Bluray does not support 1080p30!! Did not know this! - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

This is very different to the Bluray situation with 1080p25 and 1080p30, where it is almost the opposite situation - the video is actually stored on the Bluray disc as 1080i60 or 1080i50, with playback hints talling players the interlaced stream originally came from a progressive source.

It can be. But, paidgeek is clear that the data can also be stored frame encoded (this is done on DVD too). In which case it is exactly the same as HD DVD with 24p.

There is no requirement that the data actually be interlaced in nature (interfield motion, interlaced filtered). It merely means the decoder is supposed to output a 1080i/50or60 decode. Same as HD DVD.

Remember, BD requires the same thing for the secondary. And clearly the vast majority of video PiP content will come from NTSC/PAL source (60i/50i). So this makes perfect sense that BD has defined an interlace decode for video source.

Like the claims of HD DVD, a player can always be made that ignores the flags. But I can't see how non-interlace content to 1080i/60 would be distinguishable to 1080p/30.

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post #212 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

It can be. But, paidgeek is clear that the data can also be stored frame encoded (this is done on DVD too). In which case it is exactly the same as HD DVD with 24p.

There is no requirement that the data actually be interlaced in nature (interfield motion, interlaced filtered). It merely means the decoder is supposed to output a 1080i/50or60 decode. Same as HD DVD.

Remember, BD requires the same thing for the secondary. And clearly the vast majority of video PiP content will come from NTSC/PAL source (60i/50i). So this makes perfect sense that BD has defined an interlace decode for video source.

Like the claims of HD DVD, a player can always be made that ignores the flags. But I can't see how non-interlace content to 1080i/60 would be distinguishable to 1080p/30.

Gary

Gary - your statements here are incorrect, I'm afraid. The situation is not at all the way you are envisaging it, and there is no similarity at all between the two.

What I am saying has just been confirmed on the Insider's thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9618046

HD DVD stores 1080p24 as native progressive 24 frames per second. All that is stored with it are playback hints for 60i players, but the video encode is true 24p.

However, Bluray cannot store native 1080 30p or 25p. It's just not there. So it has to be stored on Bluray as 1080i60 or 1080i50.

You can see evidence of this by the suggestion paidgeek made to someone who was asking about how to package their content here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9608405

However, there is code that can be used to tell the player that the 1080i60 is actually from a 1080p30 source and to process the two fields as a frame, but this is nothing like what you have suggested for HD DVD. HD DVD is a true 1080p24 encode. In fact, the bluray situation with 1080p25 and 1080p30 is actually more like the way that DVDs handled them.

Hope this info helps.
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post #213 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 12:10 PM
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Hey, guys, has anyone started the thread "HD-DVD doesn't support 24p"? That is a fact too, just like this lack of 30p on Blu-ray!

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post #214 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kdragon View Post

Hey, guys, has anyone started the thread "HD-DVD doesn't support 24p"? That is a fact too, just like this lack of 30p on Blu-ray!

Shame on you - that is not true. I assume the smiley was recognition that this post was just a "jab"?
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post #215 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

However, Bluray cannot store native 1080 30p or 25p. It's just not there. So it has to be stored on Bluray as 1080i60 or 1080i50.

What do you suppose is there when a 25p/30p source is stored interlace encoded in progressive frames? What's in those progressive frames, do you think?

The gotcha of DVD was that the encoder could store fields from DIFFERENT frames together in a progressive frame and compress that.

... AA BB CC ...
... AB BC CD ...

Anything was OK with DVD as long as a valid interlace stream could be emitted.

If the BD encoders restrict the fields of the 25p/30p to the same progressive storage frame, there is no issue, and the storage is equivalent to 25p/30p.

The tricky part, as Ben says, is trying to restore 25p/30p from the interlace decoding.

How do you suppose the HD DVD players output 30p?

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post #216 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

The data compression from a 30p source can be encoded as 30p but will have 60i syntax, just as with 24p and HD-DVD. If the data is from a 60i source it will be encoded 60i with 60i syntax. If the player outputs the data as 60i, the monitor will, in almost all cases, recognize that it is from a progressive frame and reconstruct it as such. The same cases hold true for 25/50.

Seems to be clear enough to me.

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post #217 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, some more posts from Paidgeek and Amir have shed some new light on this. Paidgeek is saying that the data can be encoded as true 1080p30 with 60i "flags" or "playback hints".

