Even Later HiDef DVD News - Page 139 - AVS Forum
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post #4141 of 7981 Old 02-07-2006, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Hey B2b, did you see one of my recent posts where I said I get paid to post here by Dave Bott? I just realized you must have cut the same sweet deal. Except that you don't even bother to work for it. You quote an entire post and put a random comment after it and bang, you make your money! I knew you BD guys are smarter than us HD DVD folks. :D

Amir
Glad to see that you are catching on... :D

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A Toshiba spokesman, said that "from an engineer's point of view, the Blu-ray is a masterpiece.."
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post #4142 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
(snip)
BTW, how come no one is excited about him saying it will take a year for BD to catch up to HD DVD in titles? A whole year during which PS3 is supposing shipping. And even then, he says they will have “almost identical titles.†So true parity may not be achieved even then. This is even a worse situation than I had predicted wrt to their support of BD.

Amir
First of all, the stuff that Rio posted went from Adam Yokoi, to journalist, to article, to translation and interpretation by Rio. Your "ping" went from Adam Yokoi, to you, to your own built-in HD-DVD/BD filter. Who should we most likely believe? :rolleyes:

According to the translation provided by Rio and how I read it, Adam said that it takes a year for WB titles in BD to catch up with HD-DVD titles. You take it as if Adam said BD title from all of the studios will take up a whole year to catch up with BD.

Is that not fear, doubt and uncertainty from your part?

Already at launch (see Grubert's thread about HD titles at launch), BD titles outnumber HD-DVD titles (which from my last reading of that thread, you did not find the time to respond to Grubert's calling you on 200 HD-DVD titles by end of 2006, or for that matter launch titles).

Even if WB's BD titles takes one year to catch up with their HD-DVD titles, there are still BD exclusive studios (Fox, Lionsgate, Sony, Disney) cranking out titles during those long 12 months. So if WB takes a year to catch up, other studios are taking up the slack. And if they can do BD50 by middle of 2006, I'm quite certain the replication process would be refined by end of the year.

I doubt that your reading of Rio's translation was correct; you can always personally "ping" Adam again for his clarification on that point. Might help also if you ask Rio for the original Japanese article and cut and paste that in your "ping".

And since nobody picked up on my earlier post about possible October release date for PS3, let me haul that still alive horse back up for some more beatings. (call PETA!!! :D:D:D)

Samsung BD player release date is late April. By end of July, Pioneer is predicted to release their expensivo Elite. By that time, the BD roll-out would have already commenced. I conservatively predict the first few BD titles to be released in June. If an October release schedule is true for PS3, there would be already five months since BD launches (June to Oct, discounting the month of May).

I predict people would buy PS3 versus a stand-alone BD player like the Samsung 10:1. So when (and not if) PS3 flies off the shelves, the game titles and BD titles will fly with them. Hopefully by then, disc replicators can churn BDs as fast as they can - for both games and for movies. :D:D:D

Call me on if I'm bashing HD-DVD in this or any of my last 10 posts - the one post to nataraj notwithstanding. :D:D:D I'm defending BD.


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post #4143 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaconfrost
When the first MPEG-2 1080p Blu-ray movies from Sony arrives, they will almost certainly look spectacular. We've seen MPEG-2 HighDef demoes for quite some time now (think Blu-ray demoes, D-VHS etc.) and they generally look stellar so it can be done and done very well. Live with it. :)

This misses the point. The question is not whether they look good in BD. The question is whether the HD DVD version of the same movie using VC-1 looks better.
If Blu-ray (or HD-DVD for that matter) looks good in the customers eyes, that's all that matters. I will bet you any time that the vast majority of customers will not be able to notice any difference between HD-DVD and Blu-ray regarding picture/sound.

