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post #1711 of 18952 Old 09-30-2004, 12:15 PM
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All well and good but I don't see the Japanese companies ditching the R&D they've already invested to help fund continued research of a technology which is 5-10 years away.

Looks like there's no lack of research into storage media. But as we know, it's not only about technology, it's about business models, marketing, etc.
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post #1712 of 18952 Old 09-30-2004, 12:48 PM
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I would bet that HD-DVD will win because it is cheapest and consumers don't need any more storage capacity than it offers. They just want movies and music at a low price with ability to record and HD-DVD has all that at a bargain price, plus backwards compatibility with their existing DVD libraries. Those who wish to design nuclear weapons at home may need more storage, however.

IB
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post #1713 of 18952 Old 09-30-2004, 01:05 PM
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They'll both be backwards compatible with DVDs.

Which will have cheaper players and selection/price for discs?

That is where it'll be decided. At first, it'll be early-adopters which give one of the formats a kick start.
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post #1714 of 18952 Old 09-30-2004, 01:58 PM
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I would bet that HD-DVD will win because it is cheapest and consumers don't need any more storage capacity than it offers. They just want movies and music at a low price with ability to record and HD-DVD has all that at a bargain price, plus backwards compatibility with their existing DVD libraries. Those who wish to design nuclear weapons at home may need more storage, however.
1) what is the price difference on recorded mediums to produce?
2) what is the price difference on recorded mediums to buy?
3) what is the price difference on recordable mediums?
4) Does HD-DVD even have a writer?

1) don't know, but I would bet it i not as much as you think
2) I would guess 0$ because the price of producing the DVD/CD.... is almost nothing compared to the price we pay at the store. My guess is that if there is a tiny price difference the BR manufacturers will eat it up to make their product more competitive. Now if the studios want to take a stand and make one format much more expensive then the other it will have nothing to do with production costs and could easily apply to one or the other.
3) read my answer to 4
4) Even though I have read that HD-DVD is hopping to be able to have a device that can write to HD-DVDS I have yet to see any, or hear of any your post is the only one that seems to think they will most definitely exist
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post #1715 of 18952 Old 09-30-2004, 02:19 PM
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AnthonyP,

From the minutes of the last (9/22/04) Steering Commitee meeting, the DVD Forum approved:

-- High Density Rewritable Disc Physical Specification Ver. 1.0

-- High Density Rewritable Disc Optional Specifications (1x speed) Rev. 1.0

-- High Density Recordable Disc Physical Specification Ver. 0.9

-- High Density Recordable Disc Optional Specifications (1x speed) Rev. 0.9

As alluded to by Richard, there seems to be trouble in paradise with respect to the dual layer solution. Also, prior to the 9/22/04 meeting, the monikers "HD-DVD Rewritable" and "HD-DVD Recordable" had been used...now, it's "High Density..." Go figure.

The Forum has committed to delivering the "complete" specs for all things HD-DVD by February 2005...after that, recorders/players should materialize in due time. Time will tell.

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post #1716 of 18952 Old 09-30-2004, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amillians
AnthonyP,

From the minutes of the last (9/22/04) Steering Commitee meeting, the DVD Forum approved:

-- High Density Rewritable Disc Physical Specification Ver. 1.0

-- High Density Rewritable Disc Optional Specifications (1x speed) Rev. 1.0

-- High Density Recordable Disc Physical Specification Ver. 0.9

-- High Density Recordable Disc Optional Specifications (1x speed) Rev. 0.9

As alluded to by Richard, there seems to be trouble in paradise with respect to the dual layer solution. Also, prior to the 9/22/04 meeting, the monikers "HD-DVD Rewritable" and "HD-DVD Recordable" had been used...now, it's "High Density..." Go figure.

The Forum has committed to delivering the "complete" specs for all things HD-DVD by February 2005...after that, recorders/players should materialize in due time. Time will tell.
What I found kind of intresting about the hd-dvd re and r formats specifications is that they are for single layer only. Could that have any thing to do with the fact that a 50GB dual-layer Blu-ray disc can be recorded using a 10mW laser while HD-DVD needs around 100mW to record dual-layer which I've read are a higher power laser diodes and require a much lower lattice defect rate hence cost much more.
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post #1717 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 02:29 AM
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I would bet that HD-DVD will win because it is cheapest and consumers don't need any more storage capacity than it offers. They just want movies and music at a low price with ability to record and HD-DVD has all that at a bargain price, plus backwards compatibility with their existing DVD libraries. Those who wish to design nuclear weapons at home may need more storage, however.
The argument that HD-DVD has enough room is like saying a 3 Ghz computer is the fastest computer that will ever be needed. Also their are currently multiple applications that would take advantage of Blu-ray's increased capacity. Some of the ones I can think of are HD recording, long movies, mini-series, TV series, games, and computer data. For recording HDTV would you prefer a format that could record 2 hours or a format that could record 6 hours?


