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post #1621 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 05:12 AM
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Richard Paul says:

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Considering Blu-ray's 54 Mbps capablity it really doesn't seem to matter if DTS can't restrain the bit rate as well as MLP. In fact MLP does that by reducing the quality of the PCM stream which would be a negative if your trying for lossless.
The material would have to be so devoid of structure that it resembles noise. Every lossless compression codec will have to do this when the material becomes random and bandwidth is constrained. The fact that MLP can feed ahead material makes the likelihood of this occurring negligibly small.

By the way the solution in this case is to reduce the input sampling depth/rate with another encode. One channel that would be the obvious candidate is the LFE channel(s).

Also, what are the specs for the allocated bandwidth of the audio stream(s)? I have yet to see these values made publically available. Knowing MLP has several years of usage is (IMO) a powerful point in its favor.

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Also using MLP simply because it supports up to 64 channels seems an odd reason to discount DTS since I remember reading in Issue 69 of Widescreen Review that DTS is technically capable of at least 16 channel support. Even if MLP was supported it would still be limited to 7.1 channels and would therefore be no different than DTS++ Lossless.
Other than the fact that encoders are in the field and have been churning out titles for a number of years, the ASICs are available, the licensing is in place, etc etc etc. I consider these to be directly relevant to the discussion.


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Also its not that I like DTS++ Lossless better than MLP, I actually think WMA Losslees would be best, but I see no reason why DTS++ Lossless would be any different in quality than MLP. Also in terms of compression efficiency I would think WMA Lossless would probably be best considering its the newest made codec.
There's more to it than compression efficiency. The ability to embed downmix data within the stream means a single stream can serve both stereo and multi-channel environments. If the lone goal is compression efficiency then yes WMA Lossless could be the best option.

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post #1622 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Kotches



Also, what are the specs for the allocated bandwidth of the audio stream(s)? I have yet to see these values made publically available. Knowing MLP has several years of usage is (IMO) a powerful point in its favor.

This was posted a while back:

Blu-Ray Slides

On slide #45, they give the max bitrates for the audio codecs. LPCM is given a max bitrate of 18.432 Mbps.
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post #1623 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 09:07 AM
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kpup,

Thanks. It doesn't make much sense (IMO) to tie up all of the bandwidth with LPCM when a losslessly compressed codec can do better.

By the way, the definded maximum is only 96kHz, whereas HD-DVD has up to 192kHz. Whether or not this is sonically beneficial is arguable, but that's neither here nor there. By utilizing 8x 24/96K you have no space for other audio track options.

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post #1624 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dch50
The codec that Mr. Doherty said was being looked at was MPEG-4 AVC High Profile which is an improved version of H.264. Its using some of the same technology that vc-9 use to get better hd results at comparable bit rates. That may be the reason that they are only looking to include one of the codecs.
Does anyone know if AVC High Profile (8 bit, 4:2:0) will be the MPEG4 format used in HD-DVD and/or BD?

Thanks,
Frank

Frank Fulchiero
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post #1625 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 10:12 AM
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John,

Whatever LPCM bit-depth/sampling rate is utilized, by using MLP compression, the data-rate/bandwidth can be cut in half.

-dave

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #1626 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 10:36 AM
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Dave,

But the problem is that MLP compression is not part of Blu-Ray spec according to page 45 of the above-linked slide (and shown earlier in this thread), so, at least as of now, it can't be used in conjunction with LPCM.

David Forbes

Read excerpts, see cover art and more from my novels at www.davidforbes.net.

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post #1627 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 10:39 AM
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Sony pisses me off sometimes...

so caught up in their ego-driven agenda :mad:

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #1628 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 12:18 PM
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David,

David Forbes is correct. I am going off of the currently published specs for Blu-ray, which doesn't include MLP, only uncompressed LPCM.

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post #1629 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Kotches
The material would have to be so devoid of structure that it resembles noise.
So, you're saying MLP won't work on my new King Crimson CD? :)

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post #1630 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Kotches
David Forbes is correct. I am going off of the currently published specs for Blu-ray, which doesn't include MLP, only uncompressed LPCM.
Yes, but nothing's been decided, so there's still hope. I'm praying that Richard Doherty can bring common sense to the BD group and maybe explain to them how us radicals are demanding mo'better implementation.

John
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post #1631 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 01:11 PM
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JB says:

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So, you're saying MLP won't work on my new King Crimson CD?
That depends on how close to white or pink noise it is.

Quote:
Yes, but nothing's been decided, so there's still hope. I'm praying that Richard Doherty can bring common sense to the BD group and maybe explain to them how us radicals are demanding mo'better implementation.
Being the overly pedantic sort from time to time...

Some aspects have been decided, but the specifications are still open for further additions. The inclusion of DD+ and DTS has been decided. The inclusion of Linear PCM has been decided. What hasn't been decided is what (if any) lossless compression algorithm might be included.

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post #1632 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 01:17 PM
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King Crimson released a new CD?
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post #1633 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 01:47 PM
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I've always thought it was funny that classical music, even the most complex symphonies, can be compressed more than heavy metal music.

