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post #1351 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 07:07 PM
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Sorry but I can't disclose details yet on our 360 implementation. We will be spec compliant however.

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post #1352 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Sorry but I can't disclose details yet on our 360 implementation. We will be spec compliant however.
I appreciate your reply.

I have my fingers crossed Microsoft will announce a release date and price for that add-on soon so I can decide between buying that and the Toshiba HD-A1.
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post #1353 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 07:11 PM
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Anthony, I kind recommend that follow ups like yours be in another thread. I prefer to not get into open ended discussions here. It would make it impossible for others to see answers to questions.

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post #1354 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 07:22 PM
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Amir,
Care to answer my post re: Xbox 360 HD-DVD scaling to 720p - equal or better than the Toshiba with HD-DVD material based on what you've seen so far? (post #1235).

Or was your post 3 up the answer?
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post #1355 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H
I'm going to post this for the last time: This topic is for questions to Industry Insiders, and their answers. Any further additional comments by other members will result in them being suspended or banned.
Hold the phone here Ken……..IF you are referring to me. :confused:

Please re-read the guidelines from Post #1 by markrubin…………
(Unless the guidelines have some addendum that I missed)

“Post Questions directed to and answered only by Industry Insiders who are asked to identify themselves as such

Industry Insiders may answer questions or make comments: this is the thread for chat between Insiders as well

any AVS member can post questions for Insiders- but we will not tolerate any bashing
AVS recognizes the special nature of Industry Insiders and values their participation: we ask all AVS members to treat them with respect

Lets see how this works for a while.†(END)


1. If I have the access to have lunch with Ben Feingold from SPHE and post his comments here on AVS forum for those to critique….I assume that makes me more of an insider to Sony Pictures than anyone on this forum.

2. Deleted post represented chat between Amir and myself. I chatted with Amir in a most innocuous fashion because of the tone of his post regarding the Samsung – because NO-ONE else would.

I imagine I can always restrict my postings to threads like this :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8183217
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post #1356 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkH
Amir,
Care to answer my post re: Xbox 360 HD-DVD scaling to 720p - equal or better than the Toshiba with HD-DVD material based on what you've seen so far? (post #1235).
I have not seen the scaling performance of the 360. So I don't want to say anything just to have it be wrong :). But given the GPU support there for high fidelity scaling of other objects, I expect it perform well.

Quote:
Or was your post 3 up the answer?
No that we regarding audio support. :)

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post #1357 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McMahon

I am a great fan of 10 bits/component (after having done a ton of testing and seen the results). But I don't see either blue-laser format adopting 10 bits any time soon.

When we finalized the H.264/AVC High Profiles, we did a bit of work to see if you could decode a 10 bit/component stream (H.264/AVC Hi-10 Profile) on an 8 bit decoder without any problems. It decoded, but there was unacceptable drift.

Had we had more time in the standardization process it might have been possible to come up with a design that would have been inherently downward-compatible (in other words an 8 bit decoder could eat either an 8 bit or a 10 bit stream without any problems). But by the time this issue came up the committee was close to finalizing the High Profile amendment and it fell off the end of our work list. Sigh.

The only way I see 10 bits happening at all is to exploit the new layered coding tools (SVC, or Scalable Video Coding) that's just now coming out of the JVT. That would enable a backwards-compatible 8 bit base layer to work with all existing players, while enabling a new generation of players to exploit the enhancement layer at some point that would have greater pixel depth (and all the beneficial side effects).

Of course you could also have super-bit blue-laser high definition DVDs that wouldn't play on the first gen players. Not sure of the marketing implications of that....

Well the vast majority of the intial Blu-Ray installed base will be PS3's, and doesn't the PS3 use the "CELL" cpu to decode? I'm guessing that "CELL" is going to be very flexable handling problems thrown at it. It'll be able to handle h.264 Hi-Pro 10 without any drifting problems correct?

Anyway, as you floated as a possibility, a "super bit" style format could surface, along with other things. Perhaps even an improved codec from Microsoft designed around xvYCC color space. VC-2?
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post #1358 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
Hold the phone here Ken……..IF you are referring to me. :confused:
I'm referring to everyone.

