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post #1891 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Kotches
Dish's firewire options are nill, and my local cable provider doesn't have a good offering of HD.
Get that and make a review!

Robert
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post #1892 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 11:24 AM
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Robert,

Cool product, but I use an 811 with DVI output, otherwise it would be well worth pursuing. Arrgggh. If it's not one thing, it's another, eh?

Also, it would be nice if it were firewire instead of USB2.0, I could then archive straight to D-VHS.

Cheers,

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post #1893 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 11:44 AM
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Let me confirm that we fully intend to preserve the existing DVD model: That you can always put the disc in the slot and watch the movie, even if you never hook your player to the net.
Whew!

Michael
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post #1894 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 12:40 PM
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Read the "more information" page John. It has an optional firewire card specifically FOR archiving to D-VHS.

BB
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post #1895 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 12:44 PM
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Rogo said:
".... the question as to whether every movie is going to require a call home. I'd guess there just isn't any chance of that for HD-DVD or BluRay."

Richard confirmed this is the case for BluRay, I don't even need to hear it's the case for HD-DVD -- I'm sure it is.

Now, can we return to "which side should someone pick?" for a second.

There is simply not any reason why you or I should care what has higher manufacturing startup costs. To support HD-DVD for that reason is really quite nonsensical.

None of us have a stake in any existing replicator and it's crystal clear that:

* There will be replicators for BluRay, even if the existing replicators are not them.

* The cost to replicate BluRay discs will be at worst marginally higher than the cost to replicate HD-DVD discs. The end-user price will be different by an infinitesimal amount as replication costs are a miniscule fraction of what a DVD "costs".

So when I read people in the industry say, "I like HD-DVD because existing replicators can start producing discs on the same line in an hour" I say, "So what?"

Seriously, that's just not an argument for us.

We -- the people -- need to care about things that matter to us:

* Video quality: bitrates, codecs, etc.
* Audio quality: bitrates, formats /codecs, etc.
* Capacity: can the discs hold what we want today and tomorrow?
* Player cost: is one player going to be dramatically more or less expensive than the above?
* Player availability: will there be a lot of different choices in players with the features and prices to satisfy everyone?
* Media cost: for recordables, asking the same question as above

And if heaven forbid there's a format war...

* Content: who has more of the good stuff?

Here are things that don't matter:

* the aforementioned replication cost
* the complexity of the pickup head
* the R&D cost of developing a new spin-coating method (presuming the end discs are durable)
* whether Toshiba gets to collect patent royalties because of its stake in the DVD patents
* whether Sony gets to collect patent royalties because of its stake in BluRay patents

Look, this isn't my typical pro-BluRay post. Ask the above questions yourselves. But please, stop telling me that I should care that a tectonic technological shift away from DVD to a media for the next media is going to have some casualties in the disc replication business.

I must've missed the part where we passed on the CD because of how badly it hurt the vinyl-record guys. And with the future of nearly all music purchasing headed for the 'net, should we give up all that will bring us because the CD replicators will be put out of business?

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1896 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 02:17 PM
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Brandon,

Still no 811 support, so it's SOL for me :-(

Cheers,

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post #1897 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Kotches
[list][*]Failure to support MLP for lossless audio.

This has been semi-addressed with the inclusion of DTS lossless as an alternative codec. I'd still like to see MLP included with the same requirements as HD-DVD. This would allow for the use of a single lossless audio format between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
But DTS Lossless has been chosen for HD-DVD as well. It is common between both formats.

Andre
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post #1898 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 04:38 PM
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I'm with you 100% on this. If all of the geniuses coming up with this crap think the world is going to play "monkey jump thru the hoop" and pay big bucks to do it, they are out of their f'ing minds. Looks like I'll be watching SD-DVDs forever now.
1) I agree.

2) We don't have to buy this stuff if we don't like it... Hell, they are the one's that need us, we don't need them. That is what is laughable about this whole thing!!!!

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Let me confirm that we fully intend to preserve the existing DVD model
Well, that makes sense. However, What about people who want to use media servers and put one copy on their media server?

