HD formats in PAL regions. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 620 Old 04-19-2006, 03:31 AM
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europe only wants 25p support because the number of hdtv there, is riculous, 25p playback is made for people using their good old 576i CRT television with an HD player and a scart, that's all.

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It appears that it will not be a problem at all for Blu-ray players to easily generate 24p output, that is what I was trying to say. HD-DVD 24p output will be more tricky.
why would that be, HD-DVD and BRD share the same encode and storing method, on both formats films are stored at 1080 24p (at least in NTSC land)

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #92 of 620 Old 04-19-2006, 05:21 AM
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Why would someone with an old 576 CRT buy an HD disc when the DVD will probably be far cheaper and provide the same quality experience? I'm not sure that there's any presure from European governments on Hollywood studios or Japanese CE companies to force all content into 25p. It seems to just be to provide and option for native 25p content, not all content.
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post #93 of 620 Old 04-19-2006, 12:56 PM
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Its almost certain that European players will support all HD formats, DVD players supported PAL and NTSC here from the very first players released and displays have supported both since the late 80s. My problem is not with the support, what worries me is we might 25fps/50hz media for Film again. The tiny number of TVs that dont support NTSC will generally support the halfbreed "Pal-60" format, anything that doesnt support this will likely not even have a scart or composite connector but then again maybe EU bureaucracy can force an Aerial connection :)

I'm really looking forward to Canal's support, they own chunks of the Lionsgate catalogue including the likes of T2, Resevoir Dogs and Total Recall but they better not mess up with 25/50 mastering.
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post #94 of 620 Old 04-19-2006, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issac Hunt
I'm not sure that there's any presure from European governments on Hollywood studios or Japanese CE companies to force all content into 25p.
Here in Australia (a PAL region) there absolutely positively is no government law that mandates

* 24p content must be speedup 4% to 25p
* Packaged media (DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-ray) must be tied to the 50Hz transmission standard.

This is supported by the fact that between 5%-10% of the available DVDs sold are in NTSC format. For example the following DVDs: Citizen Kane, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (Gene Wilder version), Easter Parade, and Billy Joel Live at Yankee Stadium (to name a small few) were infact sold in NTSC format.

The WWE (formally World Wrestling Federation) does good business selling DVDs. Well here in Australia they sell all their DVDs in NTSC format.

Let me emphasize again, 60Hz replay in PAL regions is NOT a problem.

I think some old-school members of the DVD Forum do not understand that. I think they believe that PAL regions must be given 4% speeded films, sigh :(

I think they feel that HD-DVDs must be compatible with TVs sold in the mid-80s, or some weak excuse like that. Let me repeat, there is no law against selling 24p based material, no-one will go to jail (trust me) :D

With DVDs (mid 90s technology) I can understand the 50Hz/60Hz split. With this new generation of optical formats those boundaries should not apply anymore, 24p should be available to everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar
My problem is not with the support, what worries me is we might 25fps/50hz media for Film again.
All indications are that HD-DVD will do exactly that in PAL regions.

See sspears quote

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7461088

I think my original post may still come to pass.

HD-DVDs will be speedup 4% in PAL regions.
Blu-ray will/may be delivered in 24p format since it appears that 1080p25 does not exist as a native Blu-ray format (1080i50 does appear and could be used). Note, there is still some debate about this point.

AVS Forum loves to debate, VC-1 vs MPEG2, 30GB vs 25GB, HD-DVD player cost vs Blu-ray player cost etc etc.

For many of us in PAL regions a very very important point may be "4% speedup" vs "24p replay". Blu-ray may (emphasis on "may") have a very clear advantage over HD-DVD in this regards.

I probably should try to get in touch with the Blu-ray Disc Association and find out what the PAL regions story truely is.

You lucky soles in NTSC land don't have to worry about this. Some of us in PALville are not happy with how HD-DVD appears to be turning out, Blu-ray is a little unknown at the moment.

