Can Blu-Ray support the next video format? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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They have said that we could have a bunch of layers so we can get a ton of storage. Could this mean that the disk would have enough space to support a new video format in the future, something like 1440p.
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post #2 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 08:27 AM
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Nope. Not in the spec.
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post #3 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 09:21 AM
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Where on earth did you get the 1440p from? Any next format will likely be 10 to 14 bit color and/or 2K (3840x2160) to 4K (7880x4320) resolution. None supported by the current HD disc formats.

There is a 1440x1080 format used and is called HD-Lite.
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post #4 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William
Where on earth did you get the 1440p from? Any next format will likely be 10 to 14 bit color and/or 2K (3840x2160) to 4K (7880x4320) resolution. None supported by the current HD disc formats.
Good lord! Do we really need that!? *passes out, out of exasperation for all these formats, money spent on them*
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post #5 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 10:17 AM
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Here is a question, will TV resolutions ever catch the PC?

2560x1600-Even the mainstream brands like Apple and Dell have theirs out now, why not a 16:9 version of this?

The standards are already there up to WQUXGA(3840 x 2400) and IBM released those monitors in 2001. WHUXGA supports 7680 x 4800, of course you would need 12 of those to even resolve one digital picture by a Betterlight Super 10K-2(14836 x 20072). So there is content for displays that haven't been made yet.

Why limit TV to only 1920x1080? Which for a PC would only be 1920×1200(PC's are 16:10 instead of 16:9)?
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post #6 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William
Where on earth did you get the 1440p from? Any next format will likely be 10 to 14 bit color and/or 2K (3840x2160) to 4K (7880x4320) resolution. None supported by the current HD disc formats.

There is a 1440x1080 format used and is called HD-Lite.
Sorry, industry standard parlance calls 2048x1080 2k and 4096x2160 4k. See this announcing the 4K specification.

SMPTE did testing of a 1440 vertical resolution format (I do not remember what the horizontal resolution was).

While it is true that neither format currently supports any images enhancements (wider color gamut, larger sample size or higher resolution), Blu-ray certainly has more headroom to do so than HD DVD.

/carmi
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post #7 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majortom
Sorry, industry standard parlance calls 2048x1080 2k and 4096x2160 4k. See this announcing the 4K specification.

SMPTE did testing of a 1440 vertical resolution format (I do not remember what the horizontal resolution was).

While it is true that neither format currently supports any images enhancements (wider color gamut, larger sample size or higher resolution), Blu-ray certainly has more headroom to do so than HD DVD.

/carmi
actually full frame 35mm 4K files are 4096x3072, and full frame 35mm 2K files are 2048x1536

http://www.celco.com/FormatResolutionTable4K.asp
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post #8 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 11:00 AM
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i am waiting on stereo 3-D, i have been doing 3-D photography for years now and even had those LCD shutter glass for my old CRT.

I will be getting a double HD res LCD when they come out and use a odd/even polarizing screen to convert to true HD-3D.
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post #9 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amiable-Akuma
Do we really need that!?
Since when has any of this had to do with "need"?

Sanjay

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post #10 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kschmit2
actually full frame 35mm 4K files are 4096x3072, and full frame 35mm 2K files are 2048x1536

http://www.celco.com/FormatResolutionTable4K.asp
I was talking about the presentation formats defined by the Digital Cinema Initiative (DCI), while that table describes scanning/film recording formats. A next generation pre-recorded media format will most likely be based on presentation formats, not scanning formats.

/carmi
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post #11 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 12:56 PM
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The question is , what can we fit on a holographic disc in 10 years with even more advanced codecs .

If we can hit 1tb on a holographic disc as a base line what do you guys think we could fit on that in terms of res with todays codecs ?
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post #12 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 01:00 PM
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Can you stamp out holographic discs like ROM discs? I would think that holographic would be great for recording/backup/archival but not as a distributed mass media in the near term.
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post #13 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror
They have said that we could have a bunch of layers so we can get a ton of storage. Could this mean that the disk would have enough space to support a new video format in the future, something like 1440p.
I don't think anybody knows, but it is possible that one of these physical disc formats could be used to make another format after these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William
There is a 1440x1080 format used and is called HD-Lite.
But that isn't 1440p. 1440p would be way more pixels than that since these aren't done off the horizontal (1920x1080 isn't 1920p).