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Considering that Widescreen Review has been either mocking or openly hateful of Blu-ray for over the last 6 months
I am a subscriber as well, but I never got that impression from Gary or any other writer... I think if anything, Gary, like many of us, wants to see the winning format have the best features/capabilities... I haven't seen Gary favor one vs the other per se... The last issue I have is October (Van Helsing on the cover). Where are you reading this?
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post #1899 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 04:44 PM
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> But DTS Lossless has been chosen for HD-DVD as well. It is common between both formats.

However, "mandatory" and "optional" make a difference as with DTS with the early stages of DVD (or even DVD-Audio/MLP) as to the actual players and contents using it.

Hong.

i have great faith in fools -- self confidence my friends call it. -- edgar allan poe
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post #1900 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 04:53 PM
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Considering that HD-DVD/BluRay will take much longer reaching the mainstream than DVD did, can the studios really afford to infuriate the early adopters
In general, I agree with the importance of early adopters, particularly with a format war. I have said this all along.

Also, any word on Blu Ray and "Advanced Audio Codec" What's the deal about MLP?
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post #1901 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 07:58 PM
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I am a subscriber as well, but I never got that impression from Gary or any other writer... I think if anything, Gary, like many of us, wants to see the winning format have the best features/capabilities... I haven't seen Gary favor one vs the other per se... The last issue I have is October (Van Helsing on the cover). Where are you reading this?
I was a bit harsh in my wording but I do believe that Widescreen Review has been promoting HD-DVD over Blu-ray. The November issue is the one that I have been mentioning, which includes a HD-DVD showcase article and a Insider Industry View article by Paul Sweeting. Those two articles seemed to be promoting HD-DVD and Paul Sweeting's article even went as far as to suggest that dual layer BD-ROM won't be used. In the long run dual layer BD-ROM will become common the same way that dual layer DVD did and I believe that Paul Sweeting was unfair to make that suggestion.
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post #1902 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 08:21 PM
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I didn't get the November issue yet... maybe I'll get it soon.

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Sweeting's article even went as far as to suggest that dual layer BD-ROM won't be used.
If that were true, I think we'd all vote for HD-DVD and their 30GB dual layer, but I don't believe this to be true. But if that WERE true, what would Blu Ray have to offer over HD-DVD? The only thing that Blu Ray has to offer at this point is that 50 GB dual layer... if it wasn't for that....

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In the long run dual layer BD-ROM will become common the same way that dual layer DVD did and I believe that Paul Sweeting was unfair to make that suggestion
Well, I think Blu Ray needs to address this issue immediately. After all, what good is Blu Ray without the 50 GB BDROM...? I think we need to know what movies are planned to be like on Blu Ray, and that means 2 hour, 3 hour, and 4 hour movies... We want lossless audio and somewhere in the ball park of 16 Mbit/sec VC-9 (with VBR)
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post #1903 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 10:26 PM
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Paul Sweeting suggested that dual layer BD-ROM wouldn't be used since the studios don't think it is necessary. He referred to the potential price of dual layer BD-ROM as the reason why. He never quoted any studio who said that and never offered any proof besides a quote from a unnamed Blu-ray official who said that "studios don't want to do dual layer". Paul Sweeting then preceded to compare dual layer HD-DVD to single layer BD-ROM. This is why I said in my last post "In the long run dual layer BD-ROM will become common the same way that dual layer DVD did". Even though some studios may go the cheap route the decision will be up to the individual studio and with time dual layer 50 GB BD-ROMs will become cheap. HD-DVD on the other hand will always have a maximum of 30 GB regardless of time.
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post #1904 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 10:29 PM
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To get this long, long thread in perspective (and I haven't read all 96 pages so I hope what I'm about to write has not already been written), I'd like to point out that Physicists are already working on the 'next?' generation of optical storage which (hopefully) will have a capacity of 10x that of BluRay. It's called MODS (multiplexed optical disc storage). The principle is, the pits are asymmetric, each containing a step at one of 332 angles.

