Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 08:33 AM
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Does anybody know which German/European company has the distribution rights for all the Hollywood studios? Ok, Studio Canal seems to have the rights for Universal movies. But what about Warner, New Line etc. Who has the rights for HD releases in Germany/Europe for movies of these studios?

Thanks!
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post #632 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 08:38 AM
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Hi Amir

thanks for the reply.

All I can say after reading your responses is ... 'Amir for President!' :)
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post #633 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
That is what AVS Forum is for :). So fire away until it is clear.


Yes, there is no logic on disc or the player for region control of HD DVDs.


Currently there is no approved specification for region control in HD DVD. Indeed, V1.0 of the spec has no mention of it. So by definition, no disc published can have any region restriction.


I think you may be confusing the BD+ in BD format that allows for code on the disc and hence, the ability to do things like this.

HD DVD discs do not come with any code so there is no way a movie title could do anything like this. You would have needed to upgrade the firmware in the player to enable this.


My personal opinion is that you have your dream scenario already. If your existing player is working fine and you don't mess with its firmware, I don't see how it could all of a sudden have region control per my note above. A flag on the disc does nothing without software that can recognize it in the player.

Note that I want to leave .1% chance out there that there is something I don't know about this.


I don't see why not. My first HD DVD player was from Japan and it still plays everything worldwide.


Yes, I expect 24p to be the main standard for movies. Of course, there is no regulation that states it so. But I have very high confidence on this point.


Again, I think this is a safe assumption. But key is not needing to update the firmware in the future, should that version have region control.

Just to give you some additional comfort, first thing that has to happen is for there to be an approved spec. Once there, then the player would need to be updated/new units shipped that way. And then content needs to be marked as such. Some major studios see no need for region control today (and hence the reason it was not in V1.0 spec). So even if all of this happens, the situation is better than today's DVD because major content holders will not set the region flags...
A couple of things jumped to mind when reading this:

1) could the region coding logic/software already on the player for SD DVDs be recycled for use with the HD DVDs? I'm sure this would still require a firmware upgrade as you've mentioned to instruct the player, even if there are discs with flags already set, to do something with the flags.

2) i guess this calls for speculation but, did this new drive for region coding come from BD realizing that one of the guns in their arsenal, studio support/content, might misfire here in there given the different distribution deals abroad (e.g., Resident Evil being one of the launch titles in Japan...easily imported into the U.S.)?

[EDIT: PS, clean out your private messages, you've exceeded your limit ;)]
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post #634 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover
1) could the region coding logic/software already on the player for SD DVDs be recycled for use with the HD DVDs?
Not it can not. The specifications are different for system layer than current DVD. Again, there is no defined mechanism for anyone to use.

Quote:
2) i guess this calls for speculation but, did this new drive for region coding come from BD realizing that one of the guns in their arsenal, studio support/content, might misfire here in there given the different distribution deals abroad (e.g., Resident Evil being one of the launch titles in Japan...easily imported into the U.S.)?
region coding is a gun that can fire forward or back, and you may not know which until you pull the trigger :). (consumer versus content owner) For now, we are opting for a gun that only fires forward on HD DVD by not having it :). Should the content owners wish it, and with it comes intention to publish, then it might get there.

Quote:
[EDIT: PS, clean out your private messages, you've exceeded your limit ;)]
Sorry about that. I am receiving a ton of PMs for the visits and other topics that I can't keep it down fast enough, even managing it full time in my hotel room here...

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post #635 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Sorry about that. I am receiving a ton of PMs for the visits and other topics that I can't keep it down fast enough, even managing it full time in my hotel room here...
If you become a club member here ($35 for a year and $200 for 20 years) your storage will go to I believe 500 for the year membership and 1000 for the 20 year membership, which makes managing PMs much easier.

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post #636 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Jitter is used as an excuse by the audiophile press and manufacturers to justify spending thousands of dollars on things like CD transports and digital cables. Computers transmit data hundreds of times faster over much longer distances using electronics and cables that cost just a few dollars without missing a single bit.

Since the HDMI audio data is encrypted and multiplexed with video data, there is almost certainly error checking and/or correction and reclocking of the data before it's converted to analog.
Allow me to clarify,

Jitter rarely, if ever, results in bit-errors. that's not the problem. 100% perfect bit-recovery is not an issue.