Dennis
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post #95 of 620 Old 04-19-2006, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vairulez
why would that be, HD-DVD and BRD share the same encode and storing method, on both formats films are stored at 1080 24p (at least in NTSC land)
Read Ron's post carefully,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7434559

The general emphasis seems to be that HD-DVD is more concerned about the easy generation of 60Hz output (much like DVD). Blu-ray appears to be more concerned about the easy storage of 24p material, hence we are seeing generation 1 Blu-ray players that will output 1080p24 (such as the Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray player).

No slight on either technology, but it does appear that Blu-ray is more elegantly designed with regards to 24p storage and 24p output.

Dennis.
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post #96 of 620 Old 04-20-2006, 06:14 AM
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it might be more elegant but for films stored and encoded in 1080p24, it won't change anything, only mixed content (not films) will be tricky. But there is no reason to watch bonus at 24 Hz

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #97 of 620 Old 04-20-2006, 07:02 AM
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Why would a company distributing content for both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have 2 versions of a movie, 24fps and 25fps for the same region? They wouldn't. I don't think HD-DVD is mandating that HD-DVD movies in PAL countries are 25fps. It's the distributors who are releasing the content at 25fps and that's why it is added to the specs of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, because the studios wanted it that way. I have a NTSC dvd from a PAL country, did the DVD Forum mandate that all PAL discs be in PAL? Must not because I have a NTSC DVD released in a PAL region from a company that releases most their movies in PAL (Tartan Battle Royale NTSC dvd was released in Europe) in the region. The DVD Forum didn't stop them from releasing the NTSC dvd in Europe nor would they stop any company from wanting to release 24p movies in HD-DVD in PAL regions. It's the studios decision not the decision of the format. IMO.

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post #98 of 620 Old 04-20-2006, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Phule
I don't think HD-DVD is mandating that HD-DVD movies in PAL countries are 25fps. It's the distributors who are releasing the content at 25fps and that's why it is added to the specs of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. It's the studios decision not the decision of the format. IMO.
Ja Phule,

You are correct, nothing is mandatory. However, the problem with HD-DVD is the language in the requirements specification. Let me highlight a few sections from that document.

"In the case of 60Hz region, 3:2 pull down is mandatory"
"In addition, such 24p elementary video streams can be converted during content creation (authoring) to corresponding 50Hz elementary video streams."
"The encoded frame rate of primary video and secondary video shall be 60Hz for 60Hz region and 50Hz for 50Hz region"

The third quote is the killer. It is practically dictating the 4% SHOULD be used in 50Hz regions. I am sorry I must disagree with you Ja Phule, I believe that the HD-DVD specification is "nearly" mandating that 50Hz encoding should be used in 50Hz regions (rather than it being purely a studio decision, the specification appears to be driving what a studio should do). That is the issue, the spirit of the HD-DVD specification is old-school and wrong in this HD age (think DVD only with 480i60/576i50 replaced with 1080i[60/50]).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Phule
It's the distributors who are releasing the content at 25fps and that's why it is added to the specs of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray
There is debate about whether 1080p25 does in fact exist in the Blu-ray specification. I have seen no conclusive evidence that it does, sspears says it does, however kjack and dr1394 are not so sure about that. Let me quote dr1394

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394
I just looked at the BD specification, and I concur that 1080p@25 does not appear
It could well be that in PAL regions 1080p24 for Blu-ray "may" be used. If it does (big if) then that will be a huge advantage over HD-DVD which currently appears will be using 4% speedup.

Note, I do agree that a HD-DVD studio could issue 1080p24 (with 3:2 pull down) in PAL regions. However, that is not appearing to be the current reality.

All home theater fans in PAL regions need to be aware of these issues. 4% speedup is a blight, 24p is the future, these next generation optical formats should be offering up 24p to everyone.