Quote:
What I found kind of intresting about the hd-dvd re and r formats specifications is that they are for single layer only. Could that have any thing to do with the fact that a 50GB dual-layer Blu-ray disc can be recorded using a 10mW laser while HD-DVD needs around 100mW to record dual-layer which I've read are a higher power laser diodes and require a much lower lattice defect rate hence cost much more.
If dual layer HD-DVD-RW can't be done this will be a very short format war.
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post #1718 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 04:53 AM
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Not to mention that 25-30 GB is only good for a bare bones movie up to about 2.5 hours if a lossless/uncompressed audio track, a couple backwards compatable 5.1/6.1 audio tracks (+1 in a different language), and avg bitrate of 16 Mbit/sec VC-9 is to be provided. And that's if VC-9/MPEG-4 AVC is used... The 25 -30 GB would cover many/most movies in that case, but certainly not all, and were are talking bare bones: extras, depending on the amount/type of extras would likely have to go on a second disc... Ultimately I feel that the 50 GB disc will make many movies/software products more enjoyable and tend to maintain high quality in all situations. Even if it is just the convenience of being able to have everything on one disc, a 50 GB disc should be available for use. All things being equal, the 50 GB BD ROM as well as 50 GB BD RW are highly desireable to say the least! Considering that HD-DVD is capped at 30 GB...
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post #1719 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 07:01 AM
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Remember that a lot of people are speculating that a lot of content producers will try to use single-layer BDs for most releases to save production costs.

Weren't a lot of earlier DVDs just singlelayer? In fact many of them were singlelayer-doublesided so you'd have to flip them. They probably hadn't worked out the dual-layer process out.

So I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of initial releases be singlelayer.
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post #1720 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 07:26 AM
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Personally, I'd rather have one disc with the movie and no extras, no previews, no CRAP and then have the other disc with all that stuff so I can start my coaster collection. I miss the simplicity of LD and am especially annoyed by the DVD menu that makes you wait 30 seconds or so to even start the movie. Whatever happened to putting a disc in a tray and press play?

John
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post #1721 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 11:09 AM
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I know AOD and Blue Ray are so different.
Is it possible that a universal player could be built for both at a Wal-mart price?
If this kind of player became popular, I could not see a war like SACD vs DVD-A.
Because the logic format of both is so similar if not the same,
and the physical format of both can carry that logic format without compromise.
As to consumer, it is more like a DVD-5 vs DVD-9 situation in my opinion.
DVD-9 is good for long movies, superbit and extras, blah,blah¡K, but it didn't wipe out DVD-5.

I didn't see a lot of people against DVD-5.
I also didn't see a lot of people cry out for DVD-18.
I could understand why industry wants only one physical format.
But I just couldn't understand why us consumer don't want blue ray co-exist with AOD.
If the stuff is the same, more qualified cargo more competition.

Again, SACD and DVD-A are different cargo carrying different stuff.

Nobody wants a format war. Is this really true?
I would at least acknowledge the fact that AOD did push the agenda of blue ray.
Without AOD, I just don't think blue ray are so eager to lower the cost, adopt advance codec, blah blah blah¡K


Now I think the logic format war is almost over, at least to me.
I don't care whether blue ray could wipe out AOD.
I also don't care whether Blue ray Camp could make DVD Forum look like a joke.
No matter which cargo the industry choose, I know the decent 1080p video encoded in VC-1 or H.264 with some kind of lossless audio is the stuff on that cargo.
Let the industry worry about the rest, for their best interest of course. :)

HDPLEX
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post #1722 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 01:04 PM
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thanks amillians, so if I understand correctly the spec (rightable or whatever it is called) is only for single layer i.e. 15 GB
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post #1723 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 01:15 PM
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Also their are currently multiple applications that would take advantage of Blu-ray's increased capacity.
and don't forget that as a writable medium 15,25,30,50+ makes a BIG difference. just think of how many disks would you need to backup your hard drive if it is 15 or 50. How about home movies......?


