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post #4861 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Hmmm - I'm really curious - could you link these reviews where the reviewer claimed to hear a difference between lossless LPCM and Lossless (anything else but assuming you mean) TruHD?

I'd really love to see that

Here is one reviewers take on it, or somewhat on it (since he doesn't have both from the same source): http://www.***************.com/htsth...?sequence=1842 under Audio.

I personally don't think he just looks at the box and suddenly the sound becomes better. YMMV. I'm more likely to believe that the encoding makes a difference, than changing your HDMI or powercable to something insanely expensive.

That said, I don't have the equipment yet (why oh why did I ever marry.. ) to test this, but someday I will. I might hear the difference, I might not. What I do expect is that TrueHD, Master Audio or Lossless LPCM all will sound terrific.

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post #4862 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

Since every HD DVD deck decodes lossless, why would you possibly not want it be made available if it could be?

Gary

My point is that the difference is insignificant, and therefore trivial.

It may even be indistingioushable, and therefore irrelevent.

But for me, and I would submit the vast majority of people, it is not a substantial difference, and so it is not an important difference.
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post #4863 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by skogan View Post

My point is that the difference is insignificant, and therefore trivial.

It may even be indistingioushable, and therefore irrelevent.

But for me, and I would submit the vast majority of people, it is not a substantial difference, and so it is not an important difference.

Sounds like you need to open up a poll in the HD-DVD SW forum and find out if your views on DD+ being "good enough" is OK with everybody else...

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post #4864 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

Which sites do you recommend for DVD discussion ??

b2b

In spite of being opinionated, I don't do a lot of web-yakking about the movies themselves, but I have my haunts.

For reviews and news;
http://www.dvddrive-in.com
http://www.eccentric-cinema.com/index.htm
http://www.dvdbeaver.com
http://www.videowatchdog.com/home/home.html
http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/index.html
http://www.inthebalcony.com
http://www.hollywoodbitchslap.com
http://p075.ezboard.com/bmonsterkidclassichorrorforum

For buying the odd and import;
http://xploitedcinema.com/catalog/index.php
http://diabolikdvd.com
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post #4865 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

Sounds like you need to open up a poll in the HD-DVD SW forum and find out if your views on DD+ being "good enough" is OK with everybody else...

b2b

But I don't care what people think they can hear. We would need some double blind testing.
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post #4866 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 02:27 PM
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Thanks, I've been looking for a good list for a while.

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post #4867 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Snickering Hound View Post

I prefer "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" for my Russ Meyer


I projected that to 30 friends in my backyard two years ago last summer, and they must have liked it because the came back for Cemetery Man in the fall.

Liquid Sky, however caused some to get up and walk out. It was hated by all but three people.

Go figure
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post #4868 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by skogan View Post

My point is that the difference is insignificant, and therefore trivial.

It may even be indistingioushable, and therefore irrelevent.

But for me, and I would submit the vast majority of people, it is not a substantial difference, and so it is not an important difference.

It will make a difference to some people. And if it truly is irrelevant for the rest, why would you specifically fight against it?

It's like fighting 1080p/24 output because most people don't have it. Or future deep colour upconversion across HDMI 1.3 because most monitors won't have deep colour capability.

There must be some relevance for you to be expressing an opinion against lossless.

Gary


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post #4869 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

It will make a difference to some people. And if it truly is irrelevant for the rest, why would you specifically fight against it?

It's like fighting 1080p/24 output because most people don't have it. Or future deep colour upconversion across HDMI 1.3 because most monitors won't have deep colour capability.

There must be some relevance for you to be expressing an opinion against lossless.

Gary

I can give ya indifference, which means it's simply not a factor in my choice. Doesn't mean you shouldn't care.
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post #4870 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

It will make a difference to some people. And if it truly is irrelevant for the rest, why would you specifically fight against it?

It's like fighting 1080p/24 output because most people don't have it. Or future deep colour upconversion across HDMI 1.3 because most monitors won't have deep colour capability.

There must be some relevance for you to be expressing an opinion against lossless.

Gary

I'm not specifically fighting against it, nor am I expressing an opinion against it. What I am fighting against is the idea that it is crucial, and I'm simply acknowledging the fact that it is unimportant.
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post #4871 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 03:33 PM
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I'm just not THAT convinced that someone can hear the difference between a well-sourced DD+ soundtrack and the Dolby True HD.

Anyway, ask a Lord of the Rings junky if they'd rather have a Dolby True HD soundtrack or an HD documentary on the fitting of those hairy feet, you know what most people would go for

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post #4872 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by skogan View Post

But I don't care what people think they can hear. We would need some double blind testing.