Dennis.
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post #99 of 620 Old 04-20-2006, 08:34 PM
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If it's true, and it ends up causing a problem, I bet they just change that policy. :)
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post #100 of 620 Old 04-21-2006, 01:12 AM
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they haven't changed that policy for vhs and dvd, i'm afraid there are too few people knowing about this issue and caring about it

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #101 of 620 Old 04-21-2006, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vairulez
they haven't changed that policy for vhs and dvd, i'm afraid there are too few people knowing about this issue and caring about it
ok, we'll import disks from US Amazon then

I live in Germany and do it anyway. Buying DVD at amazon.com + postal costs to Europe is yet cheaper in most cases than buying DVD at amazon.de.

Local rent shops are the problem though.
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post #102 of 620 Old 04-21-2006, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
24p is the future, these next generation optical
formats should be offering up 24p to everyone.
Agreed.

Blu-ray seems much more "native 24P" oriented. One of the reasons I'm supporting it.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #103 of 620 Old 04-21-2006, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlb99
Read Ron's post carefully,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7434559

The general emphasis seems to be that HD-DVD is more concerned about the easy generation of 60Hz output (must like DVD). Blu-ray appears to be more concerned about the easy storage of 24p material, hence we are seeing generation 1 Blu-ray players that will output 1080p24 (such as the Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray player).

No slight on either technology, but it does appear that Blu-ray is more elegantly designed with regards to 24p storage and 24p output.

Dennis.
(Yawn... ) I'll bet that the studios who release on both formats will do exactly the same coding for BOTH BR and HD DVD. Whether they do 1080p24 or 1080p25, it'll be identical for both formats. Most likely they will both be in 1080p24 anyway - nothing you have cited precludes either format from supporting that.

This discussion is quite likely an exercise in futility, as it postulates something that is extremely unlikely to happen and suggests that it makes one format better than the other.

Both BR and HD DVD are going to be treated exactly the same by most studios, in my common-sense view....

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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post #104 of 620 Old 04-21-2006, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
(Yawn... ) I'll bet that the studios who release on both formats will do exactly the same coding for BOTH BR and HD DVD.
rdjam, the fact is that we know that all Blu-ray players can support 1080p24 playback. On the other hand has any reliable source said the same thing for all HD-DVD players? If not than your statement is based on your optimism about HD-DVD and not on any actual information.
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post #105 of 620 Old 04-21-2006, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
(Yawn... )This discussion is quite likely an exercise in futility, as it postulates something that is extremely unlikely to happen and suggests that it makes one format better than the other.
If in PAL regions Blu-ray offers 24p formatted films "and" HD-DVD offers 25p formatted films then Blu-ray will be the better format, period. Lots of "ifs", I know.

Also, I will state again, HD-DVD does have explicit support for 1080p25. It appears that Blu-ray does NOT have explicit support 1080p25 (this is still a point of dispute). My original hypothesis still may come to pass, 4% speedup for HD-DVD and correct formatting for Blu-ray.

So to some of us in PAL land this discussion item is not a "Yawn" item. It may be to you, that's fine, but to many of us in PALville who hate 4% speedup I can assure it is not.

What Blu-ray actually will do in PAL regions is still currently unknown.

Dennis.
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post #106 of 620 Old 04-21-2006, 09:19 PM
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What if PAL region studios want 25fps on movies and Blu-Ray can't do 1080p25. Would that mean they wouldn't do 1080p at all and just do 720p50/1080i50? ;)

But in my own way, I am King. Hail to the King, baby.


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post #107 of 620 Old 04-21-2006, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Phule
What if PAL region studios want 25fps on movies and Blu-Ray can't do 1080p25. Would that mean they wouldn't do 1080p at all and just do 720p50/1080i50? ;)
Yes, that is possible.

They could also ship 576i50 Blu-ray formatted films to really punish us PAL region neanderthals ;)

I get the distinct impression (maybe incorrectly) that the Blu-ray way of doing films would be to ship 1080p24 everywhere, since the standard has an explicit pigeon hole for that format (but not 1080p25, it seems).