What jitter affects is analog audio quality as the process of d/a conversion in almost all consumer and commercial gear slaves to the analog source clock coming in with the bitstream. Any inconsistencies in this clock result in timing errors when each sample is converted to analog... and therefore the shape of the final waveform is subtlely shifted from the natural sine-wave shape it original would have had.

It's a d/a conversion issue. BTW, if a d/a converter simply rejected the incoming clock and used its own clock that had perfect timing, there would be no jitter. There are a few high-end audio devices that do something like this. The danger there is that the incoming signal can get out of sync with the d/a's own disassociated clock, and so it's not very practical for video applications. The Genesis digital lens used a separate clock to reject up-stream jitter, and they had a RAM buffer to store the data from the CD transport and noted that a typical 74 minute CD shouldn't flow over the buffer or cause it to run dry.

BTW, the "jitter" reason is also why sometimes CDR copies of your CDs (dubbed bit for bit) can sound better on typical audio gear. I notice this all the time... a CDR copy of the original CD almost always sounds better. It turns out that the RF signal produced from the laser reading a CDR is cleaner than the typical aluminum reflection... and it's this RF signal that then becomes the "clock" that the CD transport uses for it's own internal d/a or to send out via SPDIF for an external d/a to slave to.

Allow me to repeat that in all these cases you have 100% bit accuracy. Jitter is a d/a issue that affects *when* those bits are converted to analog voltage in real time.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #637 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 10:46 AM
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lymzy posted in another thread that:
Quote:
PiP/IME/secondary video stream is limited at around 4-5Mbps per HD DVD spec.
Any insiders (or anybody else) know the numbers for Blu-ray?

Thanks,
Darin

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post #638 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 10:46 AM
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1 - Can anyone clarify if Dolby ThrueHD still has dial. norm. applied?
I believe it was confirmed that DD+ still has it.

2 - Is there any confirmation whether all Doby THD tracks on HD-DVDs are from 16/48 masters?

@Amir and Dennis

Now that the war against non-24p encoding has apparently been vanquished, maybe you guys can take a look at this thread and voice your opinions (and perhaps some undisclosed info on the matter up to now)

Thank you all for this great thread!

Oops link added:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=701175
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post #639 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1
Amir,

Posts such as this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8038729 are quite alarming. For the sake of the honesty, it'd be a good idea if the list on the site, lookandsound.....com was actually some sort of a reference as to if these those titles will be out by the end of the year.

If what Filmmixer is saying is true then it's pretty disappointing to see one of the major titles be nothing than hype for now. Just some timeframe on titles from studios would be greatly appreciated. Any thoughts?


Thanks,
Robert.
A good post that still hasn't been addressed...or can it not be at this point?

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post #640 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 11:05 AM
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Amir,

The "upcoming" content listed on the lookandsoundofperfect...are thsoe titles we can expect by the end of the year? Q1 '07? It would be ideal to have some release windows instead of just listing titles to that could possibly not even be out before Q4 07.
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post #641 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 11:13 AM
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The HD DVD site is not run by Microsoft. So I can't speak to accuracy of titles there. I can say that the list comes from the studios and they are picky about what they want to be said. I agree some titles may take a while to come out. But I really have no more data I can add to the discussion here.

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post #642 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 11:24 AM
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Good explanation David on Jitter :).

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post #643 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 11:27 AM
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That's fine but no reason why HD DVD backers can't sit together and agree to break up coming content into quarters.

HD DVD has done a good job so far in being honest with the consumer and delivering on their promises. To see this trend continue would go a long way for consumer confidence. I'd feel much more comfortable recommending HD DVD to friends if I could point them to the site and show them that some of the big hitters will be out around a certain time frame. I'll personally be keeping track of that list and seeing if it's good or just PR.
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post #644 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 11:47 AM
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Does the "jitter" D/A issue still happen when the content is sent over HDMI as a bitstream (future HDMI 1.3 Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio)?

Or is it an issue only with linear-PCM?

Bob

reference: CD player jitter explaination
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post #645 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 11:57 AM
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Hi Amir,

Do you see in the forseeable future music being available on HD formats (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray)? I'm mostly a fan of oldies so obviously most music will be in stereo or mono. Obviously SACD and DVD-A look to be almost dead. In what way will say the remastering of The Beatles be better if it is done in HD than compared to CD? This is probably a silly question, but all the tech talk around here makes me dizzy! Is this something to do with bit rates, ect? I assume all music on stores like itunes is currently maximum CD-quality and lossy. Will online sites be offering higher than CD quality downloads in the near future?

