Industry Insiders Q&A Thread: only Questions to insiders please - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McMahon
So if you want/demand "1080P" output what would you like to happen in that case?
I'm not sure to what you're referring. I'm saying for Blu-ray the PiP video framerate must match the primary video, whether that be 24p, 60i, or 60p. How the video is handled once it's been decoded is up to the player and display manufacturers...

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post #1802 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 04:33 PM
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That's what I thought... sounds good to me...

:)

I wish HD DVD had the same requirement with 2ndary video streams as well.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #1803 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 04:41 PM
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OK, sorry about the delay. I am ostensibly on vacation right now and had to drive the family to the vacation home :).

As I suspected, there is no merit to these stories. Vista will not in any way block playback of HD content (HD DVD or otherwise). We do have facilities in the operating system for applications to query whether there are unsigned drivers in the kernel, and as such, may be a potential risk to secure playback of high-def content. But it is up to the application to decide what to do with such data. They can, as they do today on XP, playback anything they like and ignore that information. And to be clear, no request has been made from content owners to block playback of HD content in Vista in 32-bit mode.

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post #1804 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 04:45 PM
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Great news!

It must have been shocking to think you made that decision without consulting yourself, eh? :D

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post #1805 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 04:51 PM
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That it was! :D.

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post #1806 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 05:00 PM
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Amir, while we are at it...

I'm very puzzled and somewhat disappointed about the lack of initiative I see from Microsoft as THE core PC company regarding HTPC HD-DVD playback solutions. You are pushing the xBox360 addon while (in comparison) deserting your basis (HT)PC market. I guess there are definitely more PC users out there waiting for a proper HD-DVD playback and drive solution than xBox users -> especially among those really concerned about PQ (-> which is the HD-DVD key market).

The big question remains - and I know you refuse to answer it - will the HD-DVD xBox360 addon be compatible/usable as external USB2 drive with PCs???
Given the expected price point of the addon it is a pretty safe bet that it will take the HTPC market by storm -> considering that the cheapest BluRay PC drive will be about three times its price. This would be huge!

Amir, when will we know? Does MS take the HTPC market seriously (products like the Media Center Edition suggest so) and can we expect the same level of commitment and efforts in order to bring HD-DVD solutions to starving HTPC users as we see from MS in other areas?

PS: Cjplay, nice to see you so interested in HTPC HD-DVD playback!
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post #1807 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
It must have been shocking to think you made that decision without consulting yourself, eh?
too funny. Where is the laughing animated icon?

;)

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #1808 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 05:06 PM
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Amir,

Good to hear about the snafu regarding vista 32 bit playback. It didn't make sense in light of current XP based playback options (unless the powers that be consider them to be insecure, in which case there are lawsuits coming for WinDVD and PowerDVD and/or they should have never passed AACS certification for decode).

What about the story that there will be no native HD DVD playback support in Vista? I thought that was still on the table (no need for a 3rd party playback software)?
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post #1809 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogogus
What about the story that there will be no native HD DVD playback support in Vista? I thought that was still on the table (no need for a 3rd party playback software)?
We are still working on it. Vista brings the most difficult part to market: the core A/V pipeline that is required before we put our name in an implementation. Since we don't get another shot at enhancing the kernel in such a fundamental way, it was important to get that done in Vista.

Beyond that, our immediate priority is getting 360 HD DVD option to market, together with second generation HD DVD players and of course, software players. There is a ton of complexity and software in these new formats and our contributions this way is felt more strongly as a result.

To be honest, we had a choice of focusing on our own development and letting others to fend for themselves. But we decided it was more important for the format to thrive in a broader way than us having our stuff working first. So earlier this year at WinHec we announced our shift to help our partners and making that higher priority per above.

Hopefully you see the results of that in cheaper and broader availability of HD DVD products across multiple platforms.

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post #1810 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 05:25 PM
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amir,

What is Microsoft doing to allow/facilitate the many companies who might choose to support Blu-Ray in their Vista machines? Is this just something that they add on, and have you provided some hooks for them to make it easy?