The HD-DVD way of doing films it seems (again maybe incorrectly on my part) is based on the legacy 60Hz and 50Hz demarcation, split the world up again :mad:

The question also has to be asked of film studios, "wouldn't it be easier and simpler just to have one 1080p24 encode of a film instead of two". Hello, film studios, save money, good thing, correct film speed, good thing, hello anyone home :)

Caveat, Blu-ray can still turn into poop for us in PAL land.

Dennis.
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post #108 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Phule
What if PAL region studios want 25fps on movies and Blu-Ray can't do 1080p25. Would that mean they wouldn't do 1080p at all and just do 720p50/1080i50? ;)
If the people will accept a horrendous 1080/25p encoding, I doubt they will have a problem with a 1080/50i encoding. :rolleyes:
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post #109 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja Phule
What if PAL region studios want 25fps on movies and Blu-Ray can't do 1080p25. Would that mean they wouldn't do 1080p at all and just do 720p50/1080i50? ;)
I don't see why they would want to... It is extra work. Instead, they could release the same exact file in both regions. Not only cheaper, but it would lessen import/export across regions (if it is ever hacked.)

Dennis is right, the speedup is unacceptable. That should definitely be a "feature" we get rid of as we move into HD. It is, by itself, reason good enough to go HD. (Though, admittedly probably not for the general public...)

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post #110 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
rdjam, the fact is that we know that all Blu-ray players can support 1080p24 playback. On the other hand has any reliable source said the same thing for all HD-DVD players? If not than your statement is based on your optimism about HD-DVD and not on any actual information.
No - your statements are the ones based on optimism.

The studios will likely do the same thing on both formats, whatever "thing" that is.

As to what that "thing" will be, it's all speculation and wishfull thinking right now.

EDIT - (To clarify your apparent lack of understanding of my meaning) Your statements that there is some inherent difference between HD DVD and BR encoding on disc that will mean BR is better for people in PAL-land are based on not only speculation about what the studios will do, but on support of 1080p24 in some discussion as though HD DVD doesn't also support 1080p24 (it does) and a good dose of wishful thinking. Furthermore - I've ordered my Sky HD box and it will be installed in a couple of weeks. What do you think Sky will be transmitting? I don't know either, but I'll lay odds of it being 25/50 based, rather than 24 based. And the studios will encode multiple formats to suit each and every format? Probably not. They will likely do what is easier and cheaper. Both formats supporting 1080p24 have nothing to do with it.

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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post #111 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
No - your statements are the ones based on optimism.
rdjam, in what way was my statement that all Blu-ray players support 1080p24 playback based on optimism? It has even been confirmed by sspears so I don't see why you would call it optimistic.
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post #112 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 02:18 PM
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Clarifying a few things:

1. US studios do not have distribution rights in many countries. They have sold off those rights in many cases. The companies who have bought these rights make their own decisions, such as when they decided to publish same Hollywood movies in WMV-HD when the original studio did not. Indeed, some of these studios own rights to titles from some BD studios and will publish them instead in HD DVD in Europe!

2. Currently, Canal+ is the only studio that has declared intention to support these new formats. And they are in HD DVD camp. So for their titles, until/if they announce BD support, the frame rate for BD movies will be zero :).

3. I can not tell you which direction Canal+ will go. As I have noted, the tendency is strong in EU to use 25p for many reasons – none of which has to do with HD DVD/BD. As I have mentioned, we are working to convince people to use 24p if possible. But if they do not, and people believe in content reuse, any BD releases from the same distributors will also be in 25p. And if BD products don't have 25p in their spec as some say, they will shortly if these studios take that direction.