If you believe that people will show an interest in codecs and storagecapacity with ROM discs, then look at the DVD market. How many of the people who buy DVDs are interested in what kind of disc is used or what videocodec is used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
What reason is there for existence of BD if it produces lower quality pictures? We pay more to get less?
Only Sony will release MPEG-2 discs for what we know at this time - the other BD filmstudios are using newer codecs. I think you have been reminded of this enough times by now.... BTW - it's your (and others who prefer HD-DVD) assumption/hope that Blu-ray will produce lower quality pictures - nothing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaconfrost
Add to that a lot of the people who encode for a living are very familiar and experienced with MPEG-2 and know how to tweak and encode to achieve maximum performance.
You make it sound like the operator is actually doing the compression. This is not the case. The tools we provide are very similar to MPEG-2 anyway. The operator auto encodes everything and then boosts the bit budget to improve the picture quality where there are artifacts. In neither case does the operator understand the codec itself. The task is the same regardless of codec choice.
I've read several posts at this forum written by the people in the business or/and people in the know, that a qualified person overseeing/encoding/compressing or whatever the transfer can be vital for the endresult qualitywise. Sofar I haven't seen these statements questioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaconfrost
Some people here might seriously benefit from a sitdown with Dr. Phil...
I have tried to do this half a dozen time. The problem is, every time I get there, Richard is already in front of me as is b2b, RIO, etc. so I give up and have to come again .

Amir
Dr. Phil would probably just say: "When you fight about everything, you fight about nothing" or "How's that working for you?".... Or he would say "Get a life, guys..." :D
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post #4144 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 01:42 AM
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I guess it's too much to ask that every post present some actual information, or at least present question(s) that might help us learn something new. The incessant bickering does nothing but clutter this thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
So the tools everyone talks of for encoding come only from Tosh (for HD DVD) and Sony (BD)? Or are there other BD tools being developed? Still trying to figure out how Warner will use VC-1 titles in BD, as well as what Paramount and Fox will do. Are they all dependent on the Sony tools?

Also, has there been any annoucement from Paramount or Universal wrt codec on HD DVD? Will they be using VC-1 as well, or is this not public yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Yes, as is typical in new formats, the key promoter builds the initial set of tools. As you can imagine, there is not much business here selling tools to a handful of studios. So the investement must be made by format makers.

For Toshiba, they are providing the MUX and AVC encoder. We are providing the VC-1 encoder (the MUX mixes the audio, video, and other tracks together).

For BD, both MEI and Sony were producing them but MEI tool seems to no longer be in the running or so we hear.

As I have mentioned before, there really is no option to use VC-1 in BD without Sony and us working together on it. It is not really complicated but it is work (i.e. MUX). And right now, there is nothing happening.
I just thought I would reiterate that Sonic and MEI announced a partnership at CES to deliver BD tools with a high-performance AVC encoding solution in beta this spring, with final release expected this summer.

Thus, while BD may be limited to MPEG-2 (to some extent) at a May/June launch, high-performance implementations of AVC will be available and supported by BD tools this fall, at the very latest. If Blu-ray is delayed from May/June to say, August/September, it's quite possible we could see launch titles using high-performance AVC encoders.
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post #4145 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 02:08 AM
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Amir,

Sonic's Scenarist for HD-DVD currently supports VC-1, but their BD tools evidently do not. Have you had any communication with Sonic on supporting VC-1 in their forthcoming release, so studios have an alternative to the bundled MEI encoder on BD?
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post #4146 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirm
This misses the point. The question is not whether they look good in BD. The question is whether the HD DVD version of the same movie using VC-1 looks better. What reason is there for existence of BD if it produces lower quality pictures? We pay more to get less?
The question is rather not how release titles look but how common and AAA titles look when the format(s) have had time to mature and gained working routines. At that time the comparison is likely between HD-DVD 30 and BD 50 with same potential codecs used.
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post #4147 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
My reading is - for catalog (i.e. old movies) they will use VC-1 and for new (yet to be released) movies the producer will have a choice. Is that correct ?
I interpreted original Japanese sentence "新作については映画監督など制作側が選択していますが、旧作に関してはわれわれWarnerがコーデックを選んでいま す" as "production side will choose the codec for its new release title, while Warner will choose the codec for catalog release". I interpreted this sentence implying that codec will be determined by title basis. But I could be wrong. At least, there is no indication shown in the paragraph that they'll stick with VC-1 for foreseeable future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
But, if Warner wants to do VC-1 for catalog, wouldn't they invest in necessary facilities / training etc ? Then why invest on H.264 as well ?
Digital Media Exchange (Warner's subsidiary post house) could have variety of customer, not only WHV. WHV won't invest equipments. Post house does. If that post house have an ability to do BD authoring/H.264 encoding, there could be a more business chance to get customer who wants to release BD title or HD DVD title using H.264.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj
1. Tools for BR authoring with VC-1 are available.
2. Tools for BR authoring with VC-1 are not available.