Honestly I don't know if for video 30G is enough, but whatever the standard people will use it for PCs and there size does matter, and it does matter a lot. looking it at video is one thing, but the format will be PC/vido and PC BR has the advantage, the price difference needs to be extremely large to make a difference. I would also add that if the price per bit is the same BR will still have a big advantage
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post #1724 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 01:20 PM
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Is it possible that a universal player could be built for both
Don't know, BR and HD use different lasers, so from that point of view you would need to double everything (more or less) on the other hand I think I read that BR players will support DVD and for that they need to have the right laser for DVD, also that the laser that is used in HD can also be used with normal DVDs. So a HD/BR might be producible by taking out the DVD laser and replacing it with an HD laser.
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post #1725 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 01:25 PM
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Personally, I'd rather have one disc with the movie and no extras, no previews, no CRAP and then have the other disc with all that stuff so I can start my coaster collection. I miss the simplicity of LD and am especially annoyed by the DVD menu that makes you wait 30 seconds or so to even start the movie.
agree with most, I can do without the cr@p but the extras are nice, I wish they could not mess around with the menu (i.e. put disk in and chouse immidiately) but let's be honest, what ever the format they will add the cr@p and force you to sit through it. And if they are forced to put the extras on a second disk, they might also force you to sit through it a second time
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post #1726 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 01:47 PM
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Do we even know if Blu-Ray can physically read an SACD with its current spec'd optics/mechanism? I'm really curious to know if BD is even compatible. If it can read DVD-V, it can do DVD-A, but SACD is another matter altogether. Could it be that it's simply to much to make BD compatible with 4 different disc technologies?

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post #1727 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 02:14 PM
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> Do we even know if Blu-Ray can physically read an SACD with its current spec'd optics/mechanism?

Although I don't know the details, the way they are addressing CD and DVD, I am sure they can add another pickup if that trio unit can't do it.

Hong.

i have great faith in fools -- self confidence my friends call it. -- edgar allan poe
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post #1728 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 05:33 PM
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Blue Ray and HD-DVD are incompatable... you'd essentailly have to stuff virtually the equivalant of two players into one box, so it just wont happen. The format war has to end. IMO, Hollywood has to band together on this one and release content only on one format.

Since we are talking about problems/peeves with current DVD format that should not continue with DVD or any new format:

List of Peeves that should end:

1) Forced previews

2) Previews and 'opening sequences' that are 'fullscreen' when the DVD is Widescreen (distorted previews and opening sequences) -- absolutely rediculous and causes distortion.

3) Spoilers present in the menu: sequences of the movies are shown in the menu before one watches the movie: absolutely hate that! Stupid!
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post #1729 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Health Nut
Blue Ray and HD-DVD are incompatable... you'd essentailly have to stuff virtually the equivalant of two players into one box, so it just wont happen. The format war has to end. IMO, Hollywood has to band together on this one and release content only on one format.

Same thing could be applied to SACD and DVD-A?
If so, where is the cheap univseral SACD&DVD-A player coming from?
One box-one tray, less space, and cheap are the key factors even for the two in one situation.

Pop in the disc and go. Don't have to make any choice whatsoever.
Just like D5 and D9 today.

I can't help asking this:
A 007 movie (1080p) was encoded in VC-1 at 16Mbps with 6.1 MLP lossless and DTS++ lossy.
There were two versions on the market.
All being the same, except one was using AOD DL, the other blue ray SL.

Would you consider this as one format or two?

HDPLEX
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post #1730 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 07:49 PM
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There were two versions on the market
That's the part that is the problem... good luck with that one! Hollywood wil stick together on this one, I'm certain of it...
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post #1731 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lymzy
Same thing could be applied to SACD and DVD-A?
If so, where is the cheap univseral SACD&DVD-A player coming from?
One box-one tray, less space, and cheap are the key factors even for the two in one situation.

Pop in the disc and go. Don't have to make any choice whatsoever.
Just like D5 and D9 today.

I can't help asking this:
A 007 movie (1080p) was encoded in VC-1 at 16Mbps with 6.1 MLP lossless and DTS++ lossy.
There were two versions on the market.
All being the same, except one was using AOD DL, the other blue ray SL.

Would you consider this as one format or two?
I think sacd and dvd-a are perfect examples why we shouldn't have two competing formats. Neither has really taking of like they would have if only one high res audio format was on the market, and audiophiles to this day still argue over witch is the better format. Technically as mention before it would be difficult because they use different lens structures blu-ray .85na hd-dvd .65na. Even if all codecs are equal the two disc formats are physically different, with totally differnt manufacturing techniques. Having said that, studios are not going to be releasing movies for two differnt formats especially Disney, Twentieth Century Fox, Paramount, and Universal who were early divx supporters. And we all know how that ended.
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post #1732 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 09:29 PM
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SACD vs DVD-A is not why High Resolution audio formats have not "succeeded" -- MP3 is the main reason and poor/lack of marketing is the secondary reason.