4. There is no requirement that any product produced in Europe only comply with European specs. So one can easily imagine those products supporting 24p and be able to playback discs that you can import from US/Japan, etc. If BD enforces region control though, then you won’t have this option but will with HD DVD as it currently stands.

Net, net, as has been noted, there is no information here to keep debating things as the key is the decision of the content owner. And that decision is not here, nor public.

Amir

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post #113 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 02:36 PM
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BTW, one thing that would be useful is for folks to educate the rest of us on the state of HD displays in EU that support 24p/1080i60. What percentage have them. Do the major brands support them, etc.

Thanks,
Amir

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post #114 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Indeed, some of these studios own rights to titles from some BD studios and will publish them instead in HD DVD in Europe!
True, but the reverse will happen as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
2. Currently, Canal+ is the only studio that has declared intention to support these new formats. And they are in HD DVD camp.
To be exact they are the only European studio to have announced which format they will release on. Their have already been several Japanese studios to announce support for either Blu-ray or HD-DVD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
And if BD products don't have 25p in their spec as some say, they will shortly if these studios take that direction.
Actually sspears had indicated that they already have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
4. There is no requirement that any product produced in Europe only comply with European specs.
Amir, I am surprised at you for letting a kernel of negative truth slip by like that ;). Seriously though this means that 1080p24 is not a requirement for all HD-DVD players. Now I am sure that some HD-DVD supporters will debate the importance of this, but worldwide 1080p24 support is an advantage for Blu-ray no matter how you look at it.
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post #115 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
True, but the reverse will happen as well.
Even if that happens, the benefit is not the same. BD titles that are exclusive in US, will be available for HD DVD from other markets. For example, Resident Evil has English soundtrack so I got to watch that in HD DVD. So one of the supposed advantages of BD is softened this way.

Quote:
To be exact they are the only European studio to have announced which format they will release on. Their have already been several Japanese studios to announce support for either Blu-ray or HD-DVD.
Last I checked, Japan does not use PAL :). And even there, Toshiba has already released a BD title in HD DVD.

Quote:
Actually sspears had indicated that they already have.
Then what is the debate? If that is the case, then you are just as likely to get BD titles in 25 than there is with HD DVD.

Quote:
Amir, I am surprised at you for letting a kernel of negative truth slip by like that ;). Seriously though this means that 1080p24 is not a requirement for all HD-DVD players.
You are drawing your own conclusions. That is not what I said. What I said is that your arguments are moot regardless of what the spec says or doesn't. If there is demand for 24p, it will be there. If there is not, it will sit there idle. MPEG-2 audio was supposed to be the audio stream for EU DVDs. Yet DD won over.

Quote:
Now I am sure that some HD-DVD supporters will debate the importance of this, but worldwide 1080p24 support is an advantage for Blu-ray no matter how you look at it.
Interesting that you didn't address any of the concrete points I mentioned. You have zero confirmation of what you say by anyone official. Don't you think BDA would play that up if it were an advantage for them? They have not even announced European titles let alone tell you what format they are in. If that is the level of attention they are giving to EU market, this should tell you something....

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post #116 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by amirm
BTW, one thing that would be useful is for folks to educate the rest of us on the state of HD displays in EU that support 24p/1080i60. What percentage have them. Do the major brands support them, etc.
Amir
100% of the available HDMI equipped HD displays in Europe and Australia will accept 1080i60. Especially since the EICTA announced its "HD Ready" label. Ironically prior to that label coming into be (Jan'ish 2005), some of the available HDMI sets could sync with 1080i60 but NOT 1080i50 (e.g some Panasonic plasmas with the HDMI plugin board).

In Australia we have had access to HD displays for a number of years (since 2001ish). From 2001 to 2005 the large majority of those displays (95% plus) only came with analogue (component, vga) connections. Of those sets, some will accept 1080i60 but not 1080i50 (e.g some Philips CRTs), some will accept 1080i50 but not 1080i60 (e.g some Panasonic CRTs), and some will accept both (e.g some Sony CRTs). These set owners are in limbo due to ICT.