If (1), why is Sony using MPEG2 ? If (2) how will Warner release on BR using VC-1.
The interview article doesn't mention anything about this. I think we need to think Sony and Warner separately. Sony/SPE has its own agenda. Warner has its own strategy. Maybe SPE thought real time = productivity = number of release-able titles is the key for them (they mentioned in a interview article that they'll release about 150 titles in a year (10 catalog release, 2 new release/month)). Maybe Sony Corp. wants all BD titles from SPE would be playable on its laptop PCs.
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post #4148 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm
I hope he doesn't take this the wrong way but even though I pride myself in understanding English by Japanese, I could not make clear sense of everything he said Adam Yokoi said in the interview. So having a good relationship with Adam, we pinged him on this.
First of all, I'm sorry for posting crappy English/translation here and thank you for being patient to read it.

Since original Japanese article itself is written in very vague in some parts, lacking subject and/or verb, so I had to assume those from the context. Also there are some sentences that can be interpreted in different meaning, so I could misunderstand.

If you point out which part is wrong, or post Adam Yokoi's direct opinion here, those would help me a lot to understand what Adam Yokoi really wants to say. BTW, did Adam Yokoi mentioned about correctness of original Japanese article?
http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle...7/news019.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Adam was surprised at the English text Rio provided. He said the translation did not reflect exactly what he said in some parts. His clarification was that when he spoke about AVC and VC-1, he was speaking on behalf of DVD Forum and its testing, not Warner's use of both codecs. And that they are committed to using VC-1 for HD DVD titles.
I'd like to post original Japanese article here:
Quote:
コーデックは同じものを使うことになります。H.264とVC-1。どちらも基本的には同じです。横浜で2回、グレンデール(Warnerのあるバーバンクの隣町)で2回、パラマウント近くの 劇場で1回。紙一重でVC-1の方が勝ちましたが、現時点で両コーデックの実力はほぼ同等だと思います。
The first sentence "コーデックは同じものを使うことになります", I think, could be interpreted 2 ways: one is "(We'll) use same codec (for both formats)", the other is "(We'll) use (or stick to) one codec (for all titles)". This sentence doesn't have a subject and an object. Words in brackets are words I assumed from context. The first interpretation makes sense, then I wrote it. The second interpretation could be true, but it seems conflicting later sentence, so I thought that was not correct interpretation.

The second sentence "H.264とVC-1" just says "H.264 and VC-1". No subject and verb. The third sentence "どちらも基本的には同じです" means "Both are basically same", it's very clear.

The fourth sentence, according to Amir, is the one made Adam surprised, "横浜で2回、グレンデール(Warnerのあるバーバンクの隣町)で2回、パラマウント近くの劇場で1回". There is no subject and verb in this sentence. From the context, there is no implication what subject is, so I had to assume both of them, then I wrote "(We tested them)" with brackets.

Last sentence "紙一重でVC-1の方が勝ちましたが、現時点で両コーデックの実力はほぼ同等だと思います" says "VC-1 won (those tests) by a hair, but we think both codecs' capability is same at this moment".

