we have been discussing is the inevitable need for only one format. So let's hope HD-DVD pushes Blu Ray to be the best it can be before fizzling out :) In all seriousness, since WM-9/H.264 is so efficient and is still able to maintain the same overall quality (+/-) as very high bitrate MPEG-2, I'm more concerned about the bottom line than anything else. However, don't forget that Blu-Ray has the potential to reach 100 gig by adding additional layers in the future. I don't think the cost to consumers is significant any longer. Besides, with 50 Gig to play with instead of 30 Gig (HD-DVD) you'll still be more apt to get more new features, things like discrete side channels, higher A/V quality, etc... The bottom line is still better served by Blu Ray... I just wish the studios, such as Columbia Tristar would get a little more creative and allow for lots of flexibility in number of audio channels that are able to be provided. If Sony would just come out with more exciting news besides just the fact of adding VC-9/H.264, that would be great. Wonder who is going to buy MGM?
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post #465 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 10:18 AM
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If they're not at the center of the IP for a given medium, they develop their own version - sometimes with the help of others, sometimes alone.
Well sure, but in all the other failed examples you quoted, which had the benefit of prominent help from other companies---and not just small companies but sizeable ones like HP and Dell?
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But the principal applies b/c the fact of the matter is that Sony stands to gain more if, say 10 years from now, BD is as ubiquitous as DVD is now, and HD-DVD is just a memory.
And the parties behind the HD-DVD technology stand to gain if it works out the other way. All of this is being driven by nothing but profit---no altruistic desire to simply provide a service to common man with an advanced entertainment format.

All I'm saying is that even a stopped watch is right twice a day. Sony has misfired a number of times, but they've had some hits too. I guarantee that your average consumer is not going to be thinking "Betamax" when they decide on a HD-DVD format. Instead they're going to be thinking about what their local Blockbuster is most likely to carry...

Once again, I say, let's get a little pool going :)

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post #466 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HDTVFAN0001


Can you say Betamax - and we know how that story ended, don't we?
Can you say Playstation? Oh ****, I forgot, that one ended differently.... :D

God forbid Sony (and other companies) try to innovate rather than cowtow to an inferior product.

Quote:
And I believe it's Blue Ray that will be the one that loses out in the race. With Microsoft, the DVD council, and 2 major manufacturers backing DVD HD, it'll be tough for anyone to justify Blue Ray to the mass DVD market (especially at the projected hardware/software the costs).


I can't stop laughing at this......

- Toshiba is the only major consumer electronics manufacturer. NEC hasn't had a consumer product that was mildly successful in over a decade.

- MS doesn't manufacture consumer electronics aside from the XBox - and that ain't doing terribly well outside the U.S.

Toshiba one the battle last time because they had all the major consumer electronics companies lined up behind Super Disc (aka DVD). The tables are turned this time, with all the major consumer electronics companies lined up behind Blu-Ray not to mention the largest PC manufacturers in the world. Oh, did I mention the movie studio Sony owns?

Blu-Ray is a lot further ahead of being the successful format than you think.

-> No longer looking for Hi-Vision LDs <-

(I buried that format finally)

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post #467 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 01:40 PM
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Michael,

If I'm not mistaken, minidisc had Sharp aboard (who is either a little or very prominent, depending on which product/market you're talking about) and most of the others had/have Phillips (same caveat as Sharp). In any case, I believe their revenues measure up nicely in the grand scheme of things.

You wrote "they're going to be thinking about what their local Blockbuster is most likely to carry..." and that's exactly my fear - that 2 competing formats will cause Blockbuster to carry neither, or at the very least will relegate it to the side room (remember laserdisc? I do - I own hundreds :( - or even better, been to a Tower to look at DVD-A or SACD?), or at the very very least will serve not to help but to hinder its acceptance into the market. 2 competing formats = foolishness.

At the end of the day, as you say Michael this is not about innovation and striving to produce superior products (sorry bwiklem), it's about generating superior bottom lines. No one is complaining about that (at least not I), but what's so frustrating is that the resulting battle leaves us w/o ubiquitous, cheap HD media as soon as we'd otherwise have it. So in that sense I'm being completely selfish.

BTW Bwiklem you seem to be overlooking the fact that there is a rather large studio that is almost as tied to HD DVD as CTS is to BD...as well as the fact that there are several major mfrs in the HD DVD camp. Please understanding I'm not advocating either format, just playing devils advocate. There is plenty of reason to envision scenarios where one or the other comes out ahead. My only personal goal is for the best single format to be agreed upon prior to coming to market. As much as a free marketer as I am, there are clearly certain instances where letting the market decide leads to slower adoption, higher prices, lesser availability, etc (SACD and DVD-A being a salient example). And having recently shot a feature in HD and screening dailies on a (consumer) digital PJ, I can't overstate how excited I am for this stuff to be at the checkout line at 7-11...