Why? Because, according the science of information theory, that means that heavy metal music has more information content than classical music does :)

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post #1634 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by wco81
King Crimson released a new CD?
Well, "The Power To Believe", it's pretty recent. I'm not liking it at all. Beat, Three of a Perfect Pair and Discipline are still the best ones by far. Thrak sucked pretty badly too.

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post #1635 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Kotches
Some aspects have been decided, but the specifications are still open for further additions.
Sorry, I meant nothing's been decided with respect to MLP.

John
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post #1636 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 02:35 PM
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Michael - I know some would argue that heavy metal music is not to be confused with white boys playing white noise for white boys . Hmm, wonder what Claude Shannon listened to ?

plug in to play
Acoustic Mafia - Hear No Evil
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post #1637 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Grant
I've always thought it was funny that classical music, even the most complex symphonies, can be compressed more than heavy metal music.

Why? Because, according the science of information theory, that means that heavy metal music has more information content than classical music does :)
Actually, you can't compress totally random data.

So, one could say that heavy metal music is much closer to random noise than classical music ;)

Robert
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post #1638 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 02:48 PM
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Why go spoiling the fun with facts, Robert? :)

Michael
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post #1639 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 02:51 PM
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It is simple:

The Blu Ray Alliance needs to adopt MLP (and DTS++ lossless also). If that''s the case, I don't see why we couldn't start a One Format campaign sooner than later.
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post #1640 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 02:57 PM
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Hey folks,

Time to reassert exactly what is public from the Blu-ray Disc Founders group regarding audio codec support:

1) Additional audio codecs are still under investigation.

2) DTS and DD are mandatory.

3) DTS++ (lossy and lossless) is called "optional" but this is really incorrect terminology. The great thing about this technology is that you can make one single bitstream which contains DTS and DTS++ (lossless) information. So if the unit contains a DTS++ decoder (and whatever new connector is necessary) you get lossless, if it doesn't contain the DTS++ decoder, you get the normal DTS track. Very cool. In other words, the content provider can generate one single lossless bitstream, and have it decoded correctly on all players.

4) The maximum sample size is 96k/24bit for 8 channel, and 192k/24bit for 6 channel using LPCM. The maximum bitrate is 27.648 Mbps

I'm sorry that we cannot announce MLP support at this time. Nevertheless, you will be getting lossless support with DTS++, so the end-user audio quality is identical. [edit: I removed any mention of HD-DVD audio formats., since I cannot reliably speak for them]

And finally, in case there's any doubt: Audio codecs are still under investigation.

Richard E. Doherty
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post #1641 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 03:10 PM
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Can I ask a dumb question?

To get MLP out of this hypothetical DVD player, I would need to pump the 5 outputs into the 5 inputs on my receiver (or 7 on either side) .... or, I'd need some hypothetical digital connection that doesn't exist ... or I could get them out via TOSlink / coax in a pre-decoded format?

And does my existing receiver (where "my" = the average surround receiver), have the ability to take these channels in via TOSlink and just send them out to the speakers?

In other words, can I get this sound digitally today? I know I can't with DVD Audio but I've never been clear on whether that's due to the copy protection stuff or the fact that TOSlink can't carry the signal in a way that my receiver can use it.

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #1642 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
3) DTS++ (lossy and lossless) is called "optional" but this is really incorrect terminology. The great thing about this technology is that you can make one single bitstream which contains DTS and DTS++ (lossless) information. So if the unit contains a DTS++ decoder (and whatever new connector is necessary) you get lossless, if it doesn't contain the DTS++ decoder, you get the normal DTS track. Very cool. In other words, the content provider can generate one single lossless bitstream, and have it decoded correctly on all players.
A) Admitedly, having lossless compression for movie soundtracks is of utmost importance, one way or another. Considering the bandwidth and storage of Blu Ray, there is no reason not to provide one high quality lossless track.

B) 'Technically' or for easiest implementation/convenience, it may sound cool that one track can contain all the info necessary to support lossless and the 'standard' lossy DTS, however, you still have all of the matrixed info present... It would be preferable to have a true discrete 7.1 lossless mix without all the matrixing garbage present. Let the standard DTS 5.1 or 6.1 ES lossy track contain all the matrixing nonsense. Let's have true discrete fronts, sides, rears, and rear center. As far as I am concerned, having one DTS mix cover all the bases is NOT an advantage.