Now, for Adam Yokoi and Amir, the difference between "we (implies Warner)" and "DVD Forum" seem to be huge difference. For me, I don't really care about this difference, but I do care that Adam Yokoi thought the difference between VC-1 and H.264 is very thin, even though H.264 status at the DVD Forum is H.264 MP, not HP. This opinion is different from Amir's claim that H.264 is softer with loop filter, otherwise it'll suffer for block noises. I don't agree to that assertion, from what I saw H.264 HP demo on 1080p 65" plasma at Panasonic CES booth, some of their clips were very sharp and found no block/mosquito noises and some other reports got same impression as mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
His clarification was that when he spoke about AVC and VC-1, he was speaking on behalf of DVD Forum and its testing, not Warner's use of both codecs. And that they are committed to using VC-1 for HD DVD titles.
Does this mean Warner will stick to VC-1, at least for all HD DVD titles? Then, whole paragraph doesn't make sense at all. Why did the interviewer misunderstand that production side will choose the codec for new release, while it is already determined?
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post #4149 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by WriteSimple
I don't know much about DLNA. But I seriously think that DLNA and PS3 as a media center will be the TWO other competing versions of networked home media systems than the one espoused by Microsoft via Vista. That is why they fought hard for iHD and VC-1, and that's why they are fighting hard for HD-DVD. I don't know how DLNA would do it but PS3 would use Lynux to run it's home media center, according to articles I've read so far.
There's another horse in the media server race, HANA (The High-Definition Audio-Video Network Alliance). HANA, which is backed by companies including Samsung, Mitsubishi, JVC, NBC Universal, is trying to build a framework for pushing HD content around your home network without the Windows-centric aspects of DLNA (namely UPnP). Lots of HANA-enabled devices were shown at CES (i.e. set-top box delivering content over a home coax network to a TV in another room with full control communication between devices from a single remote). Many of the companies involved indicated they intend to release products in the marketplace this year.

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post #4150 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Is this forcing people to adopt a Microsoft centric view? Not at all. DirectTV still uses their own Conditional Access technology to secure their live transmission. They could choose to work with Apple and also implement fairplay. They could adopt one of the other third-party DRMs. We don’t stop them from doing anything like this. There is no exclusivity whatsoever. Heck, we have a Pioneer BD player with the same functionality! We simply allow them connect to our world and let our joint customers have freedom to move their content between those two domains. Same thing is true of the Pioneer BD player.
Yet your strategy ignores the fact that there are many devices and specifications which support H.264/AVC but not VC-1, while there are few (if any) that support VC-1 without supporting H.264/AVC. US cable operators, DirecTV, and Dish Network are just a few prominent examples of companies who have selected AVC for broadcast without announced VC-1 support. Only supporting VC-1 is yet another example of Microsoft using a dominant market position to attempt to advantage your other technologies at a cost of supporting reasonable interoperability.

Quote:
Would the world be a happier place if the DRM did not come from Microsoft? People used to think so until OMA DRM came out and it had licensing fees that were so high that knocked people off their feet (remember the huge IP royalties we paid above!). DRM IP is concentrated in a few companies and they take strong advantage of the market situation to charge very high fees. In this case, OMA DRM is controlled by Philips, Matsushita (both BD core members), and Intertrust. So as you see, there is no free ride here. You can have “open†but you then pay through the nose.
Perhaps in support of "making the world a happier place" you'd like to commit Microsoft to participating in Open Media Commons, whose first goal is to "Develop open, royalty-free digital rights management and codec solutions"?

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post #4151 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Escamillo
But disgruntled former employees aren't the best source of insight into a company's motives/agenda.
No, they are often the best source of insight, as they will often provide insider information which a current employee can't or won't. You just have to recognize that the source has a bias which may have influenced how that information gets reported.

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post #4152 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
No, they are often the best source of insight, as they will often provide insider information which a current employee can't or won't. You just have to recognize that the source has a bias which may have influenced how that information gets reported.
I tend to agree with this. Though I bit my tongue and resisted posting it myself at the time.

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post #4153 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 06:06 AM
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Maybe this has been posted somewhere else but...

Quote:
The higher pricing structure for new releases is meant to accommodate the sell-through and rental markets, said Benjamin Feingold, president of Sony Pictures Home Entertainment. He noted that in at the dawn of DVD in 1997, most movies initially were released on rental-price videocassettes.

"The premium is for a way better format and to remind retailers that at the time we launched DVD, VHS was selling for $55 wholesale in the first window," Feingold said.

He added that Sony will not attach any suggested list prices to its Blu-ray Discs, at least not at this time.

"From the retail perspective, this is going to be a hot product, and retailers will no doubt determine their own margin structure," he said. "We believe in a free market."

(snip)

"With the launch of Blu-ray, we're going to try to introduce the managed-copy concept, where, if you buy Blu-ray, you'll be able to get additional versions (of the same title) to use in your home," Feingold said. "Ultimately, we might even get to the point where we'll offer consumers the ability to have different versions of the same movie on different devices in the home--that's something we're working on."
The full article is here.