TM

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post #468 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 02:44 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by anthonymoody
Quote:

BTW Bwiklem you seem to be overlooking the fact that there is a rather large studio that is almost as tied to HD DVD as CTS is to BD...as well as the fact that there are several major mfrs in the HD DVD camp.
I haven't overlooked the studio supporting HD-DVD.

There's no doubt that some manufacturers are supporting HD-DVD, but none that I'd consider major (that have publicly voiced support). Toshiba is a major manufacturer, and NEC is a major manufacturer but not at the consumer level (Toshiba is at the consumer level).

Matsushita (Panasonic), Samsung, LG, Phillips, and Sony are all major manufacturers and outnumber the HD-DVD major manufacturers that support that format.

As for Warner (studio supporting HD-DVD), it's a natural progression because they (Warner) will continue to collect royalties on HD-DVD, whereas other studios (not counting Sony/Columbia) will not. Since Columbia is owned by Sony, it's a wash, and Sony naturally collects royalties and has a built in line of content to support any format they introduce.

I understand your playing devils advocate, and that makes these discussions interesting. However, unlike some other posts, your post contains logical arguments and basis to continue the debate/discussion.

-> No longer looking for Hi-Vision LDs <-

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post #469 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 03:52 PM
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I want to take issue with a few bits of nonsense here.

First, without anything resembling a production-ready drive available for HD-DVD, it's ludicrous to call the players cheaper than for BluRay. Dell and HP can be counted on to buy tens of millions of drives a year for PCs alone. Whatever edge HD-DVD drives / players have now -- and there isn't any in cost that is meaningful even if one exists -- would be swamped beyond comprehension by the two largest PC makers in the world (who will likely lead the next 5 to make an obvious choice) putting economies of scale off the map for BluRay.

Second, uh Sony, the company that invented modern consumer electronics. They have had well-documented failures to produce standards. That said, they and Philips devised CD -- far and away the most successful digital format devised. They won the videogame wars -- as noted above -- from their entry at least until today. They devised what was easily the most successful camcorder format (Hi8, I believe it was called).

With respect to BluRay, they got everyone in CE who matters to join up with them: Matsushita, Samsung, Hitachi, LG, Pioneer, Mitsubishi, Philips, Sharp, Thomson... That's the largest companies in Japan (save one), the two Korean giants, the two European giants to join forces with them.

Calling this a Sony format is disingenuous at best and dumb-as-a-rock stupid at worst.

This doesn't even mention getting the two largest PC companies -- by far -- on board.

Essentially the only reason Toshiba went off and did HD-DVD was a decade of bitterness that Warner -- and others, but especially Warner -- forced Toshiba to compromise over DVD. Toshiba was -- back then -- trying to dominate the royalty stream and was ready to segment the market in two. That decision would've killed DVD. Warner, et al. brought them to the table and made them cut a deal that was significantly less profitable to Toshiba.

A decade plus later, they are hell bent on ensuring it doesn't happen again. But this time Toshiba has no cards to get a piece of the action. Instead of trying to influence BluRay from within, they decided to get an insignificant tech company in NEC (sure they make and brand a of stuff, but they lead in almost no category) to try to create a standards war.

They enlisted the DVD Forum and are able to stay in the game as a result. The DVD Forum has no actual ability to influence anyone in particular, but no matter. They sucked up to Microsoft to make it seem like OS-level support from an OS that won't ship until late 2006 or later is somehow important to a format that hasn't yet even had a PC-based data spec fully baked.

My $1,000 is on the table. And I'll offer an additional $500 for anyone who'll take this bet: HD-DVD will never reach 20% of the combined HD-DVD / BluRay market if both formats reach the market. Note, if BluRay never makes it you win the bet. If HD-DVD never ships, I win the bet.

I mean this is really silly.

The anti-BluRay argument now boils down to this:

* "I hate Sony"
* I want VC9 because H.264 is not good enough (insert insignificant reason here)

The comments about which studios will choose which codec are clearly format independent now that H.264 -- at minimum -- has been included in BluRay. In other words, Sony Pictures could choose MPEG-2 for HD-DVD and BluRay or H.264 for both.

While Palladin is doubtless correct that this battle has motivated the BluRay group to adopt additional codecs and compete more aggressively, with that achieved all here should pull for one and only format to reach the market with studio backing. Anything else is chaos and dramatically slowed adoption / higher pricecs.

Persuade me otherwise, in the event I have overlooked something.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #470 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
The anti-BluRay argument now boils down to this:

* "I hate Sony"
* I want VC9 because H.264 is not good enough (insert insignificant reason here)
Wow! About time someone mentioned this!