If this is the case, then that is true 1080p30 for all intents and purposes.

Yet it doesn't explain why "Nine Inch Nails" was encoded as 1080i60 (yes, with 60i flags) for the Bluray release. And yes, it was encoded as interlaced, not progressive.

Was it the tools at the time? If so, then why was paid geek telling Torsten to encode at 50i here if it could actually do 25p? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9608405

The mystery continues... to date we are now left with the message that Bluray CAN support progressive encoding of 1080p25 and 1080p30 (albeit with flags) but yet no titles have yet been encoded that way, and the bluray studio member is advising others to continue to encode interlaced?
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post #218 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 02:43 PM
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I always wonder if saying interlace encoding really means anything about how the data is stored. There probably isn't any difference in the output if the decoder outputs an interlaced stream.

The reason for progressive store is that it allows the opportunity of progressive processing. But, is that any great advantage with 25p/30p?

30p has to be output as something, and that will be 60i or 60p. I doubt will see displays handling 30p inputs. So, BD goes interlaced early and HD DVD will frequently go interlaced late. Really, in the end, the display has to de-interlace. No real difference there.

And if the player outputs 60p, it must have de-interlaced it on BD and double framed from HD DVD. Avantage HD DVD there, if the BD player de-interlace isn't up to snuff. But, the player has the advantage of knowing something about the 60i stream that is missing down the pipe at the display. It knows the frame rate of the source.

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post #219 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Shame on you - that is not true. I assume the smiley was recognition that this post was just a "jab"?

It was a light hearted jab, but if "Blu-ray doesn't support 30p" is a 'fact', then "HD-DVD doesn't support 24p" is also a 'fact'. I see that you finally found the answer.


[Nowadays I am not getting enough time to hang around here on AVS. Sorry for the delay]

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post #220 of 299 Old 01-29-2007, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry View Post

1080p30 is still fairly uncommon so I don't know of any current deinterlacing chips that can deinterlace or inverse telecine 1080i60 back to 1080p30. It is not really hard to do. For instance my UnComb filter on my web page does it simply.

Maybe uncommon in the US. I have lots of Japanese MTV DVDs in 30fps format aka NTSC 2/2 from 60i to 30p. On a "flag" player a simple "weave" gives perfect playback. Standalone deinterlacers such as DVDO's sil504 and Faroudja's FLI2200 also supports NTSC 2/2 for 60i to 30p processing.

Haven't read through the thread, anyway, I also agree a "proper" encoding of 30p in 60i should give perfect 30p playback so it's not a real issue.

regards,

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post #221 of 299 Old 01-30-2007, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdragon View Post

It was a light hearted jab, but if "Blu-ray doesn't support 30p" is a 'fact', then "HD-DVD doesn't support 24p" is also a 'fact'. I see that you finally found the answer.


[Nowadays I am not getting enough time to hang around here on AVS. Sorry for the delay]

No probs, kdragon. Yes, we have an answer from paidgeek, who says that bluray "can" do progressive encoding at 30p and 25p with the playback hints.

But he doesn't explain why that sort of content is *not* actually being encoded that way, but instead is encoded interlaced at 60i with 60i hints. Nor does he explain why only two days ago he was still advising "Torsten" to encode his 25p content as 50i.

So what we seem to have here is "in theory" Bluray "could" encode these progressively, but yet there are no examples of it. This is in stark contrast to the HD DVD situation where almost all material is encoded progressively.

It suggests that it is not supported by the Bluray players and/or is not possible to do with current Bluray tools. I suppose I'll gladly retract this statement if we start to see real examples of what Paidgeek is saying is possible.
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post #222 of 299 Old 01-30-2007, 07:11 AM
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How many movies are shot 1080p30?

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post #223 of 299 Old 01-30-2007, 07:15 AM
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Should this thread be renamed from:

"Bluray does not support 1080p30!! Did not know this! "

to:

"Bluray does support 1080p30!! Did not know this!"

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post #224 of 299 Old 01-30-2007, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

Maybe uncommon in the US. I have lots of Japanese MTV DVDs in 30fps format aka NTSC 2/2 from 60i to 30p. On a "flag" player a simple "weave" gives perfect playback. Standalone deinterlacers such as DVDO's sil504 and Faroudja's FLI2200 also supports NTSC 2/2 for 60i to 30p processing.