Very interesting bit of news. Can't wait for them to announce the release dates later this week. :cool:

EDIT: After reading the article once more, I find the article very exciting and almost revealing what Sony plans to do with the PSP via PS3. By starting with DVD+UMD, they are training PS3 buyers to love the concept of having it both ways (sound rather dirty, I know) with DVD and UMD. Then when PS3 launches, this training will be finally revealed with Blu-Ray movie titles where PS3 will allow a UMD version to be downloaded into the PSP (provided it has enough memory). Good training and trial of Managed Copy.


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post #4154 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 06:14 AM
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Just posted a correction to the Sony BD pricing story in that thread if anyone's interested--Sony has apparently recanted on stipulating MSRPs on BD titles.

Feingold, in discussing Sony's BD wholesale pricing for BD, let slip with some juicy tidbits:

-- Sony has said up until now that they would launch SPHE titles when the PS3 launched...they aren't saying this anymore, lending credence to the reality that the PS3 launch in NA, at least, has slipped beyond what they wanted...as such, Feingold confirmed that BD titles will now ship *before* the PS3 ships, and they're scrambling to make sure that they have non-PS3 hardware in the channel to support this reworked launch

-- SCE plans to have "up to" 2,000,000 PS3s available within the first few weeks of its launch, but said they don't plan on revealing their launch date(s) anytime soon, or their launch strategy (i.e., global or regional)

-- Did someone say managed copy? Feingold certainly did..."with the launch of Blu-ray, we're going to try to introduce the managed-copy concept, where if you buy Blu-ray you'll be able to get additional versions (of the same title) to use in your home," which he then followed up with a not-so-subtle hint that they'll mimic their physical DVD/UMD *bundling* scenario...so, one interpretation of MC (and MMC) in Sony's world means you buy a DVD/BD bundle, or a UMD/BD bundle...or the utlimate in MC friendliness, a DVD/UMD/BD bundle...of course, you're paying upfront for all of this, whether you want it or not

-- Only allowing BD titles to be sold alongside BD HW is really pi$$ing some retailers off...and it remains to be seen if rental channels will get slapped with the same restrictions

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post #4155 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by amillians
Just posted a correction to the Sony BD pricing story in that thread if anyone's interested
.
.
.
-- Only allowing BD titles to be sold alongside BD HW is really pi$$ing some retailers off...and it remains to be seen if rental channels will get slapped with the same restrictions
What's up with that? If HD DVD discs are actually all over the place in a few months it seems Sony can't afford to make it very restrictive looking for BD. What are they trying to accomplish here?

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post #4156 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians
Just posted a correction to the Sony BD pricing story in that thread if anyone's interested--Sony has apparently recanted on stipulating MSRPs on BD titles.
Sorry, alex, but you're misreading the Video Business article.

Quote:
[...]
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment president Benjamin Feingold said Tuesday that new release Blu-ray titles from the studio will carry a wholesale price to retailers of $23.45 while catalog titles will be priced at $17.95.

That should put the top cash register prices at about $34.95 and $29.95, respectively.
[...]
That second paragraph was obviously the reporter's calculation of where MSRPs would be, going from the wholesale prices. Nowhere is Feingold quoted as giving MSRPs. So he cannot recant from something he hasn't said, can he?

Quote:
-- Sony has said up until now that they would launch SPHE titles when the PS3 launched...they aren't saying this anymore, lending credence to the reality that the PS3 launch in NA, at least, has slipped beyond what they wanted...as such, Feingold confirmed that BD titles will now ship *before* the PS3 ships, and they're scrambling to make sure that they have non-PS3 hardware in the channel to support this reworked launch
Link? I've got all the Sony CES press releases, and their CES slideshow, where it very clearly says "Launch Timing Concurrent with First Players available at Retail". No PS3.

Most of the rest of your post is cut-and-paste from the Hollywood Reporter article fuad just posted.

You're slipping, Alex. ;)

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post #4157 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 07:01 AM
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You're leeping, Grubert. :)

I'm quoting from multiple sources, including CED.