Quote:
1. If I have the access to have lunch with Ben Feingold from SPHE and post his comments here on AVS forum for those to critique….I assume that makes me more of an insider to Sony Pictures than anyone on this forum.
Feel free to post info from that source in this topic. Be specific.


Quote:
2. Deleted post represented chat between Amir and myself. I chatted with Amir in a most innocuous fashion because of the tone of his post regarding the Samsung – because NO-ONE else would.
No one is being asked to chat up Amir in this fashion. As a matter of fact, the whole point of this topic is not to chat up anyone in this fashion.

Questions and answers, and in a few select cases like your info from Mr. Feingold, second hand insider comments.

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post #1359 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimstone-1
So if "VC-1" can't handle "xvYCC" color space it would seem to be a technological dead-end.
VC-1 can handly ANY color space you throw at it. The codec really doesn't care. Here is an analogy for you. Do you think the zip program cares if I feed it these English words or the same in Spanish?

VC-1 does allow the color matrix to be embedded in its header to handle arbitrary color spaces. But you don't want to get your hopes high as we (CE industry/products) can't even handle SMPTE C versus proper 709 right now, let alone get another color space mapped into it. First priority should be to get everything to 709 before we have higher ambitions.

Quote:
I assume that a movie encoded with "xvYCC" color space is going to be more demanding in terms of bit rate and file size.
I have not heard of any interest whatsoever in encoding either BD or HD DVD titles in this color space. Maybe others have, but I doubt it...

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post #1360 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
I think it's a fair question to ask whether the BD launch titles PQ would have been so heavily criticized if it weren't being compared to that of the initial (and best) HD-DVD titles.

Any issues you may have with the initial BD title releases reflects only on those who released those titles, not the whole Blu-ray community. - Talk
Thanks for your reply.

To follow up your question I do think BR early titles would be panned even if HD-DVD came out as a gimp product because early adopters are zealots and expect STELLAR PQ well beyond OTA HD. You didn't really answer the question if they expected backlash, so I take that as they're VERY SURPRISED there was and continues to be PQ backlash :(


Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
The best case scenario is where every title is being released with all the content (at the best A/V quality) which the studio is willing to put on the disc. So the first question is how many movies will require BD50, assuming advanced codecs are being used? My guess is, at least until new forms of bonus materials are developed which are more storage-intensive than those we see today ("making of..", trailers, gag reel, deleted scenes, etc.), less than 20% of all movies are long enough to justify the use of BD50. I predict that one to two years from now every movie which justifies release on BD50 will be released that way. Put another way, I don't think you'll see anyone releasing two BD25 discs instead of one BD50 disc.- Talk
To clarify, you're saying 20% of movies justify BD-50 and within 2 years those 20% will certainly be on BD-50 (not squeezed in BD-25 or using two BD-25 discs).

That means you expect 80% of Blu-ray discs will be 25GB platters?

Please do not take this as a loaded question because i am for HIGHY QUALITY PQ (and little extras and fluff)... I'd like to suggest to you that most people here were/are expecting pretty much EVERY BRD title to be BD50 within 12-18 months due to 5GB disadvantage to HD-DVD/30 AND the hightly publicised 50GB standard. Do you not see this as a problem or do you think 25GB is 100% sufficient for 80% of the titles and bluray will just market it's way past the 5GB deficit ?

DVD's are about movies & people watch them in living rooms, how many people actually use their computer drives to sit and watch movies- Bluray's Andy Parsons
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post #1361 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm

I have not heard of any interest whatsoever in encoding either BD or HD DVD titles in this color space. Maybe others have, but I doubt it...

But next-gen display technology that will start arriving in 2007 into consummers homes, that will be hungry for movies encoded "xvYCC". Obviously right now the intrest level is going to be low because the installed base is zero.

My questioning is more about how things will unfold longer term between the formats. Does Blu-Ray have more headroom?


For example, lets say we are in the year 2008, and LCD displays with LED backlights and DLP and LCoS sets with novalux lasers are selling at a brisk pace. Consummers are going to want movies that take advantage of the "xvYCC" color space these HDTV's provide. Two major optical disc formats will be providing HD movies, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Which of these formats is better positioned to transistion into "xvYCC"?