In the meantime, the research has to be paid for, so we'll all have to buy the intermediate format (BluRay or HD-DVD) , to fund this ongoing research.

Now that's fair, isn't it? :)
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post #1905 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Those two articles seemed to be promoting HD-DVD and Paul Sweeting's article even went as far as to suggest that dual layer BD-ROM won't be used.
It was suggested (just got my copy) that a dual layer disc is not needed with advanced codecs (VC-1/264), and that 25GB was more than enough for a movie and some extras. It almost implied (but this is the writers opinion) that with a 25GB disc, skipping MPEG-2 and going straight to VC-1/264, 25GB was more than ample room for the studios without the added cost of a dual layer BD or HD-DVD disc.

Time will tell.

-> No longer looking for Hi-Vision LDs <-

(I buried that format finally)


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post #1906 of 18952 Old 10-15-2004, 11:12 PM
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MODS has been mentioned 10 times in this thread. In fact, similar technology such as holographic, and similar technologies have been mentioned over and over for the past 3 years or so... It is nice to talk about, but nothing to do with here and now apparently.

Sounds like the studios will cut corners if needed to make things fit on a 25GB disc if need be... If that is the case, don't put any damn extras on the discs to get in the way of maintaining in the ball park of 16 Mbit/sec VC-1 and lossless audio (as well as a backward compatable DD track and another DD Foreign language track)... once you start getting beyond 2.5 hours, its going to get tight. All I ask is to not load the disc up with extras and dumbass fluff at the expense of A/V quality... In that case, use a second disc and make the extras hi-def for all I care, and put all the other fluffy crap, cheesy extras, and interactive Internet bullcrap on that second disc as well... hell, load up that second disc for all I care, just make the primary 25 GB disc about pure A/V quality....

Next thing you know they'll be giving us the old 'full bitrate' DTS (marketing gimmick) and cutting VC-9 rates down to 9 mbit/sec... don't get me wrong, VBR does help tremendously, but let's not get back to "ACCEPTABLE VIDEO QUALITY" What a load of crap. I'm not about wasting storage and bandwidth, but I'd rather see VC-1 bitrates closer to 16 Mbit/sec than 9-12 mbit/sec.
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post #1907 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 12:15 AM
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What! MODS has been mentioned 10x in this thread? Forgive me for not reading all 96 pages.

The next DVD format should be able to accommodate 1920x1080P if it's expected that 1920x1080P will become a viable and popular format within the product life of that next DVD format, BluRay or whatever.

The HDTV scene seems to be moving rather slowly in my opinion. It'll be a long while before reasonably sized (ie. large) 1920x1080i displays become affordable, never mind 1920x1080P.
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post #1908 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 07:37 AM
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All Blu Ray movies are being demoed in 1080p. The Blu Ray disc should store the movie in 1080p24, then the player can output the native signal or a 'transcaled' signal which includes 720p, 1080i, etc... Backward compatability with DVD also implies that 480i for standard DVD also will be required.

Everything is going 1080p... and some of the new LCD/LCOS technology is apparently very inexpensive.
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post #1909 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 08:40 AM
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Actually, it seems like the HD-DVD group is suggesting that 6-12 mbps is good enough for video.

A few pages back dch50 posted this link:

CEATEC Japan 2004

....which contained the following slides:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...fceat10_07.jpg

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...fceat10_08.jpg
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post #1910 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 09:15 AM
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Based on some of the posts about WM9/VC9/VC1 encoding, it appears that those people who actually work with the codec say 12Mb/s - 14Mb/s is where it will max out. Beyond this, they literally see no improvement.

Amir from Microsoft has confirmed this about the codec.

The most efficient path is seldom a straight line.
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post #1911 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 09:44 AM
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I was basing 16 mbit/sec based on several articles I read comparing quality vs bitrate. It depends on the source material to some degree and something to do with 'grain'. There was also a study (posted here previously) in which subjective comparisons showed 16 Mbit/sec had the best score. Comparsons included 4 categories. 16 Mbit/sec scored higher than 20 Mbit/sec (because it was not statistically significant obviously).

