HiDef DVD News V - A Last Hope ?? - Page 92 - AVS Forum
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post #2731 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 10:26 AM
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And the biggest blunder with BluRay was they thought making two layers would be easy and didn't ready the advanced codecs in case it was not.


Both tactics are totally valid from an engineering point of view (regardless of what Amir says) and both have there pitfalls. These are hard problems. If they weren't somebody would have done it a long time ago.

my only confusion with all the spec chatter; why did HD-DVD choose to have such lower bandwidth than BluRay? It seems that is something they could have changed late in game when they found it might be an issue.
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post #2732 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Beveridge
Well, if it was a DVD game, it could only be MPEG2 right? So that's not exactly quite the slam you make it out to be. ;)
Games are data discs tho, right? So that file could be any format it wants to be, as long as the game code supplied the codec for it...

-Steve
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post #2733 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thomopolis
And the biggest blunder with BluRay was they thought making two layers would be easy and didn't ready the advanced codecs in case it was not.


Both tactics are totally valid from an engineering point of view (regardless of what Amir says) and both have there pitfalls. These are hard problems. If they weren't somebody would have done it a long time ago.

my only confusion with all the spec chatter; why did HD-DVD choose to have such lower bandwidth than BluRay? It seems that is something they could have changed late in game when they found it might be an issue.
So what's easier, building BD drives that have the same proven mechanical tolerances of DVD (.6 deg. tilt margin) or building HD-DVD drives that require a doubling of the precision of the disc reading mechanics because of the lower tilt margin error (.3 deg.) ?? And the bonus with BD by moving the read layer closer to the surface is you get 5X the storage capacity vs 3X for HD-DVD and still the BD data layers are just as easy to read as DVD data. You also keep the problems of maintaining precision at the disc manufacturing level instead of pushing out the problem in to the customer space where a faulty drive can keep precision of reading, causing problems with skipping (as is the situation with HD-DVD right now).

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post #2734 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
but what would that prove? it is like saying 1000$ a month is enough because if rent is 300$ and you just eat bread and water you have enough


also, you do realize that an HD DVD needs DD+ for tracks on DTHD. So your example wll only be two languages. How many have only 2? but hell

+ 20mbps for video (less then some movies today),
+ 5 mbps for IME (I am using your number)
+ 6.6 mbps for DTHD 7.1 24/48 (DD's example of a movie http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf//tec...0925_Final.pdf)
= 31.6 no menus, no other audio and already above 30
+ 1.9 mbps for 3xDD+640*3 rounded down
= 33.5
+ 1.5 for the rest (menus, subtitles....) -made up number, but could be anything, just wanted a round number
= 35
Aren't menus and subtitles part of IME, or is that considered seperate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP

as for dynamux
the issue is it is limited in what it can do peak in one language will coincide with the others so all 3 DD+ and DTHD will peak at the same time.
Have you or anybody verified this? I ask because not only are inflections, volume, and the base sounds of multiple languages different, they often are very out of sync. As an example I was at a convention in a stadium that had 3 languages going at the same time (pumped to different parts of the stadium via seperate PA speakers). Often times one language would take 30% longer to say the same thing. (How'd you guess it was German?)

-Steve
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post #2735 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 11:00 AM
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So I guess now we can dispel the myth that HD-DVD drives are simpler and easier to build than BD drives or maybe the HD-DVD drives have cheaper OPUs but just don't read HD-DVD discs very well..
That is the pure definition of FUD.

Just as your constant repeating of the 34% informal survey number is FUD. We don't have enough information to be sure at the is point and the problem you are citing is unknown in magnitude.
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Originally Posted by thomopolis
And the biggest blunder with BluRay was they thought making two layers would be easy and didn't ready the advanced codecs in case it was not.

Both tactics are totally valid from an engineering point of view (regardless of what Amir says) and both have there pitfalls. These are hard problems. If they weren't somebody would have done it a long time ago.

my only confusion with all the spec chatter; why did HD-DVD choose to have such lower bandwidth than BluRay? It seems that is something they could have changed late in game when they found it might be an issue.
I am unsure of this HD DVD decision as well. AFAIK it was a practical decision based on hardware issues and was seen as more than adequate for the task.

