Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please - Page 13 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #361 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 05:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV Doogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Rockford, IL
Posts: 2,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I don't think either Microsoft or Intel are CE companies though Hitachi is one. And recently Hitachi did announce they would release a 2 to 3 thousand dollar HD DVD recorder next year.

That is also true for HD DVD players that are not connected to the internet.

If MSFT is not a CE company, then what do you call the XBox unit, and many other MSFT branded Internet devices. By the way, the Hitachi unit is supposed to be released in Japan. Lite-On is supposed to release a sub $1k HD DVD player later this year

At least the HD DVD players all have internet connections!

My Home Theater Site:

DJ-Theater
AV Doogie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #362 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 05:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 17,770
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 495 Post(s)
Liked: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Just to clarify but does this mean you think that 30 GB is enough for secondary video while 25 GB is not?
Using VC-1 and SD quality extras (i.e. what is used in IME), we get about 1 hour per gigabyte. So 5 gigabyte translates into five hours of SD quality video. This would cover even the longest title as far as secondary video is concerned.

So yes, there is a big difference between 25 and 30 when it comes to level of extras that can be stuffed in there. And if the studios do try to have common encodes for both formats, one can imagine the BD-25 and HD-DVD-30 would share the same data for the movie itself, filling the 25 gig and the balance of HD DVD capacity used for extras.

Is 30 "enough"? I don't know what "enough" is :). But I can say per above, it is plenty. Anything above and beyond and be pushed onto a hard disk and kept fresh that way.

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
post #363 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 05:37 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 17,770
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 495 Post(s)
Liked: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
That is also true for HD DVD players that are not connected to the internet.
That is a customer choice. And as such, they can't go and try to return the disc on that basis. Very different situation than buying a BD title, seeing a ton of verbage around cool extra content and realize, they have to buy another $1000 player to experience it :).

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
post #364 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 05:46 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 17,770
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 495 Post(s)
Liked: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Careful Amir you are getting very close to propaganda in this post.
My apologies. The data I conveyed though, came fresh from talking to HD DVD studios last week. So outside of the tone, I hope the message itself is not ignored.

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
post #365 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 05:51 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 45,876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
I could certainly imagine....
Richard (and for that matter, everyone), please confine your comments in this topic to questions, not the quotes/commentaries you use in other topics.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

Ken H is offline  
post #366 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 06:12 PM
 
plazman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
I
Just to clarify but does this mean you think that 30 GB is enough for secondary video while 25 GB is not?


That is also true for HD DVD players that are not connected to the internet.
I believe the actual usage capacity for BD is 20GB and not 30 GB. Therefore, HD DVD has both a more efficient codec (VC-1) plus an extra 10GB of space.

All HD DVD players have internet connectivity.
plazman is offline  
post #367 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 06:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
skogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Koror, Palau
Posts: 4,415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Question for Keith, Tom, or any other insider "in the know."

Generally speaking, what is the cost difference in building a Blu-ray player and a HD DVD player? I know you can't comment upon specific models, so just imagine a garden variety, bare-bones model of each format. I know they have different OPU's, and maybe there are a few other differences. When you consider the parts that are different, how would that impact the price?

Thanks in advance to anyone who wants to tackle that question.


Edit: For anyone else who might have some insight: Is it now known what the royalties of iHD and BD-J are? If so, which turned out to be higher?
skogan is offline  
post #368 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 06:18 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
amirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 17,770
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 495 Post(s)
Liked: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
I believe the actual usage capacity for BD is 20GB and not 30 GB. Therefore, HD DVD has both a more efficient codec (VC-1) plus an extra 10GB of space.
I finally got our Vaio PC and BD drive and checked the sizes on a few discs. UV is the only title that is short at 21 gigabytes. The other 4 that I checked are in the 24 gigabyte range.

It is a mystery as to why UV is so much smaller. I thought it was because they were not sure of the yields so they encoded it at less than capacity. But then I looked at the date on disc and it has a later date than some of the other titles. I guess it is possible the date stamps on disc are not representative of when they made the decision on maximum capacity...

Amir
Founder, Madrona Digital
"Insist on Quality Engineering"

amirm is online now  
post #369 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 06:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Richard Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,955
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Doogie
Lite-On is supposed to release a sub $1k HD DVD player later this year
I know, though they also announced they would support Blu-ray as well so I in terms of chinch's question they would be considered neutral.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Using VC-1 and SD quality extras (i.e. what is used in IME), we get about 1 hour per gigabyte. So 5 gigabyte translates into five hours of SD quality video. This would cover even the longest title as far as secondary video is concerned.
What happens though when they start to make HD extras?