In this scenario how will VC-1 fair against h.264/AVC? Keep in mind Sony has already declared "Full HD World" is "xvYCC" at 1080p. So if Time Warner wanted to encode some movies for the HD-DVD format in the year 2009 with "xvYCC" color space could they do it? Would they need a triple layer disc because the movie size would become larger? Would they have to use h.264/AVC?
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post #1362 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
Fully CGI films like Cars/Toy Story.
Cool, I was not aware that any CGI films were "in the pipeline" so to speak (other than Dinosaur which I assumed to be MPEG2).

I think know the answer to my next question but I will ask it anyway: care to tell us what CGI films you have encoded with VC-1? :D
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post #1363 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 09:59 PM
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I, as well as probably everyone else, was under the impression that the 50gig BD was the way to go for every movie.

I'm gonna have say I'm with Chinch on this one. If the vast majority of movies won't even fill up 25 gigs, why pay a premium for Blu Ray over HDDVD?
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post #1364 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
Amir, you are well aware that this statement is completely fallacious. There are many, many reasons why Samsung would choose not to immediately release a firmware upgrade, especially one to "correct" what may have simply been a design decision. Your suggestion that the two months is how long it is taking Samsung to "figure out how to do it" is among the least likely possible reasons. See this post for a discussion of possible reasons for not rushing a firmware upgrade to market, and this thread for ample evidence that Toshiba's multiple firmware upgrades have generated customer dissatisfaction.

- Talk
I know i should keep my mouth shut and stick to just asking insider questions BUT ( here we go) there has been no dissatisfaction on my end with "Toshiba's multiple firmware upgrades" i wish more attention to detail were taken with other electronic devices.

ok...with that said , Amir is there any plan to help educate retail stores about blu-ray and hd dvd? so far many Best Buys I have been to have very little knowledge and tend to be Blu bias. :(
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post #1365 of 4623 Old 08-10-2006, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinch
You didn't really answer the question if they expected backlash, so I take that as they're VERY SURPRISED there was and continues to be PQ backlash
I have not discussed the release with anyone at the studios directly involved with the releases, so I don't know whether they were surprised or not.

Quote:
To clarify, you're saying 20% of movies justify BD-50 and within 2 years those 20% will certainly be on BD-50 (not squeezed in BD-25 or using two BD-25 discs).

That means you expect 80% of Blu-ray discs will be 25GB platters?
In the short-term, yes. As studios start to find more interesting things to add to the disc (lower resolution versions of the movie for portable playback, additional bonus content, bundling other TV shows, bundling PS3 content, etc.) the percentage of 25GB releases will drop. I'm also not factoring in TV series compilations and such which would clearly demand the highest capacity possible. And if it turns out people favor lossless audio perhaps more titles would be released on BD50 as well.

Quote:
I'd like to suggest to you that most people here were/are expecting pretty much EVERY BRD title to be BD50 within 12-18 months due to 5GB disadvantage to HD-DVD/30 AND the hightly publicised 50GB standard. Do you not see this as a problem or do you think 25GB is 100% sufficient for 80% of the titles and bluray will just market it's way past the 5GB deficit ?
I don't think there's a need to market it's way past a 5GB deficit, I'm saying titles will be released on the size disc required to support the content, and for the next year or so 80% of the time 25GB will be enough. I haven't seen any complaints about the HD-DVD titles released on 15GB discs. It's the quality of the final disc which matters. If a given movie can be encoded for transparent PQ with good audio support and reasonable bonus features in 25GB, why release on 50GB? Using 15GB of the 25GB for video at 15Mb/sec (which should be sufficient for superb PQ on virtually all titles) is sufficient for 2:13, and would still leave 10GB for audio and bonus features. I suspect something approaching 80% of all movies are shorter than 2:13.

Again, in time discs will creep up in size, but in the short-term I think the studios will be less ambitious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe-Six-Pack
If the vast majority of movies won't even fill up 25 gigs, why pay a premium for Blu Ray over HDDVD?
Because in many cases the longer titles are more desirable (i.e. LOTR), because there will be other non-movie content or special editions which require more than 30GB, and because I'm not comfortable assuming that five years from now the studios won't have found some other damn good uses for the extra headroom that 50GB or more capacity can provide.