My question is this: are we going to push the lower end of acceptable or the higher end of acceptable?

VBR obviously is a big help, but still... the danger/potential exists, particularly for longer movies and extras to cause less than optimal A/V rates on 25 GB discs...

Put the extras/fluff on a second disc if need be... And what about 3-4 hour movies? A 50 GB disc would be nice, and probably necessary for best enjoyment/convenience (unless you want to put 3-4 hour movies across two discs as is the case with Lord of the Rings, etc...)

Quote:
Actually, it seems like the HD-DVD group is suggesting that 6-12 mbps is good enough for video.
Yes, they are really trying to push acceptability of that 15 GB single layer... 'good enough' wow... that is enthusiasm if I ever heard it...
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post #1912 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by Health Nut
that is enthusiasm if I ever heard it...
Was that directed at me or the HD-DVD group?
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post #1913 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 10:49 AM
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The HD-DVD group, I'd say.

That's the attitude that gets us edge enhancement on standard DVD. "Ehh... It looks good enough on this here 20'' TV".
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post #1914 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 10:50 AM
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The HD-DVD group... it was their quote. I know you, like everbody else wants the best possible video quality. There is no reason to have *superbit* versions anymore. It is absurd to think that someone would release a superbit version of an HD-DVD/Blu Ray. The video qulaity should be such that we don't even need to consider an upgrade based on video quality. The video bitrate should be such that there should be NO difference when compared to 20 Mbit/sec VC-1 per se.... Sure, use VBR, take the bitrate down to 14-16 Mbit sec, but if anything, leave the bitrate slightly high rather than slighly low. We are done with the era of trying to squeeze and see how low we can 'get away with'.

For 25 GB discs, worst case all they have to do is keep the current DVD model and use a second disc for all the fluff/extras. For longer movies and convenience purposes of having everything on one disc, the 50 GB BDROM makes the most sense... how much more would it really cost vs (2) 25 GB discs? We need these issues addressed. What's the big deal on producing 50 GB BDROM discs?
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post #1915 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 11:55 AM
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"In fact, similar technology such as holographic, and similar technologies have been mentioned over and over for the past 3 years or so..."

... and this stuff has been discussed in the industry since I've been in / around it -- about 2 decades!

Nothing has ever come of it or even really come close despite a lot of investment.

Forgive me for being skeptical.

Let's just say 8-layer BluRay sounds more likely to actually be developed than all these clever schemes.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #1916 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 04:27 PM
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Both the BDA and the DVD Forum have been showing off how low their new video codecs can go. These demonstrations aren't important as long as the format can support a high bit rate. Blu-ray can support up to 40 Mbps in both MPEG-4 AVC and VC-1 while HD-DVD has not yet released their specifications. Though 16 Mbps will be sufficient for the vast majority of material it is best to have the highest peak video rate possible. Video with snow, fireworks, and any other hard to encode material will benefit from a high video rate even with the newest video codecs. As long as the potential of the format is high enough then regardless of what some studios will do their will be others who will use that potential well.


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What's the big deal on producing 50 GB BDROM discs?
Supposedly cost though until they start commercially making 50 GB BD-ROMs the estimates vary from 50% to 100% more than the cost of dual layer DVD. Also a 50 GB dual layer BD-ROM would be cheaper than two 25 GB discs. Even the worst case cost difference between single layer and dual layer BD-ROM would be a difference of under 50 cents. Personally I believe the cost difference is being exaggerated by the DVD Forum to try to weaken one of Blu-ray's greatest strengths.
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post #1917 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rogo
"In fact, similar technology such as holographic, and similar technologies have been mentioned over and over for the past 3 years or so..."

... and this stuff has been discussed in the industry since I've been in / around it -- about 2 decades!

Nothing has ever come of it or even really come close despite a lot of investment.