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Anything above and beyond and be pushed onto a hard disk and kept fresh that way.
Sure, but how many people have home media networks at the moment?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H
Richard (and for that matter, everyone), please confine your comments in this topic to questions, not the quotes/commentaries you use in other topics.
I will try, but I think that if we can't debate anything that is said by the insiders that the thread could easily become a one sided propaganda campaign.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
I finally got our Vaio PC and BD drive and checked the sizes on a few discs. UV is the only title that is short at 21 gigabytes. The other 4 that I checked are in the 24 gigabyte range.
Would you mind checking all the Blu-ray discs you have to see how it averages out?
Richard Paul is offline  
post #370 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 07:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ADGrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,537
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
It is a mystery as to why UV is so much smaller. I thought it was because they were not sure of the yields so they encoded it at less than capacity. But then I looked at the date on disc and it has a later date than some of the other titles. I guess it is possible the date stamps on disc are not representative of when they made the decision on maximum capacity...
Perhaps the blurry effects reduced the space required.
ADGrant is offline  
post #371 of 4623 Old 07-16-2006, 08:17 PM
Senior Member
 
CaptDS9E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
For those who have been following Amir's answers. He is on the new podcast at www.majornelson.com talking about HD-DVD, Blu Ray, codecs etc..
CaptDS9E is offline  
post #372 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 12:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Talkstr8t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Los Altos, CA, USA
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm sure there would be some disappointment if I were to remain completely silent in the face of Amir's characterization of how "iHD came to be"! In keeping with the higher signal to noise ratio this thread aims for, I'll refrain from addressing every area where I differ with Amir's portrayal of iHD history and instead keep my response to the more significant issues:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
...

Meanwhile, Disney also proposed the idea to BDA because at the time, they had not take sides. The BDA quickly penciled in Java but in private discussions, the CE companies were pleading with us to talk Disney out of requiring this as a mandatory feature. They worried about the complexity of implementing Java and networking.
Java had, in fact, been part of the BD spec since early in the spec's existence (having been originally championed by HP), well before Disney had a role in BD matters and, to my knowledge, well before the technology which became iHD was ever considered for next-generation DVD.

In addition, Disney was split internally. One group strongly championed Java, both for Blu-ray and for HD-DVD. The other group, which eventually prevailed, favored a stronger relationship with Microsoft, and hence lobbied for iHD in both formats.
Quote:
We faced competition from Macromedia Flash and Java at DVD Forum. All three of us made parallel proposals. WayVD received overwhelming support. Even companies such as Apple who usually oppose us in such standards supported us together with many BD companies such as Samsung. Indeed, Java only received two votes if my memory is correct. And one was from Sun itself (represented by Bill Sheppard who posts here under an alias), the other from a small company.
First of all, Amir is speculating as to whether I am "Bill Sheppard". While it has been established that my name is Bill, I have not confirmed my full name nor employer. Further, there are at least two "Bill's" I'm aware of at Sun who have been active in both HD-DVD and BDA camps. I have asked Amir to respect the rules of this forum and, at a minimum, identify his claim as to my identity as opinion, not fact. The more diplomatic action would be for him to stop publicly attempting to assign an identity to my posts beyond that which I choose to share.

Secondly, there were a variety of motivations for why most companies in the DVD Forum voted for Microsoft's proposal, not simply the belief it was more suitable technology. One motivation which was shared with me by numerous participants was an unwillingness to vote counter to the wishes of Toshiba's very strong senior participant, especially among the many companies who were/are strong Blu-ray supporters and unlikely to release HD-DVD technology. Should he choose to, I'm sure Tom McMahon will confirm this cultural tendency within the DVD Forum. For the sake of correctness, I'll note that Fox also voted in favor of Java.

Quote:
The [BDA] working group was impressed with the qualities of iHD and simplicity that it brought, and gave a majority vote to iHD. But then we ran into a technicality.

BDA rules require super majority if a specification is to be overturned. One could have argued that Java was not really in so there was nothing to overturn.
There was, and had been, a formal working group (MST2-8) developing the BD-J spec for well over a year. I'm not sure how that qualfies as "not really in".