However, when it comes to HDCP complience, all sets with HDMI in PAL regions will sync up with 1080i60 (and 720p60, 720p50, 1080i50). This is the demographic that HD-DVD and Blu-ray should be targetting.

Also note that most displays sold since 1990 in PAL regions could sync up to NTSC or PAL60 (PAL colour + 480i60).

Let me state again, 60Hz HD display on a HDMI equipped display will not be an issue in PAL regions.

Amir, it may interest you to know that Microsoft has released its XBox360 games in PAL regions with 60Hz HD framerates (e.g 720p60) instead of 50Hz. This absolutely is the correct thing to do and I congratulate Microsoft on that decision.

If the film studios did the same thing then that would be a great thing all round.

24p for everyone is my new motto.

Dennis.
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post #117 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 04:59 PM
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Thanks Dennis. That is very useful information (including the bit about the 360 :)).

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post #118 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Thanks Dennis. That is very useful information (including the bit about the 360 :)).
Amir
Thats ok Amir. Note, some of the 1080i50 only display owners are a little sad about the XBox360. However, that small section of the community needs to be (and has been) ignored.

HD games are designed around 60Hz, hence must be displayed at 60Hz. XBox360 is a very useful example highlighting that us in PAL land can cope with 60Hz :)

The EICTA European guidelines make the XBox360 (60Hz only) completely fine.

HD films at the correct speed would also please us PALlians.

Dennis.
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post #119 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 07:25 PM
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If HDTV runs at 50 fields per second, 24p film with 2-2 pulldown generates "PAL" speedup.
It is not the case with 25p film with 2-2 pulldown.
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post #120 of 620 Old 04-22-2006, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Even if that happens, the benefit is not the same. BD titles that are exclusive in US, will be available for HD DVD from other markets.
So the survival strategy of HD-DVD is to have people import most of their movies? Seriously Amir even you have to find this argument pretty thin since if HD-DVD has to rely on that than in the US at least they might as well throw in the towel now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Then what is the debate? If that is the case, then you are just as likely to get BD titles in 25 than there is with HD DVD.
Come now Amir those two are not necessarily related.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
You are drawing your own conclusions. That is not what I said. What I said is that your arguments are moot regardless of what the spec says or doesn't.
Amir, you would not be arguing this point so strongly if it was a moot issue nor would so many HD-DVD supporters be so strongly against this information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
If there is demand for 24p, it will be there. If there is not, it will sit there idle. MPEG-2 audio was supposed to be the audio stream for EU DVDs. Yet DD won over.
Sure, they might decide to change the HD-DVD specs to make 1080p24 mandatory for all HD-DVD players. You might want to try to do that now Amir since from the sounds of it Blu-ray already did :).


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Interesting that you didn't address any of the concrete points I mentioned.
Amir, no offense but your concrete points tend to be more like opinions on HD-DVD. Also remember when you used to hint that maybe the Toshiba HD-DVD players could be upgraded to output 1080p24? Well we certainly found out that wasn't possible since the decoder and the HDMI chip that are actually used in the player do not support it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
You have zero confirmation of what you say by anyone official.
Well I guess it depends on whether you consider sspears to be an official source of information about Blu-ray. And Amir it was lymzy that pointed out that sspears had already confirmed this information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Don't you think BDA would play that up if it were an advantage for them?
Amir, call me logical but wouldn't they need to start advertising in Europe for that to happen? Also I am not saying it is an advantages like larger capacity, higher maximum A/V bit rate, or more studio support. It is an advantage that would occur in PAL countries if the local distributors are smart enough to take advantage of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
They have not even announced European titles let alone tell you what format they are in. If that is the level of attention they are giving to EU market, this should tell you something....
Yeah, that their not planning to release their movies there for several more months. Come now Amir do you constantly have to take stabs at the BDA like this?
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