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post #2736 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by nataraj
They must be using mpeg2 and pcm audio ;)
From the article: "While the music and vocals in "Resistance" take up only about 1 Gigabyte of disc space, graphics, level data and programming code occupy most of the remaining 21."

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post #2737 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 11:13 AM
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Resistance doesn't look that impressive. Just seems like another FPS game.

Heavenly Sword and Lair look like they have a lot of production values.

I'm sure the next GT game will push the storage limits, just as GT4 was supposedly one of the few DVD-9 games for the PS2 and it pushed up against the limit.
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post #2738 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty
That is the pure definition of FUD. We don't have enough information to be sure at the is point and the problem you are citing is unknown in magnitude.
I am unsure of this HD DVD decision as well. AFAIK it was a practical decision based on hardware issues and was seen as more than adequate for the task.
There is no FUD to it. Every HD-DVD drive will require a tilt margin servo to compensate for the low tolerance (.3 deg.) of HD-DVD. There is no getting around that fact and the results have been poor and the prospects for improvements are slim without significant changes to the drives that will force costs even higher to build HD-DVD drives.... Optical physics can't change, they can only be worked around to minimize the damage to useability.

The first rule of consumer products is to keep the problems in the factory, not force them into the consumers hands where little can be done to correct problems with a faulty design.

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post #2739 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by b2bonez
The ...... thing that has been proven is that VC-1 can use pristine masters and have VG results.
Thanks b2b. I knew we could agree :D .

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post #2740 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Enigma
Thanks b2b. I knew we could agree :D .
That's another thing, why does the quality of what the studios produce somehow get co-mingled with the HW capabilities of either format? Does UPS or Fedex have control of what gets shipped in one of their boxes ??

Don't both formats support the exact same video codecs as the other ?? Will VC-1 look different on a BD disc or is it that MS cherry picked pristine masters to use with VC-1 & HD-DVD just to form some bogus linkage that only HD-DVD will deliver something that is beyond BDs HW limitations ?

Fact is that the "cherries" that MS has chosen for HD-DVD can been presented on a hard drive, BD disc or any other form of storage medium and the results would be identical.

In fact the BD presentation might be even better because the bandwidth of BD is vastly superior to HD-DVD allowing the VC-1 encodings not to be restricted to the puny 30mbps that HD-DVD offers.

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post #2741 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 11:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez
That's another thing, why does the quality of what the studios produce somehow get co-mingled with the HW capabilities of either format? Does UPS or Fedex have control of what gets shipped in one of their boxes ??

Don't both formats support the exact same video codecs as the other ?? Will VC-1 look different on a BD disc or is it that MS cherry picked pristine masters to use with VC-1 & HD-DVD just to form some bogus linkage that only HD-DVD will deliver something that is beyond BDs HW limitations ?

Fact is that the "cherries" that MS has chosen for HD-DVD can been presented on a hard drive, BD disc or any other form of storage medium and the results would be identical.

In fact the BD presentation might be even better because the bandwidth of BD is vastly superior to HD-DVD allowing the VC-1 encodings not to be restricted to the puny 30mbps that HD-DVD offers.

b2b
exactly
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post #2742 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 11:51 AM
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Just wait for it
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post #2743 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
but what would that prove?

+ 20mbps for video (less then some movies today),
+ 5 mbps for IME (I am using your number)
+ 6.6 mbps for DTHD 7.1 24/48 (DD's example of a movie http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf//tec...0925_Final.pdf)
= 31.6 no menus, no other audio and already above 30
+ 1.9 mbps for 3xDD+640*3 rounded down
= 33.5
+ 1.5 for the rest (menus, subtitles....) -made up number, but could be anything, just wanted a round number
= 35
Well at least you provided an example, despite that it wouldn't "prove" anything. My comments on your example are that video peak will be 18 with newer encodes of VC-1; DTHD will be 5.1 for the forseeable future, and your number is too high IMO, anyway (your are using the max case); probably more likely is 5.1 20/48 at about 5 mbps or less (see this post ). Menus don't take up bandwidth unless they are running during the feature, which is part of IME.