Quote:
Despite severe pressure on us to join BDA, we had refused to do so. We wanted to stay neutral
It seems to me that joining both groups would be the neutral stance, while only participating in the DVD Forum would, in fact, be a quite biased position.

Quote:
The work of the working group was overridden and iHD lost in BD. Java was resurrected and put on a fast path for standardization.
Java was never dead, so it couldn't really be resurrected. The working group's initial analysis was done without input from Sun. Upon a more extensive study with input from both camps, Java was overwhelmingly endorsed to remain the interactive platform for BD. Amir also fails to note that Java had been selected as the standard platform for digital television applications in the worldwide broadcast (MHP) and cable (OCAP) industries, and as such was a very logical platform upon which to build Blu-ray, since both the software suppliers (the studios) and the hardware suppliers (the device manufacturers) largely provide product for both markets, yielding substantial synergies for both the devices and for content developers.

Quote:
The ease of programming iHD has paid off. All US titles use iHD and HD DVD post houses and studios are super pleased with the technology and our support of it. The usage of iHD is accelerating and more sophisticated applications are coming to market, as is evidenced by IME (In Movie Experience) in newer titles such as BS. In an ironic twist, Disney and other BD studios are behind HD DVD in interactivity with current BD titles all using the simple “BD Movie mode†which is enhanced version of the old DVD menus. As a result, they lack simple things like progress bar, scrolling chapter lists, persistent storage, networking and PiP support.
Amir's characterization of "BD Movie mode" (more correctly known as "HDMV") is oversimplified. Microsoft chose to apply the "iHD" label to both the HD-DVD standard and advanced content modes. The BDA labels their standard mode as "HDMV" and the advanced mode as "BD-J". This semantic allows Amir to correctly note that all current US HD-DVD titles make use of iHD. However, only two titles (to my knowledge), "Constantine" and "Bourne Supremacy", make use of iHD advanced content (in order to provide PiP). My understanding is that all of the features found in all other HD-DVD titles can be offered using BD's HDMV mode. HDMV is in fact far more capable than the old DVD menus. Amir is correct that HDMV does not provide network nor PiP access. It does, however, support scrolling menus, progress bars and some persistent storage access.

My intent is that this post provides an accurate counterpoint to Amir's characterization of the process and politics by which the industry ended up with independent content platforms. I hope most of you will agree that has been the result.

- Talk

Blu-ray Insider
Speaking solely for myself, not the BDA
Talkstr8t is offline  
post #373 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 12:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Talkstr8t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Los Altos, CA, USA
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
Along with ATSC and DVB. ISDB uses its own thing that I believe is more similar to iHD.
ISDB (the Japanese standard) V1.0 uses Broadcast Markup Language, or BML. V2.0 is Java-based, though it's unclear when the market will migrate to the new version.

Blu-ray Insider
Speaking solely for myself, not the BDA
Talkstr8t is offline  
post #374 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 12:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Talkstr8t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Los Altos, CA, USA
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Today, it is impossible to port them over. BD insiders should correct me but the following are the problems I see:

...

My understanding is, and I welcome Bill/Keith to correct, that BD-J is not functional in current generation players and that the studios have been told not to use it. Hence the reason every title is using BDMV menu system instead. As you can imagine, there is no way to implement IME without BD-J.
This is incorrect. Every current Blu-ray player (including PC-based) has full BD-J support. The primary reasons there is no BD-J content on current titles are a) toolchains providing BD-J authoring support were only available relatively close to the launch of BD, not providing enough lead time for the studios to fully utilize them, and b) with players coming from multiple manufacturers, the studios wanted to do more extensive cross-platform testing to ensure there were no compatibility issues.

With regards to point a), we see a similar situation with HD-DVD. None of the original HD-DVD release titles made use of advanced content features (i.e. PiP); these showed up a month or more after format release. With regards to point b), since players are only available from one vendor (Toshiba), compatibility testing is far easier!

Quote:
No networking support. Some of the studios would have refused to use the interactivity subsystem if networking support was not mandatory from day 1. Again, this is something that is planned for future versions of BD player (another profile), but not all machines.
I believe this is a red herring. Firstly, even though all HD-DVD players are required to support a network connection, there is no guarantee a given consumer will actually connect the player to a broadband network. From the studio's standpoint there is little difference between a player without network support and a player with network support but not connected.