-- Feingold said SPHE's plan was to launch it's first wave of BD titles "day and date with the rollout of PS3"...that plan has been changed

-- An early report on Feingold's interview noted that MSRPs and firms street dates would be released soon...now it's just the street dates

Here's another tidbit you won't find (yet) in the public press...Feingold went on record that he "hopes" to wholesale price their two 50GB titles the same as their 25GB titles, but that "no final decision has been made." Why? Because they have no clue what 50GB is going to cost, and Singulus doesn't look like they're going to be able to deliver even an alpha DL expansion module in time, so they've going to likely be running these discs off one of their two Japanese lab lines.

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post #4158 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 07:09 AM
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Just some quick clarifictations on my comments last night about Adam Yokoi. We only asked Adam about the codec choice. We did not ask him to comment on anything else and he did not do so on his own either. The reason was that the codec choice impacted their official and public position regrding usage of VC-1 so we wanted to make sure nothing had changed there. The rest of the information is not an issue for Adam to clarify since that is not his job (he is not in the operational side of things where encoding, codec choices, etc. occur). Even though I was happy to see him confirm that BD tiltes are way behind ("up to a year") in his interview, I personally don't put a lot of weight there either. Other people will make these decisions and a lot market forces impact such time frames. So there, I gave you back your gift :).

And yes, whoever says you have no proof here and rather ingore all of this, you are welcome to do so. But you better get good at understanding Japanese and read Rio's recent post :).

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post #4159 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by amillians
You're leeping, Grubert. :)
My dictionary jumps from leek to leer. And the wikipedia only lists LEEP as "loop electrosurgical excision procedure". But then again, I'm just a wanker, am I?

Quote:
I'm quoting from multiple sources, including CED.
Didn't you say just yesterday that CED couldn't be trusted? :p

You say SPHE's plan was to launch its first wave of BD titles "day and date with the rollout of PS3". I have evidence that says otherwise. What's yours?

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post #4160 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nataraj
Tom,

Can you answer this question ?
I am trying to understand exactly what you are asking. I suppose that you want 1) deinterlacing and temporal upsampling of 1080/30I content to 1080/60P, and/or 2) 3:2 frame repeats of 1080/24P content with export in a 1080/60P container, and/or 3) temporal resampling of 1080/24P content to 1080/60P. (We all know, I think, that there is no support for native 1080/60 content on the disc itself.)

In checking with our cable/satellite STB people, and the people working with our blue laser partners, I hear that there has been no real business interest in having us support these various modes of operation until relatively recently. But I am told that there is no reason we can't support some or all of these modes if and when somebody really orders this from us (and can articulate exactly what they really want).

I understand that 1080/60P inputs to displays themselves have recently become an interesting capability, and that people then map this back onto the players, but there are a variety of ways that one can process the types of content that might be on a blue laser disc and there's no consensus that I am aware of as to what our customers really want to do between point A and point B.

There's also the questions of where this processing might best be done. Some seem to believe that doing this (doubling (or more) the bandwidth!) in the player is NOT the right thing, and that it might best be done in the next stage (either the audio video receiver or the display engine itself).

So given all the above, what would you like to see done with the 1080/24P or 1080/30i content?

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post #4161 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 07:32 AM
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*A* wanker? Come now, you're *the* wanker, if anything... :)

My evidence is an interview between Benjamin Feingold and CES done last night and published today. Unlike the pablum that gets put into press releases and regurgitated as news, sometimes actually taking the time to talk to the person in charge can yield new insights:

"Feingold said SPHE had hoped to launch its first Blu-ray titles day and date with the rollout of PS3"

This sentiment has been noted in CED many times. Of *course* Sony wanted to tie Blu-ray and PS3 together...it's a masterstroke. That's not logistically possible given the slips in the PS3, so, they untie and make due, and we're now going to hear about availability and price for their BD deck...but do you think they'll give us the dealer cost on the deck, or the MSRP? Do you think their "let the market decide" philosophy of going public with wholesale media costs in lieu of actual prices (for the good of the format!) will translate to their hardware as well?

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post #4162 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 07:42 AM
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Just an FYI, I have it on very good authority that some HD DVD Titles are being done with MPEG-2. So it is not just some BD-ROM Titles using MPEG-2 in the early stages of the respective rollouts.

