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post #1531 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 01:15 PM
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A simple question: How does the copy protection for the managed copy work technically? I mean how does it stop me from sharing the managed copy with the world?
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post #1532 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
A simple question: How does the copy protection for the managed copy work technically? I mean how does it stop me from sharing the managed copy with the world?
AACS does not specify this. Instead, technology vendors provide specifications to AACS for approval. If such specification does not satisfy the requirements of AACS in this regard, it will not be approved.

In simpler lanugage :), the system will need to use some sort of copy protection system as to not allow unauthorized usage. This means some form of DRM system where the content is encrypted, and it usage rights decide whether it can be played or not. With a proper "license" (key), the file itself would be useless (assuming the system is not compromised).

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post #1533 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
AACS does not specify this. Instead, technology vendors provide specifications to AACS for approval. If such specification does not satisfy the requirements of AACS in this regard, it will not be approved.
And "technology vendors" would be the HD player manufacturers? Or would that be third parties from which the HD player manufacturer would license such a technology? Do you expect that there will be multiple different/incompatible solutions?

I'm just thinking about the poor media player manufacturers. If they have to implement 20 different managed copy systems (because every HD player manufacturer uses a different technology) they'll have a *very* hard time.
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post #1534 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 02:26 PM
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I think it is more like platforms. For example Windows Vista has its own DRM tech from the OS level up that I would assume is perfect for securing a managed copy. Then for example Toshiba would develop their own protection mechanim for their network enabled set-top player.

The mechanism itself doesn't matter to the optical disc or AACS itself, what matters is that there is an approved DRM system in place to prevent managed copy abuse.

Of course that still leaves your point about 20 different DRM systems a possibilty, but that only effects interoperability among devices that want to share the managed copy. Which I agree is hardly a ideal.

Did I get the gist of this right?
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post #1535 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
And "technology vendors" would be the HD player manufacturers? Or would that be third parties from which the HD player manufacturer would license such a technology? Do you expect that there will be multiple different/incompatible solutions?
It could be either. Most CE companies do not have this technology so it is more likely to be from third-parties. And yes, different systems mean incompatibility.

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I'm just thinking about the poor media player manufacturers. If they have to implement 20 different managed copy systems (because every HD player manufacturer uses a different technology) they'll have a *very* hard time.
Fortunately, the situation is not that bad. Getting AACS approval is very difficult as the bar is quite high as far as robustness. So even common technologies such as Apple fairplay may not usable here. If I were to guess, I would say there are only 2-3 options right now.

Note that in our case, we license our DRM very broadly so it is relatively easy for other companies to support it. For example, the Pioneer BD player already has such support (although it requires more work to make it play managed copy content). So compatibility in our case is easier to achieve.

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post #1536 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:01 PM
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Ok, after thinking about it a bit more, probably managed copy will be used a lot on computers. E.g. I could imagine having a HD-DVD drive and wanting to do a managed copy to the HTPC hard drive. Now the HD-DVD drive in the computer is probably not from Toshiba or LG or any such CE company, but it's going to be more from a more computer oriented company like NEC or LiteOn. Now who decides which managed copy technology is being used in this situation? Is it NEC/LiteOn? Or is it the studio which produced the HD-DVD I want to have a managed copy from? Or can I choose myself which of the approved technologies I can use?

Thanks Amir, your comments are very much welcome, as always!
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post #1537 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:08 PM
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You are welcome :).

As to your other question, it doesn't matter how makes the drive for the PC as they are only component suppliers in that case. Other companies will write the software to play the content or make a managed copy.

BTW, TSST, the joint venture between Toshiba/Samsung will also supply PC drives.

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post #1538 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
For example, the Pioneer BD player already has such support (although it requires more work to make it play managed copy content).

But the Sigma Design SoC needs to support MS-DRM to make this streaming of MMC work?

Also, we will see bluray CE players to play managed copy of HD DVD from the Vista MCE in the future, right? :)

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post #1539 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
it doesn't matter how makes the drive for the PC as they are only component suppliers in that case. Other companies will write the software to play the content or make a managed copy.
Yeah, but who decides which managed copy technology is being used:

(1) Can I choose myself?
(2) Does the drive supplier/manufacturer decide?
(3) Does the studio decide?