Haven't read through the thread, anyway, I also agree a "proper" encoding of 30p in 60i should give perfect 30p playback so it's not a real issue.

regards,

Li On

Hi Li On,

Yes, I'm sure that a lot of the studio material in Japan has been in 30p, since they have been ahead of thre curve on HD, so it makes sense that 2:2 would be more common there.

However, I'm really curious to see if it is properly supported on the BR players and whether this is part of the reason that people are telling the studios not to use it.

I'm going to get an encoder friend to put together a test BR disc with 30p and 25p content to see if we can figure out where the problem lies...
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post #225 of 299 Old 01-30-2007, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilka View Post

Should this thread be renamed from:

"Bluray does not support 1080p30!! Did not know this! "

to:

"Bluray does support 1080p30!! Did not know this!"


Not for now - there's no proof yet that it can do it, and a lot of evidence that it can't.

Hopefully we'll have a test disc ready soon to check it out in more detail.
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post #226 of 299 Old 01-30-2007, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Not for now - there's no proof yet that it can do it, and a lot of evidence that it can't.

How do you think 25p/30p -> interlaced -> fixed pixel display is going to appear?

It's the same question for for BD and HD DVD, since a lot of people will be using a 1080i transport.

Certainly nobody can expect 25p/30p inputs any time soon.

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post #227 of 299 Old 01-30-2007, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

How do you think 25p/30p -> interlaced -> fixed pixel display is going to appear?

It's the same question for for BD and HD DVD, since a lot of people will be using a 1080i transport.

Certainly nobody can expect 25p/30p inputs any time soon.

Gary

The point that Kris has made earlier is that if the player goofs up the 2:2 pulldown, then you lose half the resolution and it will look pretty bad no matter which display to output to...

That's why we're going to run a test.

(BTW - the input to the set is not a problem, all setups will take a 60i or 60p input, regardless of the source, and those with VPs or EU HD sets will also take 50i or 50p inputs. The real issue is what may happen inside the player before it sends that signal to the TV).
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post #228 of 299 Old 01-30-2007, 09:54 AM
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All these difficulties in conversion lead me to propose a number of things that "should" be done.

1. Since the CRT is the only true interlaced display (and it's disappearing)` interlaced scanning should be abolished.

2. Film should be shot a 30 FPS. How much longer will real film be used anyway?

3. The PAL countries should consider 30 - 60 FPS to eliminate another conversion headache.

With all of film's qualities, I'm surprised that the film community has held onto slow and juddery 24 FPS for so long - cost, I suppose. Although the mechanical constraints of frame advancement on film may be a factor.

Just tossing a few seeds out.

Dave
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post #229 of 299 Old 01-30-2007, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKennett View Post

All these difficulties in conversion lead me to propose a number of things that "should" be done.

1. Since the CRT is the only true interlaced display (and it's disappearing)` interlaced scanning should be abolished.

2. Film should be shot a 30 FPS. How much longer will real film be used anyway?

3. The PAL countries should consider 30 - 60 FPS to eliminate another conversion headache.

With all of film's qualities, I'm surprised that the film community has held onto slow and juddery 24 FPS for so long - cost, I suppose. Although the mechanical constraints of frame advancement on film may be a factor.

Just tossing a few seeds out.

Dave

While I doubt film for movies will change anytime soon, it is becoming much more common to shoot in 25p and 30p.

This is particularly true of sports and concert events, as the action is better suited to a progressive capture.

BTW - I would guess that today, the mechanical constraints would not be the issue - more likely its simply that the whole film industry in 24p and a conversion would likely be unthinkable.

However, there is some fantastic processing coming out now that can take 24 fps and create almost any variation (50p, 60p, 72p) without any judder, simply by creating additional new "in between" frames. Meridian demoed their MCTi solution at CES and I can tell you it looked incredibly good. Hopefully one day this sort of technology will be widely available in all sorts of gadgets.
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post #230 of 299 Old 06-01-2008, 01:09 PM
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I see it's been over a year since the last activity in this topic. Is there any new information regarding Blu-ray's support of 30p?

rdjam, were you ever able to run the 30p Blu-ray test?

I have an HD camera capable of recording 30p (I know, technically 29.97p), but I'm hesitant to use this frame rate if Blu-ray doesn't at least support it as SD DVD does using flags.
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post #231 of 299 Old 06-01-2008, 04:14 PM
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Why was this old format war thread resurrected?
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post #232 of 299 Old 06-01-2008, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

Blu-ray has always supported 30p (29.97p). Nine Inch Nails Beside You in Time is such a disc. All that is required is for pulldown flags to be added. The same is true for 25p.