- Talk

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post #1366 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
I don't think there's a need to market it's way past a 5GB deficit, I'm saying titles will be released on the size disc required to support the content, and for the next year or so 80% of the time 25GB will be enough. I haven't seen any complaints about the HD-DVD titles released on 15GB discs. It's the quality of the final disc which matters. If a given movie can be encoded for transparent PQ with good audio support and reasonable bonus features in 25GB, why release on 50GB? Using 15GB of the 25GB for video at 15Mb/sec (which should be sufficient for superb PQ on virtually all titles) is sufficient for 2:13, and would still leave 10GB for audio and bonus features. I suspect something approaching 80% of all movies are shorter than 2:13.
Sorry just to ask one question, are you talking about VC-1 or MPEG-2?
Thanks
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post #1367 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by SonyAteMyBaby
Cool, I was not aware that any CGI films were "in the pipeline" so to speak (other than Dinosaur which I assumed to be MPEG2).

I think know the answer to my next question but I will ask it anyway: care to tell us what CGI films you have encoded with VC-1? :D
Sorry. Can't do release schedule. Especially since I don't even know WHV's release schedule plans (thanks to 1-week press releases). The Cars/Toy Story reference is because I work for Warner and if I'd mentioned a Warner title, you might infer that as an upcoming title.

Cjplay.
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post #1368 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t
The best case scenario is where every title is being released with all the content (at the best A/V quality) which the studio is willing to put on the disc. So the first question is how many movies will require BD50, assuming advanced codecs are being used? My guess is, at least until new forms of bonus materials are developed which are more storage-intensive than those we see today ("making of..", trailers, gag reel, deleted scenes, etc.), less than 20% of all movies are long enough to justify the use of BD50. I predict that one to two years from now every movie which justifies release on BD50 will be released that way. Put another way, I don't think you'll see anyone releasing two BD25 discs instead of one BD50 disc.

- Talk
Hi Bill,

I am very gratefull for the insider information you provide on Java software on Bluray players - thank you for this.

Could you tell me a little of your involvement/experience with the encoding aspect of the movies, and the production/manufacturing of discs, as it seem you have quite a bit to add on these matters too?

Also, what performance differences can we expect on the other Bluray players coming out this year, in comparison to the rather challenging (ie sluggish) navigation responses from the Samsung player?

Ahh... F1 in full HD 3D with
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post #1369 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 05:25 AM
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Cjplay,

any word about the codecs that Disney and Fox intend to use? Naturally we're all hoping they go with VC1 given the issues we've seen with MPEG2 at 25 gigs (at least Sony's implimentation of it).

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #1370 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland
Sigma Designs has a SoC ready to go for BD, does Broadcom have one as well?
Sure.

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post #1371 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 06:56 AM
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Thanks Talk.

When, if ever, do you expect Sony-studio bluray titles to use either AVC or VC-1 encoding for the featured movie (forget extras for now)?

If AVC or VC-1 is used (by Sony), what percent of titles would these be?

In short i'm trying to nail down if Sony Studio has any plans (yet) to abandon MPEG-2 for the feature movies on bluray. I myself (and most here i would wager) expect most (if not all) other BR studios to use VC-1 almost exclusively by next year.

DVD's are about movies & people watch them in living rooms, how many people actually use their computer drives to sit and watch movies- Bluray's Andy Parsons
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post #1372 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinch
Thanks Talk.

When, if ever, do you expect Sony-studio bluray titles to use either AVC or VC-1 encoding for the featured movie (forget extras for now)?

If AVC or VC-1 is used (by Sony), what percent of titles would these be?

In short i'm trying to nail down if Sony Studio has any plans (yet) to abandon MPEG-2 for the feature movies on bluray. I myself (and most here i would wager) expect most (if not all) other BR studios to use VC-1 almost exclusively by next year.
Just an honest question - why do you care? It is outside of your control, it'll be decided by business and technical reasons, and it'll be what it'll be. Why fret?

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post #1373 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 11:14 AM
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Tom,

Why do you continously downplay the importance of codecs? lately you've been doing that a lot but with "delivery boy" analogies but it's quite apparant that codecs are the main ingredients in our meal and go a long way to determine how good it tastes.