Just who told you guys VC9 is better than H.264? First because H.264 is kinda new, so there aren't much tests yet, second is that WM9 loses against H.263 on most codecs comparisons out there (ask me and I'll post some). Just because some of you are amazed by the WM DVDs out there, or by the WMV-HD site demos doesn't mean VC9 is better than H.264.

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post #471 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 06:15 PM
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Very nice post rogo!

I want those who keep insisting that Warner is in the HD DVD camp to please take a look at the article which is linked in my signature for yourself. This misinformation fills every Blu-ray thread. I continually point out the latest quote directly from Warners home video president everytime someone gives this misinformation but yet someone else decides to post it again. Until such a time when someone can prove that Warner has since decided to support HD DVD instead of Blu-ray I feel the need to continue to point this out. Thank you in advance.
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post #472 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
With respect to BluRay, they got everyone in CE who matters to join up with them: Matsushita, Samsung, Hitachi, LG, Pioneer, Mitsubishi, Philips, Sharp, Thomson... That's the largest companies in Japan (save one), the two Korean giants, the two European giants to join forces with them.

Calling this a Sony format is disingenuous at best and dumb-as-a-rock stupid at worst.

This doesn't even mention getting the two largest PC companies -- by far -- on board.
This is signature material. Some persons continue to insist that HD DVD is ahead in the game but I've yet to see any legit sign that they're correct. The case has been made time and time again that Blu-ray has nearly all of the support. I believe it's only a matter of months before the majority of the studios openly support Blu-ray.
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post #473 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 07:22 PM
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Wow we have some dreaming going on here. To think that because HP and Dell have signed on (just on paper) to be part of BD-ROM means that they will ship tens of millions of drives is ludicrous. I doubt they ship that many DVD burners even today. We are looking at maybe 10 years from now before there is any hope of just Dell and HP shipping that many BD capable drives to consumers in a year (if the format lasts). The bulk of PC sales are the cheapo boxes, not the boutique machines with all the latest bells and whistles.

Regardless if they do or don't, it is a moot point because the BD forum has stated no intention of making the copy protected BD discs PC playable. And based on some of the comments from members of the BD group it looks doubtful, although I'm sure HP and Dell are pushing for this. Who knows if they will be able to sway the brain trust or not. But if they don't, all that means is that there will be lots of PCs out there with data capable BD drives used for backup, archival, or piracy purposes, but incapable of watching movies.

Only the DVD forum has sounded their intentions of making HD-DVD playable on PC, and with Microsoft on the steering committee is a pretty much a no brainer. Then after HD-DVD gets support in the OS (which I'm sure will be shipped in a SP for existing OSs when Longhorn supports it), all the PCs with HD-DVD drives start looking attractive to the studios.

As for comparisons between H.264 and VC-9, the only true comparison I have heard of (using "blind" judges) was the one performed by the DVD forum between MPEG-2, H.264, and WMV9 (VC-9). In the comparison each competitor was given the source material and given as much time as they needed to produce their best encode. Then each of these was presented to a panel of "golden eyes" who didn't know which clip was in which format. The winner for quality regardless of bitrate was VC-9. And if you have read the many comments by Amirm about H.264, you will know that the format was optimized for low bandwidth scenarios, not HD. Due to some design decisions H.264 ends up losing detail even at very high bitrates, detail which is not lost by VC-9.

Sony compared MPEG-2 against H.264 and in their opinion H.264 never exceeded the quality of MPEG-2 (it could match it at a lower bitrate maybe). Personally I want to see an improvement in quality if we go to the bother of switching codecs.
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post #474 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 07:45 PM
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I doubt they ship that many DVD burners even today.
Who said anything about burners, Ren? We're talking about players here, and DVD-ROM players were around LONG before burners were.

And let's not forget, when DVD-ROM players were released it wasn't yet a common practice to play movies on a PC. Now it is.

So now that we've lowered the bar to where it's supposed to be, it's entirely reasonable to expect large BD-ROM numbers from these guys.

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post #475 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RenStimpy
Sony compared MPEG-2 against H.264 and in their opinion H.264 never exceeded the quality of MPEG-2 (it could match it at a lower bitrate maybe). Personally I want to see an improvement in quality if we go to the bother of switching codecs.
That's an interesting comment as many who don't seem to care for Blu-ray have mentioned their distaste for the BDA possibly limiting the codec to MPEG-2. I'm not familiar at all with these kinds of technicalities but if there isn't a visable difference between two codecs, either should be sufficient and not worth complaining about IMO.
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post #476 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 07:56 PM
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I don't think HP and Dell are in this for ROM drives. The quotes I've read have been all about data archival purposes. Given that the BD group has not committed to PC playback, what would be the point of shipping read only drives?

Even now most software ships on CD, so the basic reason PCs have DVD-ROM drives is for studio content. Unless I see an announcement of support on PCs for copy protected BD content, the only obvious assumption is that HP and Dell want to ship burners, not readers.