BTW this is exactly the same way that 24p (23.976p) video had to be stored on HDDVD. But people were just too caught up in the format war to think.

HD DVD allows 24p/30p encode, with flags set to output at 60i. In contrast, BD does not allow for 30p encode, with 60i output. The input must come to it using 60i because 30p is not a valid input frame rate to the encoder (it is not part of the spec). And most likely the encoder would be running in interlace mode, rather than progressive. I suppose someone could hack the encoder to not use its interlace tools but since the output cannot be 30p out of the encoder, I am not sure it would be worth the effort.

Sure, the frames are progressive in both cases so we don't have the typical interlace issues to deal with. But two processes are not the same from technical and spec point of view. In one case, you would be converting the 30p frame based source to field based 60i and then encoding, and the other (HD DVD) would have been a straight encode with flags for the player to spit out 60i. Different animals, format war or not .

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post #233 of 299 Old 06-01-2008, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Faceless Rebel View Post

Why was this old format war thread resurrected?

The poster mentioned why. He wants to know if he can use his camcorder in 30p mode.

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post #234 of 299 Old 06-02-2008, 02:48 PM
 
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And I don't believe it would output it as 1080p60 either. So its going to be interlaced output no matter what. And then you can de-interlace it on the display end.

Why not? To recreate 30p would you not just repeat each frame in a 60p encode?

I guess unless any of have direct information from the BD spec no one really knows. In simpliest terms I would think that any frame that is a integer multiple of supported framerate could be recreated on BD.

60p>30p, just encode each frame 2x or set a flag indicating repeat frame...
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post #235 of 299 Old 06-02-2008, 03:19 PM
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Quote:


Blu-ray has always supported 30p (29.97p). Nine Inch Nails Beside You in Time is such a disc.

This title was encoded as interlaced. (Interlaced frame/field inside of interlaced elementary stream) We did add a mode to the VC1 encoder (PEP) that would place 30 frame progressive into an interlaced elementary stream, so you could essentially get 30p encoding. Note that the players will output as interlaced because of the interlaced elementary stream.
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post #236 of 299 Old 06-02-2008, 04:40 PM
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It seems a year's passage has not improved things much; the state of Blu-ray's support of 29.97p is as murky as ever. At best Blu-ray's support of 29.97p is confusingly ambiguous and at worst non-existent.

Here's irony for you: Panasonic and Sony, two of the developers of Blu-ray, have both released professional HD cameras capable of shooting 29.97p high definition footage. Most of Panasonic's DVCPRO HD line and a number of Sony's XDCAM and pro HDV cameras can capture footage at 29.97p. But what good is this capability when the HD optical disc format these same companies created may not be capable of delivering it?
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post #237 of 299 Old 06-04-2008, 10:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

Hmm, after re-reading your post I think you are referring to actually encoding the video as 1080p60 on the disc? Of course this is impossible since neither blu-ray nor hddvd support 1080p60.


Many BD players indicate that support 1080p60. I guess the question is if 1080p content can be directly encoded at 60fps.
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post #238 of 299 Old 06-04-2008, 11:13 AM
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Regarding the 1080p30 concern, doesn't the "Burning BLU Ray for the 1st time" topic in this very forum provide a glimpse that it is, indeed, possible? The provided video sample is essentially "1080p30" that came from a 1080i60 broadcast.

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post #239 of 299 Old 06-04-2008, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherD View Post

It seems a year's passage has not improved things much; the state of Blu-ray's support of 29.97p is as murky as ever. At best Blu-ray's support of 29.97p is confusingly ambiguous and at worst non-existent.

Here's irony for you: Panasonic and Sony, two of the developers of Blu-ray, have both released professional HD cameras capable of shooting 29.97p high definition footage. Most of Panasonic's DVCPRO HD line and a number of Sony's XDCAM and pro HDV cameras can capture footage at 29.97p. But what good is this capability when the HD optical disc format these same companies created may not be capable of delivering it?

These cameras derive 29.97p form 59.94i, so it is not native 29.97p.
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post #240 of 299 Old 06-04-2008, 02:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

There is no question. 1080p60 cannot be on a blu-ray disc. The players are only indicating their output support.

Do you have the Blu-ray spec?
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