Secondly, the number of Blu-ray machines available in the market without network support will quickly become a trivial percentage of the overall market, given that the PS3 and most (if not all) players released after it will have full BD-Live support, with sales of these players quickly dwarfing sales of the 1G players. Buyers of first generation machines are generally very well-educated on the technology and understand that being an early adopter may also mean some features aren't available to those early machines. This same scenario played out with the release of DVD.

- Talk

Blu-ray Insider
Speaking solely for myself, not the BDA
Talkstr8t is offline  
post #375 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 12:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Talkstr8t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Los Altos, CA, USA
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1
Nowadays, you can't even use the word "interactive" without people referencing it to the Internet. Having more players coming out this year without an ethernet port tells me that BD-J software (atleast the networking api) is no where close to ready or expected anytime soon.
I would strongly disagree with this characterization. There are many compelling features which can be delivered without network connectivity. I strongly doubt you'll find HD-DVD titles making use of network connectivity before next year in spite of the fact that all HD-DVD players are required to support broadband.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plazman
I believe the actual usage capacity for BD is 20GB and not 30 GB. Therefore, HD DVD has both a more efficient codec (VC-1) plus an extra 10GB of space.
The difference in actual capacity between a single-layer Blu-ray disc and a double-layer HD-DVD disc is 5GB, not 10. Also, both formats support VC-1 (as well as AVC and MPEG-2). There is no difference whatsoever between the two formats in terms of codec efficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skogan
For anyone else who might have some insight: Is it now known what the royalties of iHD and BD-J are? If so, which turned out to be higher?
BD-J royalties have been publicly disclosed as "generally under $1". Amir had previously posted on AVS Forum that iHD would be offered without royalties, but a more recent question asking him to confirm that it was being offered free to the companies building Windows-based HD-DVD players wasn't answered.

Patent royalties haven't been determined for BD-J or iHD.

- Talk

Blu-ray Insider
Speaking solely for myself, not the BDA
Talkstr8t is offline  
post #376 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 12:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
ckong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 529
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t

My intent is that this post provides an accurate counterpoint to Amir's characterization of the process and politics by which the industry ended up with independent content platforms. I hope most of you will agree that has been the result.

- Talk
So the prophecy is true, you are the one who will bring balance to the Force. Great post. :)
ckong is offline  
post #377 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 01:02 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Kosty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North East USA
Posts: 14,683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I for one appreciate both the Amirim posts and the viewpoint provided by Talkstr8t and others.
Keep up the good work gentlemen. Its appreciated by many of us. Thanks for the time.

Direct question:

I believe HD DVD has some possible advantages in interactivity. One is the mandatory internet connection next is the inclusion of mandatory dual video stream support and third is mandatory memory for persistent boolmarks and downloaded content and updates.

I believe that Blu-Ray has some advantages in the richness of Java for programming and the fact that the cable industry interactive standard is the same. Plus the higher capacity of DL50 BR disks may be an advantage.

I have heard but not seen about the interactive features in the HD DVD release of Constantine. Can Blu-Ray match the level of interactive video picture in picture and in what ways can the BD-J do something that iHD cannot (and the other way around) and does the DL50 BR disk allow more richness over the DL30 HD DVD?

.
"A lot of good arguments are spoiled by some fool who knows what he is talking about." - Miguel de Unamuno


follow me on Twitter
Kosty is offline  
post #378 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 01:34 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
rdjam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 9,736
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
That is also true for HD DVD players that are not connected to the internet.
No it's not - AFAIK, profile 1 in BD lacks more than just the networking?

Future BD releases that use BDJ may be incompatible in all sorts of ways with Profile 1 BD players, which will discourage the publishers from really using it.

HD DVD players are fully compatible with iHD, so any iHD usage will always be compatible with the very first players. This includes, but is not limited to, networking...

Bill or Amir?
rdjam is offline  
post #379 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 01:36 AM
Senior Member
 
lamestlamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Will PC players allow for advanced scaling and post processing like that of VMR-9, or does this introduce too much of a security risk? If the latter, then how will scaling and potentially interlacing be handled?


Is it confirmed that only OEM machines will be capable of HD-DVD/BR playback, and if so, how are such systems configured differently from retail builds?