The most efficient path is seldom a straight line.
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post #1733 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 10:08 PM
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SACD/DVD-A sales are unrelated to MP3 success. The fact is, MP3 or not, the market for marginally better playback technology doesn't have a market when 1) most people have crap for electronics and speakers, 2) most CDs don't even live up to the 16/44.1 format and 3) there's no selection. Add to that the poor surround mixes that are overdone and badly allocated tracks and the fact that you have to buy a new machine pretty much keeps these things on life support and you could kill MP3 today and the viability of these high-rez formats would remain the same. Even better marketing wouldn't get all that many people interested - they feel CD is basically perfect (and it's close enough), so how could the new formats sound better than perfect?

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post #1734 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr
SACD vs DVD-A is not why High Resolution audio formats have not "succeeded" -- MP3 is the main reason and poor/lack of marketing is the secondary reason.
Maybe so, but I believe if there was just one format that all the electronic companies and all the music companies got behind and pushed that one formats as the predecessor to cd it would have been more successful.
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post #1735 of 18952 Old 10-01-2004, 10:45 PM
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I often describe the SACD/DVD-A battle as to welterweights leaning on each other after the 2nd round. Or a resistable force meeting a movable object.

John
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post #1736 of 18952 Old 10-02-2004, 02:52 AM
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Does anyone think that dual layer HD-DVD-RW/R will be added to the specs before they are finalized? I know that HD-DVD was meant to be cheaper than Blu-ray but do you think the DVD-Forum will forsake dual layer writing simply to keep the format cheaper? Also if HD-DVD doesn't include dual layer writing would anyone still support it?
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post #1737 of 18952 Old 10-02-2004, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Also if HD-DVD doesn't include dual layer writing would anyone still support it?
Call me crazy, but I could give a rat's a$$ about the recording capabilites of either format.

If I want to record HDTV, I'll take the convenience/intelligence of a DVR anyday over a disc-based solution (or over a tape-based solution, natch).

If I want to archive/backup/transport massive amounts of PC data, I'll use UDO (I'd also say PDD, but something about that format rubs me the wrong way...I can't quite put my finger on it) or a portable external HDD (which I do now).

<Carl from ATHF> Now gimme some frickin HD movies on a disc!!! </Carl from ATHF>

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post #1738 of 18952 Old 10-02-2004, 07:15 AM
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SACD vs DVD-Audio failure is due to everything mentioned:

1) The format war itself, further limiting available titles to one format or the other, which stalled any chance of gaining momentum.

2) Limited number of titles for either format

3) Lack of digital outputs with forced analog outputs in 95% of players. Although HDMI should help in this regard.

4) Cheaply available MP3 w/ very cool tagging and convenience features. Tagging ability and ability to make samplers is huge.

5) Lack of ability to purchase a DVD-Audio or SACD disc and then be able to make a lossless, uncompressed, or lossy copy for use with the owner's PC or portable device (particularly the ability to make samplers in this regard). Making samplers with playlists, random playback with automixing is very important... See J Rivers Media Center as a great example. It is great to be able to rate tracks, sort by genre, and then make playlists..!!!

Companies will shoot themselves in the foot if they make products so unfriendly due to overbearing copyprotection. This is supposed to be fun and entertainment! If it is no longer entertaining or fun to use, it won't be purchased. Go after the pirates or people who buy pirated copies, but don't make a product that is no longer fun to use, because it just isn't entertainment anymore, and that is what you are selling. Look at DVD-Audio and SACD, such a shame...
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post #1739 of 18952 Old 10-02-2004, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Does anyone think that dual layer HD-DVD-RW/R will be added to the specs before they are finalized? I know that HD-DVD was meant to be cheaper than Blu-ray but do you think the DVD-Forum will forsake dual layer writing simply to keep the format cheaper? Also if HD-DVD doesn't include dual layer writing would anyone still support it?
Well recording capacity certainly played a big role in VHS's victory over Beta.

However, DVRs are the way to go for timeshifting. The only thing is, most people don't have DVRs yet. So there are a lot of VCRs out there still to be replaced.

If portability is important at all, then people will be attracted to HD-DVD and Blue Ray for their recording capabilities.

My guess is there will be plenty of DVRs integrated with a HD-DVD or Blue Ray writer. But these will tend to be priced in the high end.

So for the mass market, it'll have to be either DVRs or a disc-based recorder. Which of these can be produced cheaper? Something with a big hard disk (probably at least 160 GB to be useful at all with HDTV) or something that lets you rewrite many times on cheap media? That is where the longer recording capacity would come to play. If the dollar per hour of recording can be kept low by greater capacity, that has to provide an edge.
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post #1740 of 18952 Old 10-02-2004, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Let's give the Chinese credit for not even trying to play coy as to how they'll handle the HD-DVD/BD skirmish :)


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