Thanks, I was beginning to feel like a voice in the wilderness around here. It's been repeatedly illustrated through ABX comparator double blind testing, that people report that they hear differences in a single source when they simply believe they're listening to two different ones. It wouldn't be the least bit surprising if repeated marketing claims and human psychology were entirely responsible for anecdotal reports of superior sound we read in professional and informal reviews. Does it matter if a fool and his money are soon parted? I'd reply that there's no excuse when such ignorance could so easily be rectified by a few points of empirical data.
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post #4873 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Snickering Hound View Post

Anyway, ask a Lord of the Rings junky if they'd rather have a Dolby True HD soundtrack or an HD documentary on the fitting of those hairy feet, you know what most people would go for

I'll take uncompressed 7.1/6.1 (LOTR was DTS-ES IIRC) PCM for $1000, Alex.

The hairy feet can go on a specials disc FULL of HD footage, but is hardly necessary.

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post #4874 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

I'll take uncompressed 7.1/6.1 (LOTR was DTS-ES IIRC) PCM for $1000, Alex.

The hairy feet can go on a specials disc FULL of HD footage, but is hardly necessary.

The extended special editions had the dts-es 6.1's or Dolby EX. The theatricals had good ol' dubly 5.1.

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post #4875 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

Sounds like you need to open up a poll in the HD-DVD SW forum and find out if your views on DD+ being "good enough" is OK with everybody else...
b2b

1 well designed double blind test is worth 10000 polls
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post #4876 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Snickering Hound View Post

The extended special editions had the dts-es 6.1's or Dolby EX. The theatricals had good ol' dubly 5.1.

Makes sense... i skipped the theatricals on DVD and will skip them on HD/BD until EE's come out.

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post #4877 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by johnu View Post

1 well designed double blind test is worth 10000 polls

Yeah you leave it to the polls you'll end up with everyone staying with VHS.

Haven't you seen what's happened with the MP3? We certainly do not want to leave this as a popularity contest... It's doomed Audiophiles to an expensive niche while the masses are more than ok with lossy crud... let's not do the same to the Videophiles...

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post #4878 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

Yeah you leave it to the polls you'll end up with everyone staying with VHS.

Haven't you seen what's happened with the MP3? We certainly do not want to leave this as a popularity contest... It's doomed Audiophiles to an expensive niche while the masses are more than ok with lossy crud... let's not do the same to the Videophiles...

How would that even be possible?
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post #4879 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by johnu View Post

1 well designed double blind test is worth 10000 polls

Oh but then good sir, how would we then take into account the value of marketing to perceptions ??

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post #4880 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

Oh but then good sir, how would we then take into account the value of marketing to perceptions ??
b2b

You're right, that could be the end for a lot of high end CE if people depended on double blind tests instead of marketing.

Anybody in the market for some old, used Monster cable? I've got a box full of them in my closet that I bought in my pre-internet days.
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post #4881 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by nilsp View Post

Here is one reviewers take on it, or somewhat on it (since he doesn't have both from the same source): http://www.***************.com/htsth...?sequence=1842 under Audio.

Very interesting except that it is:
Quote:


This PCM track is 24-bit/48kHz and delivers some of the best sound available in presentation, if not in the mix itself, which consists of a lot of helicopter radio talk that sounds innate, yet easily intelligible for such muffled dialogue.

of which no TrueHD track that I have ever read of has -- they have all been 16 bit/48kHz .

So sorry that is not a valid anything for uncompressed lossless versus compressed lossless. The extra 8 bits of encoding depth could easily be all the differences.
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post #4882 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Snickering Hound View Post

The extended special editions had the dts-es 6.1's or Dolby EX. The theatricals had good ol' dubly 5.1.

Yeh but the extended LOTR dts-es 6.1 was only the bastardized 768 kbps of which dts never approved. dts provided 1536 kbps capability to early DVD titles and did not like the studio switch to half bitrate. A lot of early DVDs with dts tracks did have the recommended 1536 kbps bitrate. (I'm using the numbers my Yamaha AVR shows here).
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post #4883 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

Yeh but the extended LOTR dts-es 6.1 was only the bastardized 768 kbps of which dts never approved. dts provided 1536 kbps capability to early DVD titles and did not like the studio switch to half bitrate. A lot of early DVDs with dts tracks did have the recommended 1536 kbps bitrate. (I'm using the numbers my Yamaha AVR shows here).

Which ones?

Blade 2 or 3 for example?

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post #4884 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

Very interesting except that it is:
of which no TrueHD track that I have ever read of has -- they have all been 16 bit/48kHz .