Given the state of modern DVDs with sometimes upwards of 5 minutes of mandatory advertising before accessibility to the main menu, do iHD or BD-J allow content providers to lock the player down and display advertising? If so, could studios abuse the more advanced features to insert advertisements into the features themselves (for instance use the PiP technology to display pop ups)?


Of the pricing for both formats, can either side give a breakdown of the actual disk prices as far as royalties, manufaccturing costs, etc?


Will PCs be forced to use HDMI, or will the analog pathway be accessible, like all stand alone players are?


Will the xbox hd-dvd add on allow for higher resolutions(1080p72) to be displayed over the VGA?


Have any studios made a legal obligation to prohibit use of the content flag until certain dates, and if so, what dates?


Thanks, for all those participating in this discussion.

Michael
lamestlamer is offline  
post #380 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 01:57 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
rdjam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 9,736
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
Amir's characterization of "BD Movie mode" (more correctly known as "HDMV") is oversimplified. Microsoft chose to apply the "iHD" label to both the HD-DVD standard and advanced content modes. The BDA labels their standard mode as "HDMV" and the advanced mode as "BD-J". This semantic allows Amir to correctly note that all current US HD-DVD titles make use of iHD. However, only two titles (to my knowledge), "Constantine" and "Bourne Supremacy", make use of iHD advanced content (in order to provide PiP). My understanding is that all of the features found in all other HD-DVD titles can be offered using BD's HDMV mode. HDMV is in fact far more capable than the old DVD menus. Amir is correct that HDMV does not provide network nor PiP access. It does, however, support scrolling menus, progress bars and some persistent storage access.
Hi Bill and Amir - Could you clarify something for me?

Bill - my understanding of what has been said to date is that the actual initial BD players are not fully BD-J compatible, but that they are "profile 1". Later BD players will have the full BD-J capabilities, no? So if future BD titles include more advanced BD-J content, these initial BD players will not be fully compatible, no?

Amir - My understanding is the the initial HD DVD players are fully compatible with iHD, which means that reagrdless of how many HD DVD titles today use it, any future HD DVD titles will be fully compatible with even the first HD DVD players. Yes?

So regardless of whether HDMV can do the basic iHD stuff or not (which I think is a red herring) the fact, as I understand it, is that all HD DVD players arefully compatible with all iHD usage on current and future HD DVD titles, whereas these early BD players do not include the entire BD-J set and will be incompatible with some BD-J usage on future BD titles. Yes?
rdjam is offline  
post #381 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 02:02 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
rdjam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 9,736
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
No titles made use of advanced content features (i.e. PiP) until several months after the initial format release.
Hi Bill - HD DVD has only been out 2 months or so - how can you accurately depict the iHD titles (which have now already been released) as coming out "several months after the initial format release".

Innacuracies like this concern me...
rdjam is offline  
post #382 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 03:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RobertR1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
Secondly, the number of Blu-ray machines available in the market without network support will quickly become a trivial percentage of the overall market, given that the PS3 and most (if not all) players released after it will have full BD-Live support, with sales of these players quickly dwarfing sales of the 1G players. Buyers of first generation machines are generally very well-educated on the technology and understand that being an early adopter may also mean some features aren't available to those early machines. This same scenario played out with the release of DVD.
- Talk
Hopefully potential buyers will look at this and realize that 1st gen players without ethernet ports are obselete to those coming out later that will allow network support and online interactivity. For companies pushing next gen, missing an Internet connection seems a few step backwards. While the A1 ethernet port is not used for online interactivity, when it does arrive, people won't need to swap players. Especially when they cost $1000-$1500. If the early scenario (DVD) did that to consumers, didn't someone stand up and say "hey, let's learn from DVD and deliver the goods properly from the beginning?" This utter disregard for the consumer arrogant attitude of "we got away with it on DVD, so why not now?" is quite alarming to me as a consumer and hopefully is not shared by the rest of the group, although I see that the Panny does not have an ethernet port also.

Also, you stated that "There was, and had been, a formal working group (MST2-8) developing the BD-J spec for well over a year." So how long does it take to make a working version? Hardware compatiability is CE responsiblity once the software platform is established. Sure, the SW vendor can work closely with the CE's to ensure correct implementation but the Samsung being already released, should have all aspects of BD-J implemented and you'd think atleast one Sony title would show off these features. Is this something that is now on the "worked with DVD so why not now" path also?
RobertR1 is offline  
post #383 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 03:35 AM
Senior Member
 
Ian_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: (Old) Hampshire, UK
Posts: 232
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam
Hi Bill and Amir - Could you clarify something for me?

