Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 04:16 PM
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Amir, I don't know if you missed this as it was the last post a couple of pages ago:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8046516

:confused:
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post #722 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 04:16 PM
 
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Can some of the insiders give us their thoughts on the bandwidth of each format.. Tere is a thread list below but I'm curious as to what the insiders view is on that from both camps. What advantages does it give to either format?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=701698

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert
To recap:

Bandwidth is 30 Mbit/s in HD DVD, 48 Mbit/s in BD
All audio streams (active or not) count toward bandwidth, both in HD DVD and BD
An IME track (PiP commentary) can take 1-2Mbps (using VC-1) or 3-4Mbps (MPEG2)
Each lossless audio track takes 3-4Mbps
Warner has been encoding DD+ at 640 kb/s. Universal has been using 1.5 mb/s.

With that in mind, we go back to the question:

If we have a movie with a 1.85:1 aspect ratio, with grainy picture, and high-action sequences which coincide with active audio, is there enough bandwidth (in BD and HD DVD) to accomodate transparent audio and video and a PiP commentary?
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post #723 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 04:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hli
When you put the master data trough the encoder I'll guess, there is more to it than just hitting the "Encode" button and later a 100% quality HD DVD pops out at the other end. How does it actually work? How many man hours does it take in average to encode a HD DVD?.
The movie is automatically encoded using our two-pass VBR encoder. The codec attempts to predict the quality level as it is encoding the movie and adjusts the bandwidth as needed. It is a 2-pass encoder because it is also told to arrive at certain size for the movie so it has to first "see" the entire clip and then figure out how spread the bits.

Then the operator views the clip, comparing it with the original. Anytime there is visible distortion, a third-pass encode is made where that segment (marked by timecode) is then re-encoded at higher data rate or with other codec parameters optimized to eliminate the distortion.

We have been working very hard to make the automated part work better as to reduce the manual process which is expensive and slows throughput. The tool has gotten really good now. On one of the upcoming titles, there were only 9 segments that needed encoding for example, when the average with MPEG-2 on today's DVD can be as high as 200! Studios are starting to tell us that the turn around time now with VC-1 HD DVD is much shorter than current DVDs using this tool (one day versus a week)! Of course, there is some variations but the trend is very promising.

So as you see, codec efficiency has other virtues. Even if MPEG-2 can match us, it will likely require a lot more tuning than VC-1.

Quote:
(By the way i just came back from a photo session tour/vacation in Grand Canyon with my Canon 20D :) - that place is amazing)
Thanks for your time - I really wonder how you can find spare time for this - just fantastic!!
I love digital photography and 20D is a dandy camera. It is only bested by the 5D if you don’t need the finer pitch pixels for telephoto work…
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post #724 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 04:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efralope
-Apparantly the iHD advocates at Disney couldn't overcome their BD-J supporters.
Actually they did. Disney voted for iHD in both DVD forum (working group and board level) and BD working group and if I am not mistaken also at board level. iHD lost because other companies voted against it. Only then, did Disney started to go along with Java. Indeed, if you read Bill's (Talkstr8's) posts early on in this forum, you see him not having such a kind attitude toward Disney :).

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Do you know if there are still people at Disney that care for this technology, or have they moved on/no longer work there?
They do but they are in BD camp and BD doesn't support iHD so they are not vocal about it.

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-Once a studio encodes/authors a title in one format (let's say WB), is it basically a no-cost situation in doing a port to another (HD DVD VC-1 encode being used for Blu-ray for example)? This is supposing it would fit on whatever size discs were being used (let's say a 10GB movie for arugment's sake).
Yes. We have a tool for conversion of VC-1 streams into equiv streams for BD.

Quote:
-On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the relationship in HD DVD movie collaboaration with the studios for VC-1 support and disc checking/review? My guess would be a 9 or so for Warner and Universal, 8 for Studio Canal, and 5 for Paramount (this based of what Microsoft has made known publicy).
You mean how closely we work with them to support them with VC-1? If so, they would all get pretty high scores.

Quote:
-What are the chances we see Weinstein titles before the end of the year?
I can't comment. Sorry.