So we have 18+5+5+.64+.64 (for your two DD+ tracks) = 29.2. There are already a number of discs like this, either out already or announced (Constantine, HP 4, Troy, etc). I think, but don't know for sure, that they are using 16/48 audio, but that's the only difference to this scenario.

This has already been addressed a number of times; no sense re-hashing it. If you add a second lossless track, then you will likely have trouble. Other than that, I'm confident a disc like this will have great pq and sq, based on the results by HD DVD so far. Here is an earlier post of mine with similar bandwidth guesses (that's what we are both doing, guessing, since we don't know what's actually being used on discs, other than peak audio+video rates taken from a computer).

Hal
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post #2744 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez
That's another thing, why does the quality of what the studios produce somehow get co-mingled with the HW capabilities of either format? Does UPS or Fedex have control of what gets shipped in one of their boxes ??

Don't both formats support the exact same video codecs as the other ?? Will VC-1 look different on a BD disc or is it that MS cherry picked pristine masters to use with VC-1 & HD-DVD just to form some bogus linkage that only HD-DVD will deliver something that is beyond BDs HW limitations ?

Fact is that the "cherries" that MS has chosen for HD-DVD can been presented on a hard drive, BD disc or any other form of storage medium and the results would be identical.

In fact the BD presentation might be even better because the bandwidth of BD is vastly superior to HD-DVD allowing the VC-1 encodings not to be restricted to the puny 30mbps that HD-DVD offers.

b2b
Do you actually believe what you are writing?

The reason the studio release execution is discussed with the format's pure hardware capabilities is that it is relevant to the performance of the format. That's especially more important when there is a primary driving force, Sony, that is releasing titles that are below the formats capabilities. It also relevant when studios are releases titles in the other format with some lesser theoretical specs that has superior picture quality.

If they are "cherry picking" then that means at least they cared enough to do it right. Compare that to the releases for SPHE. The fact is that to this date, HD DVD has released superior titles than Blu-ray. If that changes, you may have a valid point of discussion. Until that day, you are just making noise.

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post #2745 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
as for dynamux
the issue is it is limited in what it can do peak in one language will coincide with the others so all 3 DD+ and DTHD will peak at the same time.
That's not the point of dynamux; FWIU it's about using some video bandwidth for audio, and vice versa. I think there are many cases where it could be useful. But since it doens't exist yet I'm not going to waste time arguing about an un-released feature. That'd be like arguing about DL BD's, or BJ-J on disc, or; well, nevermind :p .
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Do you think the content of a movie on HD DVD 15 (to keep it simple) can’t be put exactly as is (VC1 of the same level, same audio) on a BD25? If it is put on a BD25 do you think it won’t look the same?
Of course I know that it can. Let's just see it done before we start singing it's praises, OK?
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I do point the positives even in the “stupid†conversation I said there are good reasons for someone buying HD DVD such as it was out earlier. …
That's not really a reason at this point, is it? Let's say I'm going to buy one of the two formats next April. From your posts here I would gather that you think there would be no reason to get HD DVD, and I did I would be making a stupid decision, correct? Just trying to understand your position wrt HD DVD consumers.
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but do you think being neutral or not trying to convince means that when someone says no one needs 50GB that I should say yes it is needed for TV shows because then they can put it on less disks or LOTR won’t need to be a 2 disk set that I should always add something useless that has nothing to do with the conversation like “but TFE on BD looks worst the POO on HD DVD.â€
Not sure the point here. If a TV show can be put on 3 vs. 5 discs (or 2 vs. 4, or whatever) what real advantage is that? For that to even be done the costs of DL would have to come way down to where it was cheaper than 2 SL. I'm sure it will happen one day, but is this a good reason to champion DL? Personally, I don't think so. You make a better argument with LOTR EE, as despite the length of the movie I would also rather have one disc for a main feature. That's why I'd like to see TL added to HD DVD spec, for such a special case as this. We already have Troy annouced on HD DVD with TrueHD and IME, and it is 2 hr and 47 min long (see here ; so I think for 98% of all movies 30 gig is enough.
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you need to go back to that thread.
Quote:
that is what I am hoping for, that by the end of 2006 (assuming it starts beginning 2006) that there will be arrows pointing in one direction. I don't think it needs to end by Jan 2007