Is the music industry currently involved in HD? Any info you can share?

Thanks
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post #646 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 12:25 PM
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This may have been asked already but any chance of a firmware upgrade that would enable the Toshie to be region-free for SD DVD's? Or is that "illegal" in dvd-land?

"I have never seen it, but by all accounts it is terrible. However, I have seen the house that it built, and it is terrific." - Michael Caine, on Jaws the Revenge
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post #647 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
BTW, the "jitter" reason is also why sometimes CDR copies of your CDs (dubbed bit for bit) can sound better on typical audio gear. I notice this all the time... a CDR copy of the original CD almost always sounds better. It turns out that the RF signal produced from the laser reading a CDR is cleaner than the typical aluminum reflection... and it's this RF signal that then becomes the "clock" that the CD transport uses for it's own internal d/a or to send out via SPDIF for an external d/a to slave to.
CD players don't work the way you describe. The DAC clock is a free running clock and isn't derived from the CD data rate.
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post #648 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr
Does the "jitter" D/A issue still happen when the content is sent over HDMI as a bitstream (future HDMI 1.3 Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio)?
Good point. No it does not. Jitter has no meaning in the context of sending a compressed digital bit stream. To the extent that bit stream gets there intact, its timing is inconsequential. And you are then at the mercy of good implementation inside the receiver.

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post #649 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PauloB
Hi Amir,

Do you see in the forseeable future music being available on HD formats (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray)? I'm mostly a fan of oldies so obviously most music will be in stereo or mono. Obviously SACD and DVD-A look to be almost dead. In what way will say the remastering of The Beatles be better if it is done in HD than compared to CD? This is probably a silly question, but all the tech talk around here makes me dizzy! Is this something to do with bit rates, ect?
If you are asking about the prospects of high fidelity surround music from major music labels, then it is pretty bleak. The people promoting that have been let go for the most part. Because they pushed for SACD/DVD-A, while music downloads and MP3s where happening :). I am sure there are some left with a passion around high fidelity but with DVD-A and SACD essentially dead, I don't think they will have a voice.

So no, I don't expect a lot of music from them. I do expect the likes of Chesky, etc. to produce content in these formats. And if they want to make them more popular, put some HD video to go with it. The market will be small though. But for them it might be OK.

Quote:
I assume all music on stores like itunes is currently maximum CD-quality and lossy. Will online sites be offering higher than CD quality downloads in the near future?
Actually, we have been working with MusicGiants to bring lossless and greater than CD to market. Currently their catalog is the former but they will grow beyond that and with surround content to boot. Ultimately, digital downloads is a better path for independent, and small producers who care about such fidelity simply because they can't get distribution on retail shelves.

Overall though, the picture is not super bright, sad to say. I had to spend a lot of personal capital and expense internally at Microsoft to help get MusicGiant more support. People go where the masses and money is...

BTW, itunes store is lossy AAC and is well below CD quality to my ears...

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post #650 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 02:12 PM
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Amir,

While you're here :p, any comments on this post of mine (from yesterday in this thread)? No one has responded to it, and am curious as to the position of the insiders wrt getting progressive video off of an HD DVD without going thru a interlace-de-interlace process somewhere in the chain. From previous posts by Stacy (from a year ago) I had gotten the idea (perhaps mistakenly) that this was trivial for HD DVD; a recent post by "dr1394" (Ron) seems to suggest otherwise.

Hal
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post #651 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
...Actually, we have been working with MusicGiants to bring lossless and greater than CD to market. Currently their catalog is the former but they will grow beyond that and with surround content to boot. Ultimately, digital downloads is a better path for independent, and small producers who care about such fidelity simply because they can't get distribution on retail shelves.

Overall though, the picture is not super bright, sad to say. I had to spend a lot of personal capital and expense internally at Microsoft to help get MusicGiant more support. People go where the masses and money is...
Thanks very much for your good work! :) And also for answering my other HDMI jitter question.

Do you mean you are working with MusicGiants to provide 5.1 or 7.1 WMA lossless downloads? It does look like they are only offering 2 channel now.

Would there might be a future move to 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio once these codecs are in the hands of consumers? That is tied in with HD DVD discs and MMC?

Bob
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post #652 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr
Do you mean you are working with MusicGiants to provide 5.1 or 7.1 WMA lossless downloads? It does look like they are only offering 2 channel now.
Exactly. The DVD-A/SACD masters are being used to create these tracks.