Quote:
I'm sorry that we cannot announce MLP support at this time. Nevertheless, you will be getting lossless support with DTS++, so the end-user audio quality is identical.
I'm very thankful for lossless audio compression, however, we still have audio to address. Even if movie studios provide lossless DTS for movies, the music industry has been using MLP for Audio. I don't think you can simply substitute DTS++ for MLP as if DVD-Audio doesn't exist. DVD-Audio does exist and it needs to be supported. I'm sorry that it is called "DVD-Audio" :) but don't hold that against MLP :)

Quote:
Note that HD-DVD's support of MLP is merely 2-channel, so I don't think you're missing much for movie content.
I don't believe this is true. All the current DVD-Audio specs are supported. Perhaps 24/192 is limites to 2-channel with the HD-DVD announcement, but 5.1/6.0 24/96 MLP is suppported I believe. For HD-DVD sake, I'm not sure why they limited the channels to 6, but perhaps it could accomidate 8 channel MLP... not sure about that aspect of the HD-DVD Audio spec.
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post #1643 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 03:22 PM
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RDoherty says:

Quote:
I'm sorry that we cannot announce MLP support at this time. Nevertheless, you will be getting lossless support with DTS++, so the end-user audio quality is identical. Note that HD-DVD's support of MLP is merely 2-channel, so I don't think you're missing much for movie content.
You should correct this bit of misinformation.

The MLP 2.0 Channel requirement is for players. It's the lowest common denominator.
That 2.0 Channel content can be delivered via either included downmix coefficients within the multichannel mix or as a seperate datastream.

I'm not making this up, I got it from Bob Stuart, who is in a position to know exactly what's going on.

I quoted (with permission) his response verbatim earlier in this thread.

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post #1644 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 03:26 PM
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Some advocates of MLP reasoning for wanting it included in blu-ray is so that dvd-audio can continue to advance. My question is wasn't the whole point of the dvd forum including a lossless format like MLP in the dvd-audio spec because 5.1 uncompressed pcm wouldn't fit on a dvd disc? I understand that mlp is a bit for bit replicat of the studio master, but to a novice like me 100%uncompressed audio is an attention grabber and would be more marketable because its self explanatory. Rather than another compressed format, although lossless, that dosn't lend itself to immediate understanding without taking to time to read up on it.

If at the end blu-ray is chosen to be next format wouldn't it be more prudent for the BDA to establish a blu-ray audio fromat with 25GB of uncompressed multi-channel audio. If they did I believe that it would get a larger public response than dvd-audio/scad and truely be a format to challenge CD. Just my opinion.
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post #1645 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 03:26 PM
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rogo asks:

Quote:
Can I ask a dumb question?

To get MLP out of this hypothetical DVD player, I would need to pump the 5 outputs into the 5 inputs on my receiver (or 7 on either side) .... or, I'd need some hypothetical digital connection that doesn't exist ... or I could get them out via TOSlink / coax in a pre-decoded format?
HDMI is capable of passing the data, whether you want to call this hypothetical or not I leave up to you.

TOSLink and/or S/PDIF even at 4x rates cannot handle this on a single connection. These connections would require an 8x (for 8x 24/96K) or 16x (for 8x 24/192K) receiver to handle the rates.


Quote:
And does my existing receiver (where "my" = the average surround receiver), have the ability to take these channels in via TOSlink and just send them out to the speakers?
See above.

Quote:
In other words, can I get this sound digitally today? I know I can't with DVD Audio but I've never been clear on whether that's due to the copy protection stuff or the fact that TOSlink can't carry the signal in a way that my receiver can use it.
A little of both.

Keep in mind that when I talk about data rate limitations, I refer to the interface itself, not the cables that carry the signal.

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post #1646 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
The maximum sample size is 96k/24bit for 8 channel, and 192k/24bit for 6 channel using LPCM. The maximum bitrate is 27.648 Mbps
Wow, this is a 50% boost in bitrate from when those August slides were made... that's great.

Michael
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post #1647 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 03:31 PM
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Michael,

It seems that the answer is *it depends* if it is audio only, or audio + video combined. I believe they are capping it as mentioned previously for combined A + V, which I don't agree with. Should be some flexibility on how to divide the audio/video bandwidth...
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post #1648 of 18952 Old 09-29-2004, 03:34 PM
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No, there's no way that 27.658 is for audio & video. The context of Richard's post makes that clear. Furthermore, Richard has already stated previously that the total A&V bandwidth will be at least 36Mbps, most likely at least 54Mbps, and possibly even more like 72Mbps. The fact that they're feeling comfortable boosting the audio only bandwidth to 27.658 suggests that they must be leaning towards 54-72Mbps total.

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Quote:
100%uncompressed audio is an attention grabber and would be more marketable because its self explanatory. Rather than another compressed format, although lossless, that dosn't lend itself to immediate understanding without taking to time to read up on it.
Wouldn't take more than a sentence to properly market lossless as Bit for Bit identical to the master
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Quote:
No, there's no way that 27.658 is for audio & video. Richard has already stated that it will be at least 36Mbps, most likely at least 54Mbps, and possibly even more like 72Mbps. The fact that they're feeling comfortable boosting the audio only bandwidth to 27.658 suggests they're seriously considering 54-72Mbps total.
That's exactly what I said... the old poster shows 18...M/bit/sec. which is for audio/video... The new rate is for audio only, I think... However, I'm all for flexibility or more maximum bandwidth, especially with that 50 GB (and potentially higher) BD-ROM. I would agree that for an audio only format, why not open it up closer to the 54 Mbit/sec. Maybe they are thinking that the still photos with DVD-Audio are stupid and everything will come with 1080p video... whatever.
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