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post #4163 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians
*A* wanker? Come now, you're *the* wanker, if anything... :)
"Don't knock masturbation; it's sex with someone I love" :D

Now to the point:

Quote:
Feingold said SPHE had hoped to launch its first Blu-ray titles day and date with the rollout of PS3
Oh, now we're getting somewhere. You had said:

Quote:
Sony has said up until now that they would launch SPHE titles when the PS3 launched...
Nice backpedalling. :p

So, can we agree that Sony never said they would launch the movies with the PS3 and move on?

Thanks.

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post #4164 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 07:49 AM
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I don't see how you can take Tom's statement as "confirmation" of anything.
Hence I put confirmation in quotes.

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Moreover, I don't see how Tom's statemtents regarding Microsoft are any more credible than Amir's. Amir works for Microsoft but Tom clearly has an axe to grind against his former employer. Both have agendas that would shape their statements regarding Microsoft.
I never said they were more credible. I take both for what they are worth. I then weigh this against my own thoughts and theories as to what is really going on here.


Quote:
But at least we know the reasons for Amir's favorable statements regarding Microsoft; we (at least I) don't know what happened to make Tom despise his former employer and constantly trash them on this forum. But disgruntled former employees aren't the best source of insight into a company's motives/agenda.
Really? So because he's a former employee of Microsoft, we automatically discount what he is saying? Interesting. Sorry, but I don't see it that way. Who better to tell us "inside" information/motives than someone who sat at the table? Sure, you gotta take it for what it's worth, but you cannot competely discount it either. What you're implying is that we can hear non-stop from biased folks who work for Microsoft, but then when someone responds the other way we should throw it out because they are biased against Microsoft. Talk about a double-standard.

And if people reading this forum don't find this codec talk a bit odd, I don't know what is "odd" then. Weigh that vs. who we know is using/facilitating a particular codec and where their loyalties lie. Then contrast that to the "open arms" and "we're willing to help" comment. If one were to believe the "best intentions" are at work here, then you are blind or extremely gullable.

As Amir would say, "The dots are starting to connect".
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post #4165 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 08:00 AM
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Congratulations, Grubert...I post a summary of an interview with the head of SPHE, wherein he formalizes a change in their original launch plans and their current launch plans, which confirms suspicions of such a change from previous interviews he's given CED, and you take this as an opportunity to Bill Clinton the meaning of is. And point out the fact that I don't spell check things.

If you remember a while back (try, if you will), in the old thread, I posted another piece from CED wherein it was hinted that Sony was backpeddling on their plans to formally launch Blu-ray proper with the release of the PS3, because of perceived problems with getting PS3s into the channel in the timeframe they expected Blu-ray to be primed for release. Well, Feingold just sealed the deal for this switch, on the record.

And yet you can't take off the Blu blinders to see the real story here, that PS3 has *really* slipped, in a tangible way, and we have a Sony exec basically confirming this (although definitely not his intent...no, Sony will say that Blu-ray is *early* now, not that the PS3 is going to be late).

Methinks I'm wasting my time here. Wank on...

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post #4166 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom McMahon
...I have it on very good authority that some HD DVD Titles are being done with MPEG-2.
So it looks like every single HD DVD movie will be done in MPEG-2 in perpetuity. That's a definite disadvantage since every single HD DVD movie will be done in MPEG-2 in perpetuity. Amir, isn't it a shame that every single HD DVD movie will be done in MPEG-2 in perpetuity?
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post #4167 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 08:20 AM
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amillians,

When I said 'backpedalling', I didn't mean SPHE. I meant you.

You reported Sony as saying something they didn't say. You made a mistake. Big deal. Don't make it worse by attacking me.

Oh, and saying you hope to do something and saying you plan to do something isn't the same thing.

Quote:
And yet you can't take off the Blu blinders to see the real story here, that PS3 has *really* slipped, in a tangible way, and we have a Sony exec basically confirming this (although definitely not his intent...no, Sony will say that Blu-ray is *early* now, not that the PS3 is going to be late).
Late, with regard to what? With what they said at E3 2005 ("Spring")? They could release the PS3 in Japan in June 18 and they'd be meeting their deadline. Anything else is gravy.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
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post #4168 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 08:33 AM
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TG Daily weighs in on the fracas. Plenty for everyone to get worked up about.