By my tally, many of Microsoft's top Windows HW manufacturers are committed to Blu-Ray.
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post #1811 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion
Amir, while we are at it...

I'm very puzzled and somewhat disappointed about the lack of initiative I see from Microsoft as THE core PC company regarding HTPC HD-DVD playback solutions. You are pushing the xBox360 addon while (in comparison) deserting your basis (HT)PC market. I guess there are definitely more PC users out there waiting for a proper HD-DVD playback and drive solution than xBox users -> especially among those really concerned about PQ (-> which is the HD-DVD key market).
You ask good questions :). I can't give a quick answer as I have to take the kids out to dinner shortly. But here are a few quick points:

1. HD DVD folks don't pre-announce things all the time :). So because you don't hear things, doesn't mean there is no activity.

2. This is the time to make a format happen. The best way to do that for good or bad, is through CE equipment. Unless those devices come down in price and become mainstream, PC version of the same may not get legs.

3. Game consoles are an extension of CE equipment and with the holiday season coming, we have to make sure we have a great offering there.

4. The price of HD DVD/BD playback on PCs may be high. We are looking for ways to reduce this. Without it, the economics may not be there for volume market.

Quote:
Amir, when will we know? Does MS take the HTPC market seriously (products like the Media Center Edition suggest so) and can we expect the same level of commitment and efforts in order to bring HD-DVD solutions to starving HTPC users as we see from MS in other areas?
You will definitely see pre-announcements at some point. Just not months before :).

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post #1812 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
We are still working on it. Vista brings the most difficult part to market: the core A/V pipeline that is required before we put our name in an implementation. Since we don't get another shot at enhancing the kernel in such a fundamental way, it was important to get that done in Vista.

Beyond that, our immediate priority is getting 360 HD DVD option to market, together with second generation HD DVD players and of course, software players. There is a ton of complexity and software in these new formats and our contributions this way is felt more strongly as a result.

To be honest, we had a choice of focusing on our own development and letting others to fend for themselves. But we decided it was more important for the format to thrive in a broader way than us having our stuff working first. So earlier this year at WinHec we announced our shift to help our partners and making that higher priority per above.

Hopefully you see the results of that in cheaper and broader availability of HD DVD products across multiple platforms.
Amir,

about this core A/V pipeline. Does Vista bring us a next generation version of VMR (successor of VMR9 as part of the new DirectX)?
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post #1813 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 08:07 PM
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Amir: WHEW! My brick is saved!

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post #1814 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 08:14 PM
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I've done a couple of searches through this 58-page thread and haven't found an answer to this question; if I missed it, I apologize, and would appreciate it if I could be directed there.

Suppose we encode a 2-hour movie at 1080p/24fps using VC-1, but with two different sets of restrictions: (1) we are restricted to the maximum data transfer rate, and total storage capacity, of 2-layer HD-DVD; (2) we are restricted to the max. data transfer rate, and total storage capacity, of 2-layer BD (let's assume equal "typical" audio tracks for the two cases).

Given this, will there be a visible difference in PQ between the two, if we use a very high-quality 1080p display device and sit at a distance of, say, four times the screen height? Has any independent body carried out such a study and, if so, could I please get the link?

And a related question: I understand that HD-DVD currently uses VC-1 advanced, Level 3. Is that correct? And can one choose different levels of compression (and thus different bit rates) within VC-1 advanced, Level 3 -- or do you need to go to Level 4 if you want to employ a higher data transfer rate (i.e., a lower degree of compression)?

Thank you!
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post #1815 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjplay
For your second question, it's very debateable. The bitrate of just the video is around 1-2Mbits ABR for at least the Warner IME. The TE for Uni could have it higher or lower. The bitrate of the sub video can be higher or lower as necessary, but it has a much smaller buffer than SD main video to facilitate the secondary video decoder. The audio is normally at 192Kbps DD+ or possibly lower. However, the internal mixer is controlled by iHD and lowers/raises the feature audio to accomodate the sub audio. The subtitles are just another regular subtitle stream that includes the IME's dialog in it.