for example:
- Jan 2006: HD-DVD comes out (player and movies )
- Mar 2006: BR comes out (player and movies )
- Oct 2006: PS3 comes out
- Nov 2006: Paramount/ Universal decide to make BD
- Dec 2006: you can buy moves in BD from all studios - TW, you can buy movies in HD-DVD from Paramoun, Uneversal and TW what kind of players do you think people will buy as a present? the one supported by most studios or the one supported by 1/2
- May 2007 U/P stop producing HD-DVDs not enough market
- Jun 2007 TW gives up and starts producing BDs
- Sep 2007 TW stops HD-DVD production

In the example above I would consider it won in Nov 2006, because that is when BR has much more studio support then HD-DVD and when coonsumers go to the store will see many more BDs, on the other hand if in Nov Disney decides to do HD-DVDs, I would say not won yet.
OK I did. Still stay your premise is for a quick BD victory, with the final battle being lost by HD DVD in Sept 07. In order to follow your definition of a victory, then by Dec 06 Uni will have to annouce they are going dual, agree? I still think that's unlikely. But I don't share your definition. Much like with SACD & DVD-A you won't know that an actual "victory" has been attained (as opposed to a stalemate of co-existance) until no one publishes in HD DVD anymore.

Hal
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post #2746 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty
Do you actually believe what you are writing?

The reason the studio release execution is discussed with the format's pure hardware capabilities is that it is relevant to the performance of the format. That's especially more important when there is a primary driving force, Sony, that is releasing titles that are below the formats capabilities. It also relevant when studios are releases titles in the other format with some lesser theoretical specs that has superior picture quality.

If they are "cherry picking" then that means at least they cared enough to do it right. Compare that to the releases for SPHE. The fact is that to this date, HD DVD has released superior titles than Blu-ray. If that changes, you may have a valid point of discussion. Until that day, you are just making noise.
Do you actually believe that that HD-DVD as a format has some clause that mandates that only pristine masters and exacting QC be maintained when encoding them ?? ... Give me a break, MS declined to have U2: Rattle and Hum be encoded with VC-1 for fear that it would make VC-1 "look bad". :rolleyes:

Duh ?? How many bad encoding have you seen with DVD ? How many good encoding have you seen with DVD ? Exact same format, different quality depending on how the encoding was done and what effort was put into the encoding process. That's the same with HD-DVD vs. BD except that HD-DVD is slower and smaller than BD with regards to bandwidth and storage capacity.

b2b


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post #2747 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 12:53 PM
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So, MS gets to tell studios which titles to release, and when to release them, and on what codec they will be released on? I did not know that.
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post #2748 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez
Do you actually believe that that HD-DVD as a format has some clause that mandates that only pristine masters and exacting QC be maintained when encoding them ?? ...
b2b
I don't want to get too into this, but I suspect if Sony released on HD DVD tomorrow the transfers would still look like ass because they'd still have no incentive to use VC-1.

Of course, you could argue they're dragging WB, Paramount, and Lion's Gate down to their MPEG2 level and that wouldn't happen with HD DVD, but I suspect those MPEG2 issues with non-Sony studios will last just as long as it takes for authoring software to accept AVC or VC-1... which should be pretty soon.

I'm very pleased with what HD DVD has offered so far, and I think it bodes well for HD formats in general, but really the only thing Sony's lackluster releases mean post-2006 is that Sony sucks. I don't think we'll see non-Sony MPEG2 past the end of this year, but I will concede that is just a guess on my part. Frankly, now that MGM is distributed by Fox, there are maybe ten titles max I want from Sony anyway, and I can wait until they wake the fsck up. I still never bought Universal's crappy Secret of My Success DVD, though it pains me to still own a VHS tape...

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post #2749 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez
That's the same with HD-DVD vs. BD except that HD-DVD is slower and smaller than BD with regards to bandwidth and storage capacity.

b2b
Of course, HD DVD is larger than BD in regards to storage capacity. And BD didn't make advanced lossless audio compression mandatory, so they are waisting space with PCM.
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post #2750 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez
except that HD-DVD is slower and smaller than BD with regards to bandwidth and storage capacity.

b2b
Not if the majority release is on SL-25GB.