Sony Pictures aims for $35 retail for Blu-ray movies

Quote:
Los Angeles (CA) - In an unusual announcement made public this morning through Reuters, Sony Pictures - the parent company of Columbia Pictures, Screen Gems Pictures, MGM, and United Artists - stated it has worked out a premium tier pricing scheme for its premiere release of Blu-ray Disc-based movie titles. The new pricing scheme should enable US retail "first window" movie prices averaging $35.

Video Business Online broke the story this morning that the president of Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, Benjamin Feingold, stated that new release movie titles would sell to resellers for $23.45, with catalog titles - older movies, generally including classics, that boutiques keep on hand - will sell for $17.95. VBO noted that, at current retail markup rates - which are lower than they have been historically - classic movies on BD should sell for prices averaging $30 - a 20% premium over standard definition DVD prices.

Today's news is the first indication from content providers of the recorded video segment of the entertainment economy, at least for 2007 and 2008. Producers of HD DVD titles, such as Warner, Universal, and Paramount, have yet to announce their projected wholesale prices, though they certainly cannot afford to sell for much higher than the "line in the sand" the BD camp leader has drawn this morning.

From here, the question becomes, will the consumer notice a 20% benefit in owning a Blu-ray title versus owning a DVD? Besides the obvious resolution and performance improvements, one area in which consumers expect both high-def formats to distinguish themselves, involves functionality. Consumers have been promised a richer interactive experience from high-def discs. But sources tell TG Daily that, besides one improvement demonstrated last month at CES in Las Vegas - being able to overlay the disc's main menu along one edge of the screen while the movie is still playing - the first wave of both BD and HD DVD titles will most likely not include the high degree of functionality initially promised.

The reason is because the standards underlying both technologies - Blu-ray Java, and the iHD interactive layer for HD DVD - require APIs for interfacing with disc player hardware, that have yet to be finalized, and may conceivably not be written in firmware even as the first players are introduced into the market. HD DVD manufacturers already indicated last month that the first wave of their high-def equipment may not be full-featured.

This creates the possibility of a future situation which Sony Pictures' Feingold has not spoken to: a future wave of "special edition" or "enhanced" high-def movie titles which include the full functionality that consumers were promised, at a slightly higher price, at least during the period while older, lower-functionality high-def titles are being phased out. This morning's VDO story did not explore that possibility, though it did take into account that Sony Pictures has already started a bundling program, where DVD and UMD cuts of the same movie (the latter for PlayStation Portable) are boxed together for a discount. The publication speculated that Sony Pictures and other content producers may follow this model in creating a bundling tier which packages the DVD and BD cut of a movie. If so, this demonstrates content providers' flexibility with their high-def marketing schemes.

In one of the more telling quotes from the VBO article, Sony Pictures' Feingold indicated that the company's marketing push may initially favor electronics retailers over movie rental stores and boutiques. "Our intent is to create a critical mass of movies and displays at retail that will showcase the escalating availability and abundance of both [Blu-ray Disc] software and hardware in the marketplace," Feingold said. "There's no point in putting software into outlets that don't carry the hardware in the beginning."

Feingold's comments have a familiar historical ring to them In the mid-1980s, Apple Computer was reluctant to see Macintosh software pushed in stores that refused to carry Mac computers. As a result, the burgeoning wave of software superstores that sprouted in the West and Southwest US during that period, catered to the MS-DOS and Windows customer almost exclusively. So when those stores had enough capital on hand to begin carrying hardware full-time, they turned their backs on Apple the same way Apple did for them. It was one of that company's "junior mistakes," and is a key reason why the key retail channel for Macs today is Apple's own stores. While a circuit of exclusive retail "Sony Stores" seems unlikely, one wonders whether Sony can afford to alienate an entire retail category, especially when a competitive format lurks just a few microns behind.
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post #4169 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 08:38 AM
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^^No, lots of people here like to disregard the history of Sony launches and assume it means a US release. ;)
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post #4170 of 7981 Old 02-08-2006, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Grubert
Late, with regard to what? With what they said at E3 2005 ("Spring")? They could release the PS3 in Japan in June 18 and they'd be meeting their deadline. Anything else is gravy.
From Feingolds comments, among other things, it's looking more and more like they're going to miss their Spring launch even for Japan. We'll find out at E3 in May I'm sure....
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