This is AVScience after all. Not people walking into Best Buy.
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post #1374 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McMahon
Just an honest question - why do you care? It is outside of your control, it'll be decided by business and technical reasons, and it'll be what it'll be. Why fret?
Because he may be using that decision as a measuring stick for which format to invest in?

I know it gives me reason to hold off, don’t you think we as consumers have reason to be concerned that something may not be as ‘next-gen’ as its touted to be?
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post #1375 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McMahon
Just an honest question - why do you care? It is outside of your control, it'll be decided by business and technical reasons, and it'll be what it'll be. Why fret?
LOL. We should maybe shut down the forum then ;)

For almost two years i read here how great bluray is and then launch comes and software is pretty much PANNED and now 4 months after launch Talk slips in that 80% of discs will probably be BD-25!

I care, because as a movie enthusiast, who has spent THOUSANDS of $$$$ on movies and more on equipment, i wish to have high quality versions of my favorite movies to view in my modest home theatre. I'd like to adjust my expectations (up or down) for bluray accordingly. Since Sony studio is IMHO the only real potential long-term HD-DVD holdout, that studio will have some unique offerings perhaps not available in any other HD format (opical or download)

Sure I am netflixing now, not purchasing... but i'll gladly stash away $400-500 for a stand-alone (full featured) bluray player sooner than later if i saw tangible EVIDENCE that bluray exclusive studios "get it" regarding PQ that we demand.

DVD's are about movies & people watch them in living rooms, how many people actually use their computer drives to sit and watch movies- Bluray's Andy Parsons
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post #1376 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by chinch
LOL. We should maybe shut down the forum then ;)
I think Tom's point is

(1) Are people more interested in quality than the movie itself?

(2) Source quality seems to have bigger impact than what codec is used

(3) If this is truly an investment, why make a decision based on short-term stumbles by any one company or organization?

(4) Nothing is static. What you have today has no correlation what you will have next year or the year after that.

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post #1377 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by kjack
I think Tom's point is
(4) Nothing is static. What you have today has no correlation what you will have next year or the year after that.
Exactly. Software advances at a rapid rate. Would you want to stuck with a software solution that is already at it's end of life or with something that is continously worked on and improving constantly, backed by a company with a good budget and expertise in software?
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post #1378 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 11:56 AM
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THIS THREAD IS HEADING THE WRONG DIRECTION .... thanks Tom. :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
I think Tom's point is

(1) Are people more interested in quality than the movie itself?

(2) Source quality seems to have bigger impact than what codec is used

(3) If this is truly an investment, why make a decision based on short-term stumbles by any one company or organization?

(4) Nothing is static. What you have today has no correlation what you will have next year or the year after that.
Sorry but i got his point and vehemently disagree with his posturing and post. BTW - You're too close to the situtation to talk objectively too. (if every "expert" could predict the future... blah)

Now you want to focus on what a sucky B-movie The 5th element was. :D :rolleyes:

how would 80% BRD-25 be "short term stumbles". ROTFLMAO.

Sorry but the moderators asked MEMBERS to stick to the questions and yet we have "insiders" berating customers for wanting minimal, basic, information so they can plan their purchases. Very disappointing :(

DVD's are about movies & people watch them in living rooms, how many people actually use their computer drives to sit and watch movies- Bluray's Andy Parsons
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post #1379 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 12:24 PM
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80% of disks will be BD25's????
That's a 180 degree spin from everything the Blu-Ray group has been saying for the last year, has something changed in the production process? such as smaller yields than expected?

Since most movies will be BD25's....if the quality doesn't improve dramatically by the end of the year, it's game over.(period)
will the Blu-Ray group be addressing the quality of the masters and the encoding of disks?

And for the record I will not buy ONE SINGLE HD PRODUCT till EVERY RELEASE is NEAR MASTER QUALITY with HIGH REZ AUDIO... Be it from Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, I could care less about extras...hell throw them on a dvd and I'll be happy.

Looks like it'll be DVD for another year or two... :(

Disappointed

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post #1380 of 4623 Old 08-11-2006, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rover2002
Sorry just to ask one question, are you talking about VC-1 or MPEG-2?
I'm talking about an advanced codec, whether VC-1 or H.264/AVC.

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