Bill - my understanding of what has been said to date is that the actual initial BD players are not fully BD-J compatible, but that they are "profile 1". Later BD players will have the full BD-J capabilities, no? So if future BD titles include more advanced BD-J content, these initial BD players will not be fully compatible, no?

Amir - My understanding is the the initial HD DVD players are fully compatible with iHD, which means that reagrdless of how many HD DVD titles today use it, any future HD DVD titles will be fully compatible with even the first HD DVD players. Yes?

So regardless of whether HDMV can do the basic iHD stuff or not (which I think is a red herring) the fact, as I understand it, is that all HD DVD players arefully compatible with all iHD usage on current and future HD DVD titles, whereas these early BD players do not include the entire BD-J set and will be incompatible with some BD-J usage on future BD titles. Yes?
I think post 366 was Bill's answer?
Ian_S is offline  
post #384 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 04:58 AM
Advanced Member
 
Eternal_Sunshine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_S
I think post 366 was Bill's answer?
Indeed it was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
Every current Blu-ray player (including PC-based) has full BD-J support.
Eternal_Sunshine is offline  
post #385 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 05:41 AM
Member
 
windsok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Question to insiders:

How long until we will see 5.25" HD-DVD reading drives (not burners) for PC's in the retail/OEM market, available to purchase by the average joe, and what ballpark price will they be?

Cheers!
windsok is offline  
post #386 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 06:20 AM
Member
 
windsok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptDS9E
For those who have been following Amir's answers. He is on the new podcast at www.majornelson.com talking about HD-DVD, Blu Ray, codecs etc..
Just saw this article, "Blu-ray versus HD DVD, where hype meets FUD" which seems to be based on Amir's comments in the podcast, although it does not say exactly who or where the comments come from.

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/4987/106/
windsok is offline  
post #387 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 06:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Adam Tyner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 1,750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by windsok
Just saw this article, "Blu-ray versus HD DVD, where hype meets FUD" which seems to be based on Amir's comments in the podcast
It's based on Josh Z's review of the Samsung player. For some reason, the author believes that Josh works for Microsoft.
Adam Tyner is offline  
post #388 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 07:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chinch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,038
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Regarding interactive/extra content...

Amir - you mentioned hard drive pushed onto a hard disk... how would a Toshiba HD-A1 user for example download "extras" to a hard disc? Is there any provisions for downloading thru HD-DVD players to a PC or NAS drive? Can you please explain this further?


Bluray insiders:
Quote:
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA...M-BLURAY-DC.XML
Still being developed: more groundbreaking interactive features; personalized chapter selections; and compelling online content, including Web connectivity that will allow users to connect to live events hosted by the studio.
Can any someone explain the reason for NOT mandating an online hookup for BR players (such as the Samsung) given Disney's previous statements about Tea Party with Jasmine? Why is there such a disconnect between what the studios say they want vs what is reality (you can't go online if your player doesn't allow it). I must say it is very perplexing, especially this early in the game.

DVD's are about movies & people watch them in living rooms, how many people actually use their computer drives to sit and watch movies- Bluray's Andy Parsons
chinch is offline  
post #389 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 07:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lymzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: lalaland
Posts: 3,073
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
Patent royalties haven't been determined for BD-J or iHD.

- Talk
Does BD-J offer CAP for windows if MS decide to support it natively?

HDPLEX
lymzy is offline  
post #390 of 4623 Old 07-17-2006, 07:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ADGrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,537
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1
While the A1 ethernet port is not used for online interactivity, when it does arrive, people won't need to swap players. Especially when they cost $1000-$1500. If the early scenario (DVD) did that to consumers, didn't someone stand up and say "hey, let's learn from DVD and deliver the goods properly from the beginning?" This utter disregard for the consumer arrogant attitude of "we got away with it on DVD, so why not now?" is quite alarming to me as a consumer and hopefully is not shared by the rest of the group, although I see that the Panny does not have an ethernet port also.
There wasn't much to learn from the DVD roll out. It went very smoothly and all the 1G players had a full feature set and the only thing that was added later was the support for optional DTS track (which also needed receiver support). My 1G Sony even had component outputs.
ADGrant is offline  
Closed Thread HDTV Software Media Discussion

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off