Quote:
-Do you expect the same effort from Studio Canal that Warner and Universal gave with their titles (visuals + audio + extras)?
I don't personally know. I know they have been trained on iHD.

Quote:
-If you were a betting man, what would you rate the chances of another studio announcing HD DVD support before Jan. 1st here in the US (any of the 5 "major" not yet supporting HD DVD) - less than 50%, or more than 50%?
I can't really give such answers in public. I will say that every day that goes by, HD DVD gets stronger. This has been the trend since CES in January.
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post #725 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 04:40 PM
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Thank you for the answers :)

hopefully you don't feel badgered everytime a question relates to studio-related matters

good luck with the group meeting
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post #726 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 04:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey
Can some of the insiders give us their thoughts on the bandwidth of each format.. Tere is a thread list below but I'm curious as to what the insiders view is on that from both camps. What advantages does it give to either format?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=701698
I have commented on bandwidth issues at length in a parallel thread but it created a tense and non-productive situation so I have not followed up. So if it is OK, I will not comment on it for a while until things calm down. And probably not in this thread.

As to Grubert's remark, I like to see how that scenario fits in BD-25 :).
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post #727 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 04:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
I have commented on bandwidth issues at length in a parallel thread but it created a tense and non-productive situation so I have not followed up. So if it is OK, I will not comment on it for a while until things calm down. And probably not in this thread.

As to Grubert's remark, I like to see how that scenario fits in BD-25 :).
ok, no worries. Can you be so kind to point me to the "parallel thread". Just trying to amuse my curiousity. Thanks and have a great weekend :)
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post #728 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 04:59 PM
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Amir
Thanks for all of the very appreciated insights. Sorry to be so non technical with a question, but many HD-DVD owners just want to know when some new releases are coming out? I may buy some old titles I do not already have, but not many "upgrades". Looking at the usual lists of coming titles I am rather underwhelmed and ready to toss the thing off my balcony in disgust. Well, ok, maybe not....

A bit off topic, but you did mention "musicgiants" - why does this site work only with IE? Extremely annoying!
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post #729 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey
ok, no worries. Can you be so kind to point me to the "parallel thread". Just trying to amuse my curiousity. Thanks and have a great weekend :)
Since Amir may be somewhere around North Victory Blvd :eek: in Burbank now………….

Try starting about here…………………..
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8009423

Good stuff. Make sure you persevere to the very end.
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post #730 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 06:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
Since Amir may be somewhere around North Victory Blvd :eek: in Burbank now………….

Try starting about here…………………..
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8009423

Good stuff. Make sure you persevere to the very end.
thanks.. another member PM'd me as well. Definitely heated. Found some of the info as well, thanks Amirm. This plus tons of other info that I need to wade through.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
1. I accept, as others, that the peak rate in BD is higher and that our job would be simpler with higher data rate. As has also been noted, higher rate also makes the system more expensive in more places than one. For example, higher peak rates in the codec require more expensive decoders..
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post #731 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
The movie is automatically encoded using our two-pass VBR encoder. The codec attempts to predict the quality level as it is encoding the movie and adjusts the bandwidth as needed. It is a 2-pass encoder because it is also told to arrive at certain size for the movie so it has to first "see" the entire clip and then figure out how spread the bits.

Then the operator views the clip, comparing it with the original. Anytime there is visible distortion, a third-pass encode is made where that segment (marked by timecode) is then re-encoded at higher data rate or with other codec parameters optimized to eliminate the distortion.

We have been working very hard to make the automated part work better as to reduce the manual process which is expensive and slows throughput. The tool has gotten really good now. On one of the upcoming titles, there were only 9 segments that needed encoding for example, when the average with MPEG-2 on today's DVD can be as high as 200! Studios are starting to tell us that the turn around time now with VC-1 HD DVD is much shorter than current DVDs using this tool (one day versus a week)! Of course, there is some variations but the trend is very promising.

So as you see, codec efficiency has other virtues. Even if MPEG-2 can match us, it will likely require a lot more tuning than VC-1.

This is what I don't understand about Sony's 1-pass encoder. Even us home users that do encodes in MPEG-2 always use 2-pass VBR.