Quote:
Would there might be a future move to 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio once these codecs are in the hands of consumers? That is tied in with HD DVD discs and MMC?

Bob
This can be done of course. But per my earlier post, I think the time has come and gone for this kind of market. There will be music videos to be sure, but they remain niche products.

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post #653 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 02:34 PM
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I would hope that in the near future higher quality audio could at least be downloaded. I mean both HD formats have the DVD-A spec in it doesn't it? And HD and BD burners will be out soon.

Why can't it be a higher price option at some online music store? It's like when you book a flight, you can book coach or first class. Can't music downloads come in first class?

I don't get why movies are getting HD but for music we're stuck to CD quality or below downloads. Seems that you are losing a market here, even if it isn't a huge one.

Sure, DVD-A and SACD failed. Does that mean we totally give up on high quality audio? Doesn't make sense when the internet could be our friend here.
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post #654 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 02:37 PM
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I missed last post, that's great that you're working with MusicGiants for higher than CD quality downloads. I hope some of that work includes higher quality 2-CH downloads for us oldies lovers! Lots of older music can't be surround sound.
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post #655 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Good point. No it does not. Jitter has no meaning in the context of sending a compressed digital bit stream. To the extent that bit stream gets there intact, its timing is inconsequential. And you are then at the mercy of good implementation inside the receiver.
The design issues are the same whether the audio is compressed or not. The receiver has no way to tell the source, "my buffer is getting full, slow down", or "my buffer is getting empty, speed up". The receiver has to accept the audio at whatever speed the source sets. This is true for SPDIF, and it's true for HDMI also.
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post #656 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M
The design issues are the same whether the audio is compressed or not. The receiver has no way to tell the source, "my buffer is getting full, slow down", or "my buffer is getting empty, speed up". The receiver has to accept the audio at whatever speed the source sets. This is true for SPDIF, and it's true for HDMI also.
Interesting. Luke could you identify your insider status? I am an engineer but do not work in the video or audio fields. Just an enthusiast for home enjoyment. The buffer full/empty issue seems different than clock jitter. Sure it might be a different problem though. And sound really different!

Bob
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post #657 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 05:28 PM
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Does anyone know: What the Overhead Data Rate for HD-DVD is? The Symbol Rate for HD-DVD? The Symbol Rate for Blu-ray Disc?

With Blu-ray being TS based, does anyone know what professional uses are being developed to utilize Blu-ray Disc (i.e., Off-line Storage, Near-line Storage, Archiving, etc.)?
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post #658 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Actually, we have been working with MusicGiants to bring lossless and greater than CD to market. Currently their catalog is the former but they will grow beyond that and with surround content to boot. Ultimately, digital downloads is a better path for independent, and small producers who care about such fidelity simply because they can't get distribution on retail shelves.
That sounds great Amir.

Would it be possible to burn such content to BD-R or HD-DVD-R and play such high-resolution content on an appropriate high-end BD or HD-DVD player?

I'd want to get such content out of my PC (my PC speakers suck) and into my main rig (no I don't want to hook my PC to my system) :)

Secondly album covers (and backs) are important. Such digital downloads should allow people to create something that almost looks like it was purchased from a store (rather than looking like PC pirate job). It'd want something that looks good in my CD shelf (covers, booklets are important to me).

Anyway, there is still a small hope for high-res audio, thankfully.

Dennis.
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post #659 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 07:00 PM
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[quote=Tom McMahon][quote=rdjam]Hi Tom - Can the Broadcom chips in the A1 output the 1080p24 video it is decoding on HD DVD?
Quote:
Yes.
Tom, if you are still reading this, can it output 1080p24sf? When you say that 1080p24 is possible, is it with your current firmware? I know that the manufacturers of the players would have to update their firmware, but I am asking about the present Broadcom firmware.
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post #660 of 4623 Old 07-20-2006, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm
Just adding to my answer, HDMI 1.3 will not do anything to improve jitter. Jitter is a function of electrical design of the system, not what protocol is used on the wire.

Also note that "re-clocking" and buffering on the receiver can also help a lot with jitter, but it introduces delay which may not be welcome without compensation elsewhere.
Why couldn't a crystal controlled PLL be used to clean up the jitter without re-clocking the data bits? It has been awhile since I did this sort of hardware design but I think prctically any spec on jitter could be achieved via some refinement of this method, couldn't it?

- John
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