The graphics subsystem supports several formats. ..........However, it can be loaded at whatever bandwidth is left in the feature, so if only 20Kbits exist, then the graphic will be loaded at 2.5Kbytes per second, or if there's 1Mbit left, then it'll load at 125KBytes per second. However, 2 necessary graphics can't/shouldn't overlap each other in that part of the mux. So technically, the graphics loading has no definable "bitrate" in either case as it could range from 1Mbit to 29Mbits since the max mux rate is 30.24.
Cjplay (or any other insider with knowlege),
So there is nothing in the HD DVD spec which would limit how much bandwidth you can use with IME, menus, etc (I think this is the question Anthony was getting at)? In other words, if you chose to you could decide to use any amount with no spec restrictions? I had read somewhere (could have been someone's guess, don't recall now) that there was a limit of 4-5 Mbps for IME; is this incorrect, or does that refer only to the PiP part of it?

Also, how much has the total of all the "other" stuff (not audio or video) been running (bw) on discs encoded with PiP (I actually thought IME was an HD DVD name; I guess it's Warners?).

Hal
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post #1816 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pchemist
I've done a couple of searches through this 58-page thread and haven't found an answer to this question; if I missed it, I apologize, and would appreciate it if I could be directed there.

Suppose we encode a 2-hour movie at 1080p/24fps using VC-1, but with two different sets of restrictions: (1) we are restricted to the maximum data transfer rate, and total storage capacity, of 2-layer HD-DVD; (2) we are restricted to the max. data transfer rate, and total storage capacity, of 2-layer BD (let's assume equal "typical" audio tracks for the two cases).

Given this, will there be a visible difference in PQ between the two, if we use a very high-quality 1080p display device and sit at a distance of, say, four times the screen height? Has any independent body carried out such a study and, if so, could I please get the link?

And a related question: I understand that HD-DVD currently uses VC-1 advanced, Level 3. Is that correct? And can one choose different levels of compression (and thus different bit rates) within VC-1 advanced, Level 3 -- or do you need to go to Level 4 if you want to employ a higher data transfer rate (i.e., a lower degree of compression)?

Thank you!
Same question with the addition of what happens if we are have the bandwidth of Blu-ray but are limited to Blu-ray SL25 or SL15.

So the comparison is HD DVD SL15, DL30, and BD SL25, BD DL50.

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post #1817 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 09:31 PM
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Question about 360 HD DVD

Is it possible for the 360 HD DVD drive to work as an external PC HD DVD-ROM in Vista with appropriated softwares(eg. firmware updated for the 360 HD DVD drive, HD DVD software player...)?
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post #1818 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Does the presence of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD logos on the PS3 mean that it can output the audio streams over HDMI 1.3, or does it mean that it can also decode them? Also DTS had different logos for DTS output and DTS decoding so does anyone know if the same is true for the new audio codecs?
It means the Dolby decoders are in the box.
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post #1819 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
Cjplay (or any other insider with knowlege),
So there is nothing in the HD DVD spec which would limit how much bandwidth you can use with IME, menus, etc (I think this is the question Anthony was getting at)?
IME video has a limit of 6 bmit/sec for MPEG-2 and 4 mbit/sec for advanced codecs.

Quote:
Also, how much has the total of all the "other" stuff (not audio or video) been running (bw) on discs encoded with PiP (I actually thought IME was an HD DVD name; I guess it's Warners?).
The bandwidth for other elements is trivial compared to video.

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post #1820 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
It means the Dolby decoders are in the box.
Can we be more specific?

Does the presence of a TrueHD logo mean that a TrueHD 5.1 decoder is in the box? Does the TrueHD logo mean that full 5.1 TrueHD decoding is actually functional (as opposed to possible via future software update) in the release product?
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post #1821 of 4623 Old 08-24-2006, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
We do have facilities in the operating system for applications to query whether there are unsigned drivers in the kernel, and as such, may be a potential risk to secure playback of high-def content. But it is up to the application to decide what to do with such data. They can, as they do today on XP, playback anything they like and ignore that information. And to be clear, no request has been made from content owners to block playback of HD content in Vista in 32-bit mode.
I hope what you clarifying is that playback of HD-DVD and BluRay content will be available with 32-bit Vista.