If I could decide myself, I could choose a technology that my media player device supports. If the drive manufacturer or if the studio decides, things are going to be more complicated, because then I'll eventually have to deal with multiple different managed copy technologies.
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post #1540 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy
But the Sigma Design SoC needs to support MS-DRM to make this streaming of MMC work?
It already does or the Pioneer player would not be able to play streamed WMDRM content :).

Quote:
Also, we will see bluray CE players to play managed copy of HD DVD from the Vista MCE in the future, right? :)
In theory it is possible. In practice, they may not do so for political reasons, or the extra engineering required to go beyond playing regular Windows Media content.

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post #1541 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Yeah, but who decides which managed copy technology is being used:

(1) Can I choose myself?
Yes, among the approved technologies. And assuming you are a licensed developer of said DRM system.

Quote:
(2) Does the drive supplier/manufacturer decide?
Not in the case of PCs. Whoever writes that software devices. In case of home servers that are not PCs, then the developer of that system decides.

Quote:
(3) Does the studio decide?
Nope. They have to allow all approved output protection systems.

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If I could decide myself, I could choose a technology that my media player device supports. If the drive manufacturer or if the studio decides, things are going to be more complicated, because then I'll eventually have to deal with multiple different managed copy technologies.
Again, you can if are a developer. If you are an end user, you can only make this selection if your managed copy provider gives you more than one choice. Or you have access to multiple providers of such software (which is possible in the PC context).

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post #1542 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:24 PM
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Thanks to the insiders who answered my question about firewire and 5C. In short it is possible and legal however very expensive to make it work (although still cheaper than a new TV I bet :) ) Perhaps this is a situation where a high end player can have some value added over a cheaper one.

Thanks again!
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post #1543 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eq_shadimar
Thanks to the insiders who answered my question about firewire and 5C. In short it is possible and legal however very expensive to make it work (although still cheaper than a new TV I bet :) ) Perhaps this is a situation where a high end player can have some value added over a cheaper one.

Thanks again!
Jeff
Jeff, I don't think a high-end player will attempt to do this either. Transcoding to other codecs will reduce quality and they would not like to be known for that. They would also have to compress menus which could make them look really bad as they are hard to compress losslessly with MPEG-2.

With HDMI around, there really is no reason to go this way.

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post #1544 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Yes, among the approved technologies. And assuming you are a licensed developer of said DRM system.
I think he means given a list of approved DRM systems for MC out there, does the consumer have the choice of which will be used? Or will the choices be limitted to the specific set for which the device maker of the MC originating device has chosen to support?

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post #1545 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:47 PM
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Why is it that some SD DVDs from smaller studios will upconvert over component at 1080i (a lot of Anchor Bay, most everything from MPI, for example)? What are they lacking that most other DVDs have in place to preclude that upconversion?

Not that I'm complaining, you understand. :)

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post #1546 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Zimmer
Why is it that some SD DVDs from smaller studios will upconvert over component at 1080i (a lot of Anchor Bay, most everything from MPI, for example)? What are they lacking that most other DVDs have in place to preclude that upconversion?
Basically, they are too small of a fish for someone to go after them. They can also hide under the provision for professional applications. This is how some companies use SDI digital video output without copy protection. So I would not publicize their names too much if you want them to stay around :).

So you won't find top brand names going this way.

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Not that I'm complaining, you understand. :)
I am with you :).

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post #1547 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf
I think he means given a list of approved DRM systems for MC out there, does the consumer have the choice of which will be used? Or will the choices be limitted to the specific set for which the device maker of the MC originating device has chosen to support?

Gary
As a practical matter, you are stuck with the choice made by whoever implements managed copy. This is not like selecting one of two audio formats in a player. Software needs to be written to securely convert AACS content to target DRM. And end users can't do this.

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post #1548 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Zimmer
Why is it that some SD DVDs from smaller studios will upconvert over component at 1080i (a lot of Anchor Bay, most everything from MPI, for example)? What are they lacking that most other DVDs have in place to preclude that upconversion?

Not that I'm complaining, you understand. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Basically, they are too small of a fish for someone to go after them. They can also hide under the provision for professional applications. This is how some companies use SDI digital video output without copy protection. So I would not publicize their names too much if you want them to stay around :).

So you won't find top brand names going this way.