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"HP believes Blu-ray Disc is the most consumer-friendly technology choice for the next generation of removable storage," John Romano, senior VP at HP, said in a statement.
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post #477 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 08:00 PM
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Sony compared MPEG-2 against H.264 and in their opinion H.264 never exceeded the quality of MPEG-2 (it could match it at a lower bitrate maybe).
This is older news. The old comparison is not likely a valid or thorough comparison. Sony is re-evaluating VC-9/H.264 ... Although I agree it is always nice to see an in-depth comparison and baing decisions on facts and well done DBT... (I prefer accurate objective measurements to subjective DBT, or at least in addition to...)

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Regardless if they do or don't, it is a moot point because the BD forum has stated no intention of making the copy protected BD discs PC playable. And based on some of the comments from members of the BD group it looks doubtful
These are the 'some' of the reasons that I do not firmly support Blu-Ray. While 50 Gig is better than 30 Gig (and Blu-Ray is more advanced technology), 30 Gig is still a hell of a lot of storage space and we should still be able to serve the "bottom line" with either HD-DVD or Blu Ray. While the bottom line is still better served by Blu-Ray, I continue to worry about various issues like you have mentioned. I'm just not so sure how valid this and other concerns are against Blu Ray. Would there really be fundamental differences between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray to this magnitude? How much control does the DVD-Forum vs Blu Ray forum have in the shaping of whether or not they could be played on PC's? I can't imagine having a PC based BD player and NOT being able to use Theatertek/Zoomplayer, etc.. to play them.

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Warner is not in the HD-DVD camp.
Why then is Warner and Sony in a fierce bidding match to buy MGM. Even the Digital Bits guys posted they think the winner would be the one who purchased MGM. (Although those guys aren't by any means always on target to say the least).

By the way, ONCE Blu Ray (HD-DVD) comes out with MPEG-2, H.264, and VC-9 support... and we finally get these players in our homes, Joe Kane, Stacey Spears, and tons of others who do extensive testing will easily be able to evaluate the advantages of each codec IN-DEPTH. I don't think there is any penalty (other than trivial cost increase) for providing support for three codecs. I look forward to in-depth reviews when the time comes. I just think its great to have the choices and to be able to have options that will yield the highest video quality possible...
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post #478 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 08:13 PM
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Originally posted by Health Nut
Why then is Warner and Sony in a fierce bidding match to buy MGM. Even the Digital Bits guys posted they think the winner would be the one who purchased MGM. (Although those guys aren't by any means always on target to say the least).
I don't put much faith in the Digital Bits as I've witnessed one to many errors by them throughout the last several years. As for why Warner and Sony are in a bidding match to buy MGM - it's quite simple, regardless of future format concerns, it's to be expected that both studios would love the opportunity to become the biggest and potentially most persuasive studio in the world and thus improve their standing in the movie business. It's my understanding that ever since MGM purchased PolyGram and a couple of other studios in '98 (IIRC) that they became the studio with the biggest catalog of movies available. So imagine how huge Warner or Columbia can become if they purchase MGM. Each of these studios is already big, they can become monsterous. Since it's not clear which way Warner will end up in the HD disc wars I'm really hoping Sony will make the MGM purchase to help ensure Blu-ray's success. That way Blu-ray can't lose IMO.
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post #479 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by Health Nut
While the bottom line is still better served by Blu-Ray, I continue to worry about various issues like you have mentioned. I'm just not so sure how valid this and other concerns are against Blu Ray. Would there really be fundamental differences between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray to this magnitude? How much control does the DVD-Forum vs Blu Ray forum have in the shaping of whether or not they could be played on PC's? I can't imagine having a PC based BD player and NOT being able to use Theatertek/Zoomplayer, etc.. to play them.
Of course I only know what is made public, but based on the magazine interviews with BD members (admittedly now a while ago) they were very much anti-PC playback of any kind. This became a hot button on the HTPC forum at the time. The DVD and HD forums have complete control over whether or not PCs support playback of protected content. If they don't give the license or keys to Microsoft et al, there is 0 chance of watching movies on your PC, laptop, or whatever.

A major reason Microsoft got involved with the DVD forum, and is now on the steering committee, was due to the risk of PCs losing out in the next format war. Now that they have a voice on HD-DVD, it is basically a given that PCs will support protected HD-DVD ROMs. We have no such guarantee from the BD group.
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post #480 of 18952 Old 08-08-2004, 08:37 PM
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Now that they have a voice on HD-DVD, it is basically a given that PCs will support protected HD-DVD ROMs. We have no such guarantee from the BD group.
Precisely why I think the BDA will change their minds and support PCs. It'd seem silly not to with HP and Dell backing them. ;)
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