So, I have two questions for any Insiders:

1. Why does Sony use a single pass encoder?

2. This relates to time. Is there a huge reason why an encode that takes 1 day compared to 1 week that big of a deal? Since I don't work in the encoding industry, I just always imagined that digital encodes took a long time to do. Honestly, studios can push their release date back ONE week for a better encode if it takes that long to get it right. I don't think consumers would mind. (Or better yet, if schedules apply, get the source to the encoders a week early.)

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #732 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 06:55 PM
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Sony's encoder is 2-pass. It is realtime per pass.
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post #733 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
I would second the further explanation of why BD made the wiser choice.
There is no ambiguity with 24p. It is what it is. With a telecine flagged stream, you don't know if it is all 24p or mixed content. With the VC1 the post houses are using, it is all 24p, due to the tool set. With other encoders, it is anyones guess.

All of the VC1 HD DVD titles today are 24p with no bad edits or flag issues.

Quote:
I believe what the gist of his comments were that you couldn't ignore the flags and still be "legal" (as in compliance)
Sure you can.

Quote:
[c] do you mean if there is mixed content on the disc, like 24p as well as 30/60i? that would be a nightmare on any of my current displays as they don't re-sync very quickly.
e.g. You put in your favorite BD title and you watch the main feature with your BD player set to output 24p. Once done you are interested in how the movie was made so you switch over to the bonus content, which is 60i. Does the player stay in forced 24p mode and produce a really bad image? Does the player switch to 60p or 60i output, which causes your display to loose sync, flicker like mad, re-nogiate HDCP, etc...

I don't know the answer to the above scenario.

The trend on HD DVD is to encode the PiP at 30p. They deinterlace the 480i to 480p30 and encode. How do you best composite these two different frame rates? How does a display or video processor that is performing inverse telecine handle this mixed source material?
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post #734 of 4623 Old 07-21-2006, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Unfortunately, the area that we have next to no influence in is the titles. That is a purely business decision for the studios and we try to not poke our nose in it. Lest we want them to tell us how to design VC-1 :).
You mean you wouldnt want a bunch of marketing guys telling you how to code?!? ;)

I wish we could get one of those studio execs in here!! They could learn alot.

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post #735 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears
There is no ambiguity with 24p. It is what it is. With a telecine flagged stream, you don't know if it is all 24p or mixed content. With the VC1 the post houses are using, it is all 24p, due to the tool set. With other encoders, it is anyones guess.

All of the VC1 HD DVD titles today are 24p with no bad edits or flag issues.
I'm sorry, but I can't seem to follow. What you say sounds as if both HD-DVD and BluRay would be encoding in 24p. And that's also what I always believed. So in what way do they differ? If BD made the wiser choice, there must be some difference, but where exactly is the difference? I don't see it.

Thanks!
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post #736 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 06:12 AM
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I have a question regarding highbrid discs. Is it possible to produce highbrids that have HD30 on one side and DVD9 on the opposite? What are the possible options? I am sure this was probably covered somewhere but this thread is rather cumbersome now and I can't seem to find what I am asking.

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post #737 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlehman
I have a question regarding highbrid discs. Is it possible to produce highbrids that have HD30 on one side and DVD9 on the opposite? What are the possible options? I am sure this was probably covered somewhere but this thread is rather cumbersome now and I can't seem to find what I am asking.

Stace
I know that I've seen it here somewhere that the HD30/DVD9 hybrids should be coming soon.
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post #738 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 09:43 AM
 
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David you are putting me out of business :).
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post #739 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 01:41 PM
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Asked Morrissey....how soon is now? :)

Questions for insiders: why am I seeing BD in bulky plastic security cases on store shelves when HD DVD can stand without? Doesn't that kind of defeat the engineering effort to move to a smaller/slimmer package?

Alex doesn't live here anymore
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post #740 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
This is why I and some others have talked about 120hz output at some point, which is a nice multiple of both 60i and 24p and does not require repeating fields.
Just curious but wouldn't you need a 120 Hz display that can accept a 1080p120 signal for that to be possible? Wouldn't it be a lot easier and cheaper to have 1080p24 output instead?
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post #741 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 05:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Just curious but wouldn't you need a 120 Hz display that can accept a 1080p120 signal for that to be possible? Wouldn't it be a lot easier and cheaper to have 1080p24 output instead?
Cheaper and better? Sounds like you are singing my tune :).