I am with you :).
Sorry Amir, but I contend that's not a good answer. It's actually very simple. These studios chose not to use CSS copy protection on their DVD's. In addition, almost all music/concert discs are unencrypted. It's a cost cutting measure.

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post #1549 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 04:17 PM
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Sorry Ron. I though he was saying some *players* have that option. I now realize he said some discs. You are right that if the disc is not using CSS, then the player can upsample if it wants.

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post #1550 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 05:14 PM
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Anyone willing to say when the final AACS specification is likely to be approved?

I thought many things about managed copy were sort of speculation until that happened.

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post #1551 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Sorry Ron. I though he was saying some *players* have that option. I now realize he said some discs. You are right that if the disc is not using CSS, then the player can upsample if it wants.
This is the type of signal that really bothers me because its the people who are coping movies and therefore removing the copyright protection and being able to upconvert, where as a owner of said disc if they don't have HDMI or DVI is then stuck with 480p. Amirm, how long do think it will take studios to figure out that the problem with piracy has to do with the actual a copy of the disc itself and not the signal? Why didn't that go with something like the Protection on DVD players where if hooked to a recording device it would screw with the signal? I guess I am just frighten of piraters getting full use of the media, while owners of the media are still severely limited.
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post #1552 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 05:24 PM
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People tend to not like technologies that "screw up" the signal as it can degrade the experience just the same for legitimate users. And the royalties for them can be high (both on content and players).

Anyway, we would need insiders from studios to answer your question which we don't have. I suggest if there is interest in discussion this topic, we create a seperate thread as I am sure the follow up responses will derail this thread :).

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post #1553 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Why? Did they think one sounds better than the other?
“Different strokes for different folks†:)
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post #1554 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Penton-Man
“Different strokes for different folks†:)
Let's hope they don't encode the same movie in all three video codecs in BD-25 for the same reason :).

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post #1555 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Let's hope they don't encode the same movie in all three video codecs in BD-25 for the same reason :).
Come, come Amir, you know they're referring to utilizing the BD50 venue with this stuff.

I'm back on that 4hr. thread trying to catch up. :o
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post #1556 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penton-Man
Is Disney planning on featuring 3 lossless tracks for some of their titles(and I aint necessarily talking the kiddie movies)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Why? Did they think one sounds better than the other?
Interesting non-answer. Can you give a straight answer now? If you honestly want to claim that you don't know why studios put different language tracks on disks then somebody could explain that first.

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post #1557 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
Interesting non-answer. Can you give a straight answer now?
I respectfully request that we keep this kind of tone out of this thread. And I was not giving answers but asking questions.

Quote:
If you honestly want to claim that you don't know why studios put different language tracks on disks then somebody could explain that first.
He said nothing about "different" langauge tracks. He said three lossless tracks. I assumed he meant PCM, DTS HD Master Audio and TrueHD. If he does mean different lanagues, then you should ask him more questions on it because he is the one with answers here, not me.

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post #1558 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 07:28 PM
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Just re-pinging my question (in-case it slipped through the cracks). Don't worry I won't ask again.

To HD-DVD insiders,

Say I have a Home-theater PC. I set my nvidia HDMI card to 24Hz (yes this can be done). I set my software HD-DVD player to "ignore flags/detect-24p" mode.

I am now getting 24p from HD-DVD content into my Pioneer 24p capable plasma.

Excellent.

Question.

I now enable PiP which is 60i based. What will I see on my screen (note I am forcing my output to 24p)? I am curious.

Dennis.
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post #1559 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 07:36 PM
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Dennis, saw your question first time :). Ironically, I have a Vaio BD laptop but not a Toshiba HD DVD! So can't test your scenario. I asked the guy who has one and he is on vacation for a week.

Just guessing for now, I would say the GPU in the laptop will frame rate convert it (i.e. the PiP video) to progressive. It does that today when you mix video and your desktop graphics. Note that our folks are running it at 72hz to get better compatibility with monitors out there. And that I don’t know what architecture the current software players use.

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post #1560 of 4623 Old 08-16-2006, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Dennis, saw your question first time :). Ironically, I have a Vaio BD laptop but not a Toshiba HD DVD! So can't test your scenario. I asked the guy who has one and he is on vacation for a week.
Amir, that's cool.

When an answer is available can you post it in this thread, much appreciated.

Dennis.
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