So sorry that is not a valid anything for uncompressed lossless versus compressed lossless. The extra 8 bits of encoding depth could easily be all the differences.

Just for fun:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/BitsTest.html
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post #4885 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Snickering Hound View Post

Which ones?

Blade 2 or 3 for example?

Sorry I doubt that those have the higher rate:
http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_1a.asp
Quote:


DreamWorks realised that using full 1509kbps DTS would force them to spread 'Saving Private Ryan' over two discs, as had been the case with 'Dances With Wolves'. Consumers accustomed to films presented on single discs generally pick the single disc version of a film when competing one- and two-disc versions of the same film are available (as Image learned with their two versions of 'Dances With Wolves'). DreamWorks were determined that both the Dolby Digital and DTS Digital Surround versions of 'Saving Private Ryan' would be presented on single discs. To accomplish this feat, DreamWorks released the DTS version of 'Saving Private Ryan' with a bitrate of only 754kbps, making it the first DTS DVD product to use a bitrate other than 1509kbps. Using 754kbps DTS, DreamWorks managed to shoehorn 'Saving Private Ryan' into a single RSDL disc, albeit without the 25 minute documentary included with the Dolby Digital version. It would be preferable from an audiophile perspective for 754kbps DTS's use to be restricted to longer duration films (i.e. over 160 minutes) that require 754kbps in order to be presented on a single disc. However, studios have found themselves unable to resist the practical advantages offered by 754kbps DTS, and this datarate is now the defacto standard for all DTS releases. Digital Theater Systems themselves have stated that 754kbps DTS is not "transparent", a claim they make for 1509 and 1235kbps DTS, and an assertion based largely on their format's higher bitrates.

BTW 1509 or 1536 kbps, etc. is really the same thing just consumed datarate versus utilised datarate.
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post #4886 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnu View Post

You're right, that could be the end for a lot of high end CE if people depended on double blind tests instead of marketing.

There's something to be said for quality of construction, pride of ownership, etc., and I think many would still purchase high end gear, even if they were fully cognizant of the fact that 99% of the benefit gained for such a disproportionate outlay of funds would be utterly intangible. My beautiful Marantz 2330b has been operating without fail.........OK I've replaced a few lamps, and need to spritz some tuner cleaner on the contacts occasionally........since the day I purchased it, thirty years ago. It wasn't even a particularly exclusive piece at the time, but obviously extremely well built. I've never even considered selling it.
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post #4887 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

Sorry I doubt that those have the higher rate:
http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_1a.asp

BTW 1509 or 1536 kbps, etc. is really the same thing just consumed datarate versus utilised datarate.

Thanks for the link!

Found the DTS dvd list on it with a bit rate chart

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_6a.asp

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post #4888 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rto View Post

There's something to be said for quality of construction, pride of ownership, etc., and I think many would still purchase high end gear, even if they were fully cognizant of the fact that 99% of the benefit gained for such a disproportionate outlay of funds would be utterly intangible. My beautiful Marantz 2330b has been operating without fail.........OK I've replaced a few lamps, and need to spritz some tuner cleaner on the contacts occasionally........since the day I purchased it, thirty years ago. It wasn't even a particularly exclusive piece at the time, but obviously extremely well built. I've never even considered selling it.

Sure, but where does efficiency fall. Is it not respectable? If a person can park their eyes and ears in front of a monitor and not be able o tell the difference between formats, why shouldn't there be some credit given to the design that did just as much with less?
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post #4889 of 6336 Old 02-08-2007, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by johnu View Post

1 well designed double blind test is worth 10000 polls

I will bet my engineering dollars that most true differences that people perceive are due to slight differences in output volume. I remember similar thing happening with DD and dts. dts was usually encoded at slightly higher volume, so it sounded better when switching between the two even when there was negligible difference between the two. I bet that LPCM is output at slightly higher volume than TrueHD on most receivers. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

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post #4890 of 6336 Old 02-09-2007, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by dialog_gvf View Post

I personally can't figure out how there can be a difference between LPCM and lossless. Yet, reviewers (and posters on here) are saying there is.

The only thing I can figure is the HD DVD decks are messing up the LPCM in the mixing phase of the advanced mode.

...snip...

Gary

There isn't. The DAC's are getting the same input bits. (somebody will likely claim jitter differences, but until I see some objective proof of such, I'll ignore it).

I'd love to see some double-blind tests of these people claiming to hear differences between LPCM and lossless, when they don't have an opportunity to read "LPCM" on the cover first.

If double-blind tests reveal differences, then it may be filtering in the mastering stage in an attempt to more easily compress the stream... which I'd be unhappy with...

-Steve
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