Anyway, Stacey already answered this. Please take a look at his post. Basically, anything other than 24p on disc will then force a mode switch in your display, picturing going blank, etc. So there will be no nice way of playing and interlaced 1080i content and seamlessly switching to 1080p and back.

And if you are talking about crunching the 1080i60 into 1080p24 in the player, I think we can all agree that is not a good idea.

So cheaper, yes. Better? No. Will we see 120hz anytime soon? In computer monitors, perhaps. CE products, probably not for a while...
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post #742 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
So in what way do they differ?
In the BD case, you can only put 24p content into the 24p stream. In the HD DVD case, you can put 24p and 60i. The RFF and TFF flags describe the stream.

Note that you can also do the RFF and TFF in BD if you want.
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post #743 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
So cheaper, yes. Better? No. Will we see 120hz anytime soon? In computer monitors, perhaps. CE products, probably not for a while...

Mike53, the Sharp insider, said Sharp would release 120Hz LCDTV next spring. There will be 120Hz LCD from another brand this fall also.

HDPLEX
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post #744 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 10:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy
Mike53, the Sharp insider, said Sharp would release 120Hz LCDTV next spring. There will be 120Hz LCD from another brand this fall also.
Wow. Really? I need to hang around the flat panel section again! :)

I will be meeting with Sharp executives in August (unrelated to HD formats). I will poke around more to see what I can learn...
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post #745 of 4623 Old 07-22-2006, 11:42 PM
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for the 24p playback pb in hd dvd, why don't you just let the user decide if he wants to play the movie at 24p or not, and then disable pip and ime if they were encoded at 60i.
If losing interractivity is the only trade off to 24p, it doesn't bother me at all.
And if we can do the same thing with audio (only have the audio track and nothing at all mixed with it during playback) it would be perfect.

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #746 of 4623 Old 07-23-2006, 07:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vairulez
for the 24p playback pb in hd dvd, why don't you just let the user decide if he wants to play the movie at 24p or not, and then disable pip and ime if they were encoded at 60i.
If losing interractivity is the only trade off to 24p, it doesn't bother me at all.
And if we can do the same thing with audio (only have the audio track and nothing at all mixed with it during playback) it would be perfect.
It is a good suggestion but a tricky one. Essentially, if you do things like this, you are liable to lock horns with the creative part of the studios where it appears you are not letting their artistic impression work the way they have designed it.

Indeed, one of the studios that I talked to was very upset that one of the digital audio outputs does not carry the sound from interactivity subsystem.

There may also be support calls/returns if the user doesn't realize the machine is configured this way, and wonders why PiP is not working (blaming the disc or the player).

So I don't think mainstream players can do things like this. But higher-end, lower volume companies can get away with it as the studios will not worry that majority of their customers will be impacted this way. And their customers like you, will be savvy enough to not run into support issue above.
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post #747 of 4623 Old 07-23-2006, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy
Mike53, the Sharp insider, said Sharp would release 120Hz LCDTV next spring. There will be 120Hz LCD from another brand this fall also.
Taking 120Hz input?

Does HDMI 1.3 support 120Hz? It seems to have sufficient bandwidth (at least for the smaller colour depths).

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post #748 of 4623 Old 07-23-2006, 02:17 PM
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I have a question re the USB ports on the Tosh and RCA players. If you look here
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/RCA-H...oductDetail.do

Now see where they say USB game ports at the top where they list the features of the player? So what's the deal here, are the players going to be used as game boxes down the road?
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post #749 of 4623 Old 07-23-2006, 05:23 PM
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I got a question for amirm; Is the HD-DVD add-on player for the Xbox 360 going to support burned HD-DVD movies on DVD-R DL disks, like the current standalone HD-DVD players do now?
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post #750 of 4623 Old 07-23-2006, 05:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxik
I got a question for amirm; Is the HD-DVD add-on player for the Xbox 360 going to support burned HD-DVD movies on DVD-R DL disks, like the current standalone HD-DVD players do now?
You know, I have not asked but I assume it can. Playing red-laser is part of HD DVD spec.
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