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post #2751 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan
So, MS gets to tell studios which titles to release, and when to release them, and on what codec they will be released on? I did not know that.
No, but when MS offers tens of thousands of dollars of encoding and QC support to the studios for free, do you think the studios are stupid enough to not take advantage of it ??

I someone offered you a deal that if you bought their paint they would come to your house and paint it for free wouldn't you accept it ??

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post #2752 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 01:22 PM
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Exact same format, different quality depending on how the encoding was done and what effort was put into the encoding process.
The problem is I am projecting out based on on demonstrated past superior performance which has to be maintained , you are projecting out based on your imagination and wishful thinking of future improvement.

Oh course, some future HD DVD releases of catalog titles and secondary content holders will not look as good as the initial releases. But with VC-1 and DL30GB as an established economically available benchmark performance standard, there is no reason that most prominent HD DVD releases will drop in quality.

You're assuming the Blu-ray folks convert to VC-1 or that AVC is equal to or superior to VC-1. And DL-50 disks will be available and used. Those are significant assumptions.

If the quality is the same between HD DVD and Blu-ray, whats the difference? Price?

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post #2753 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez
I someone offered you a deal that if you bought their paint they would come to your house and paint it for free wouldn't you accept it ??

b2b
Not if the paint is blu and you can only use a single coat of paint :D
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post #2754 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 01:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvn64
Not if the paint is blu and you can only use a single coat of paint :D
better to have that single coat than not to and have problems of scratched discs :eek:
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post #2755 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 03:31 PM
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Tons of new PLAYSTATION 3 hardware photos:

http://www.gfdata.de/archiv08-2006-gamefront/2083.html

It now seems that not only is Dolby True HD supported by PS3, but DTS-HD Master Audio too:

Here are the new logos:

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7...dware20nl1.jpg


Here is the Dolby True HD logo:

http://www.markspages.nl/images/hifi...ruehd-logo.gif

And here is the DTS-HD Master Audio insignia:

http://www.digitalvideoht.it/images/...rchi/dtshd.jpg


From left to right the logo are:

Blu Ray Disk
DVD-ROM
Super Audio CD
Compact Disk
Dolby TrueHD
Dolby Digital
DTS-HD Master Audio
Blutooth
HDMI
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post #2756 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 03:40 PM
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Hmm. The red "PS" symbol is upright now matter whether the player is laying down or standing up.


Good find.
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post #2757 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 03:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee
Tons of new PLAYSTATION 3 hardware photos:

http://www.gfdata.de/archiv08-2006-gamefront/2083.html

It now seems that not only is Dolby True HD supported by PS3, but DTS-HD Master Audio too:

Here are the new logos:

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7...dware20nl1.jpg


Here is the Dolby True HD logo:

http://www.markspages.nl/images/hifi...ruehd-logo.gif

And here is the DTS-HD Master Audio insignia:

http://www.digitalvideoht.it/images/...rchi/dtshd.jpg


From left to right the logo are:

Blu Ray Disk
DVD-ROM
Super Audio CD
Compact Disk
Dolby TrueHD
Dolby Digital
DTS-HD Master Audio
Blutooth
HDMI
great, this should be put in the PS3 thread as well.

edit: Put quoted you at gaming forum
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post #2758 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee
Tons of new PLAYSTATION 3 hardware photos:

It now seems that not only is Dolby True HD supported by PS3, but DTS-HD Master Audio too:
I'm guessing that this means that it has to be able to decode those and not just that it can send them over the HDMI 1.3 to a new reciever. Hopefully somebody can confirm one way or the other.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #2759 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 05:24 PM
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I'm thinking it's likely the latter. Some disclaimer like: additional equipment (1.3 receiver) required.
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post #2760 of 4534 Old 08-23-2006, 05:29 PM
 
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Curious do the current Toshiba and Samsung have disclaimers for 1080i/P output that a 1080i/p Display is required to receive full resolution capabilities?
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