Stuff is always around, sometimes for decades before it becomes a practical reality. Einstein's theory of relativity didn't materialise out of the blue. The concepts had been around for decades. Einstein 'put it together' as it were. Same with Darwin's theories of evolution. The time was ripe. The ideas were not new.

There seems to be a serious attempt under way to make MODS a reality.
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post #1918 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 10:04 PM
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If Blu-Ray is getting a 27+ Megabits/sec data rate just for the audio stream, then why can't they add 8 channel LPCM 24/192 support or even greater channel capabilities than 8 channel 24/96 audio?

My opinion is if they have the room, then don't even bother losslessly compressing the primary/premium audio track. Lossless compression is only really needed if there is a huge space limitation that could make the video suffer, and there shouldn't be if they pool the video and audo streams correctly for maximum audio and video quality for the main feature, and not over pack the discs. Ahem, MGM/Sony, Lions Gate, Universal, and Disney!!!!!

If HDMI v. 2 limitations are the hold up, then get crackin' on HDMI v.3 and make it much more flexible for both audio and video. Heck, can't HDMI throughput at least 5 Gigabits/sec as is??

Peace out!

Dan

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post #1919 of 18952 Old 10-16-2004, 10:45 PM
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There seems to be a serious attempt under way to make MODS a reality.
Barryz, there have also been serious attempts to make fusion power a reality for over 50 years. There is a joke that fusion power is always 10 years away. Eventually fusion power will become a reality and so will holographic storage but both may still be many years away. If you want to read about an interesting technology search the forum for FMD. Though they are now using the name DMD it is basically a dead format. FMD had much potential but was not commercially viable and there is a good chance that MODS won't be either. For instance if you read up on MODS in this New Scientist article it apparently can't be used for consumer recording even if it is someday released.


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If Blu-Ray is getting a 27+ Megabits/sec data rate just for the audio stream, then why can't they add 8 channel LPCM 24/192 support or even greater channel capabilities than 8 channel 24/96 audio?
Blu-ray has a total of 54 Mbps for both audio and video. The reason the BDA isn't adding more than 8 channels of audio is that it would add expense to the format for something that the vast majority of customers aren't asking for. Personally I'm quite happy with 8 channel audio and besides wanting WMA Pro/Lossless I am also happy with their audio/video codecs. Also HDMI is capable of up to 8 channels of PCM audio at 24-bit/192-kHz.
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post #1920 of 18952 Old 10-17-2004, 08:30 AM
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Originally posted by Richard Paul
FMD had much potential but was not commercially viable and there is a good chance that MODS won't be either. For instance if you read up on MODS in this New Scientist article it apparently can't be used for consumer recording even if it is someday released.
Richard,
The New Scientist report differs somewhat from the following report in The Australian.

"Scientists work on a megadisc - Barbara Gengler OCTOBER 05, 2004.

PHYSICISTS in Britain, Switzerland and Greece are working on a three-year project to develop an optical disc that can store all 65 episodes of The Sopranos or 350 episodes of The Simpsons. Dubbed MODS (Multiplexed Optical Data Storage), the discs are expected to cost about the same to manufacture as an ordinary DVD. The 1TB disc will be double-sided and dual-layer, but even a single-sided, single-layer disk would hold 238 episodes of the Friends series. "According to our experimental results, we can optimistically estimate that we will be able to store about 1TB per disc using our new method," research leader Peter Torok says. Dr Torok says this is about 250GB a layer - 10 times the capacity of a BluRay disc, which holds about 100GB and which are expected to be released in Australia at the end of next year.

Dr Torak told the recent Asia-Pacific Data Storage Conference 2004 in Taiwan that unlike existing optical discs, MODS discs had asymmetric pits, each containing a step sunk at one of 332 angles, which encode information. He says the team came up with the idea for this disc some years ago but did not have the means to prove whether it worked. "To do that, we developed a precise method for calculating the properties of reflected light," he says. "We are using a mixture of numerical and analytical techniques that allow us to treat the scattering of light from the disc surface rigorously rather than just having to approximate it"
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