Another way to read what you posted is Vista just provides the APIs so we can't really "prevent" playback, but that point would be moot if behind the scenes all the playback software providers have been requested to check for unsigned kernel-mode drivers and disable playback if they are found.

I realize the second scenario isn't Vista's fault, but obviously what the end user cares about is not semantics, but whether playback is possible either directly through applications provided with Vista or through 3rd-party apps.

So, is your clarification saying HD-DVD and BluRay playback will definitely be available with 32-bit Vista or are you saying 32-bit Vista provides all the facilities necessary for playback but you are unsure whether the player apps will allow playback given an environment where unsigned kernel-mode drivers could exist?
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post #1822 of 4623 Old 08-25-2006, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler
It means the Dolby decoders are in the box.
Hi Roger. Can you comment on the requirements for Dolby TrueHD in a HTPC? Will the audio path have to be protected like the video requiring a new sound card?
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post #1823 of 4623 Old 08-25-2006, 12:34 AM
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How much will developers have to pay to get a BRD kernel driver signed by MS? :)
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post #1824 of 4623 Old 08-25-2006, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemoCoder
How much will developers have to pay to get a BRD kernel driver signed by MS? :)
You can sign the driver yourself. There is no requirement for MS certs. We just don't want anonymous people at the party ;).

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post #1825 of 4623 Old 08-25-2006, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
IME video has a limit of 6 bmit/sec for MPEG-2 and 4 mbit/sec for advanced codecs.

The bandwidth for other elements is trivial compared to video.
Thanks Amir. And the IME limit, that's a HD DVD spec? The reason I ask is because I thought IME was a trademarked HD DVD name, but Cjplay mentioned another name used by Universal. The limit you are referring to is PiP, regardless of what the studio calls it, correct? And when you say other elements are trivial, does that include anything that could be added in the future, or what's there now (I assume other elements which are there now are menus and maybe animation?).

Any additional interactive stuff which would be downloaded would also not add to the bandwidth limit, correct (as it's not coming off the disc)?

Hal
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post #1826 of 4623 Old 08-25-2006, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler
It means the Dolby decoders are in the box.
Thanks, and do you think it likely that the Dolby TrueHD decoding will be done by the PS3 CPU?
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post #1827 of 4623 Old 08-25-2006, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
Thanks Amir. And the IME limit, that's a HD DVD spec?
Yes, it is the PiP spec limit in HD DVD.

Quote:
The reason I ask is because I thought IME was a trademarked HD DVD name, but Cjplay mentioned another name used by Universal.
Correct. That is why I called it IME video.

Quote:
And when you say other elements are trivial, does that include anything that could be added in the future, or what's there now (I assume other elements which are there now are menus and maybe animation?).
Correct.

Quote:
Any additional interactive stuff which would be downloaded would also not add to the bandwidth limit, correct (as it's not coming off the disc)?
Correct. They can have up to 15 mbit/sec additional bandwidth.

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post #1828 of 4623 Old 08-25-2006, 01:42 AM
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Amir,

Is the only way to use the "Additional Subtitle Stream" function for HD-DVD's to have the player connected to the internet and get the subtitle over the web from the studio that put out the HD-DVD? Does the additional subtitle have to be streamed from an official source or could I use a subtitle file from say my PC? And if the subtitle has to come from an official source, is there any word on studios making this available for releases that don't contain an english subtitle?

Thanks
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post #1829 of 4623 Old 08-25-2006, 05:25 AM
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Amir,

What do you think of this idea as a use for the external storage option of HD-DVD?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...10#post8282910

Is this something that could be done?
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post #1830 of 4623 Old 08-25-2006, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
You can sign the driver yourself. There is no requirement for MS certs. We just don't want anonymous people at the party ;).
However, you must sign with a cert from a trusted CA. There is of course some barrier to entry($$$) for this. Most end-users (the context of this discussion) won't be able to take a pre-exisiting unsigned binary driver "sign it themselves".

Note that I'm not opining on the signed-driver requirement one way or the other, but merely clarifying what would need to happen.

See: OSR's discussion of the matter

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