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post #14 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 11:35 PM
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Maybe they're confused with demensions of 16x9, Pillarboxed masters?

If you crop the bars off of the sides of a 1.33 16x9 HD transfer the demensions become 1440 x 1080.

:confused:

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post #15 of 20 Old 12-23-2006, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitprod
Maybe they're confused with demensions of 16x9, Pillarboxed masters?

If you crop the bars off of the sides of a 1.33 16x9 HD transfer the demensions become 1440 x 1080.
DIRECTV does it because they are bandwidth limited and they aren't giving these channels as much bandwidth as they should. Then to decrease artifacts (even though there are still plenty) caused by the reduced bandwidth, they lower the resolution. The boxes then do the conversion of the signal to 16:9 (although it might still have pillarboxes).

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post #16 of 20 Old 12-24-2006, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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It wouldn't need to be in the spec, as they would need new players obviously. How many layers can blu-ray have? If it were able to hit 200gb I would think there would be no problem using it for another format. Unlike DVD, CD, and HD-DVD the capacity for blu-ray may turn out to be much more than what it started out as. Now they can't use this for blu-ray movies right now. But in 15 years it may be the way to go, sure there are going to be better storage devices. But if you can get enough disk space out of what you have, and just need new drives that will be able to do what ever with the disk that they need this could be interesting.

"Where on earth did you get the 1440p from?"
Did you even read my post I just said something like 1440p.

"Any next format will likely be 10 to 14 bit color and/or 2K (3840x2160) to 4K (7880x4320) resolution. None supported by the current HD disc formats."

Ok those resolutions are incorrect, as stated above. There is no reason to go with 2k Resolution as it's basicly the same as 1080p. 4k would be nice.

"There is a 1440x1080 format used and is called HD-Lite."

What does this have to do with 1440p, as 1440p would be 2560x1440. This would mean you would need to sit about 1.3 screen widths away to get the full resolution from the screen.
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post #17 of 20 Old 12-24-2006, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror
It wouldn't need to be in the spec, as they would need new players obviously. How many layers can blu-ray have? If it were able to hit 200gb I would think there would be no problem using it for another format.
There are couple problems with Bluray being used for the nextgen video format (past 1080P).

Disruptive Technology
Changing display technologies is a disruptive technology. They will happen few and far between. If and when a change happens it likely will be a large jump not a 20% increase that 1440P would offer. From DVD 480P to HD 1080P is a 6x increase in pixels. For a lot of consumers even that looks "a little better than DVD". A 20% increase would be negligible and not worth the upgrade. If and when another major change happens (2030?) it likely will be to drasticly better like 4K. Everything will likely change, broadcast standards, video equipment, displays, transmission methods, etc. Until then we are "stuck" with 1080P 8bit color. If consumers buy a 4K set they want to be able to watch 4K TV via cable, record it, timeshift it, buy it at the stores etc. Don't expect another change to come for a long long time.

Feasability of Multilayer Discs
TDK has shown that 6 & 8 layer discs are possible for BD-R. I haven't seen anything that indicates it can be done by BD-ROM (i.e stamping mass replication). It may never be possible to make an 8 layer BD-ROM, even if possible it may not be cost or time effective.

Size & Bandwidth
Even if 4K displays were out tomorrow and a "HD Ultra" format was release it likely would not be possible with an 8 layer BD Discs. Let's look at the math. 4K 14 bit would require about 30x the bits that 1080P 8bit does. Figure a good VC-1 encode @ 1080P takes about 20GB and runs about 15mbps for your "average" 120 minute movie. So a 4K encode would be somewhere in the range of 600GB and 450mbps. Now even if a figure a future codec (VC-2?) gave a 2X increase in compression with similar PQ that would be 300GB and nearly 225mbps. That's substantially larger than an 8 layer BD-R and massively over the max bandwidth BD can handle. So the short answer is no. BD is a 1080P 8 bit technology just like HD DVD.

BD and HD DVD likely will be the last traditional optical formats. We have reached the end of cost effective optical spectrum. Past blue-violet come ultraviolet and then even more exotic technologies. Going to ultraviolet and an extremely large aperture may allow something in the range of 100-200GB / layer which has already been passed by holographic. Holographic also bring some nice benefits of extreme protection for data and a massive increase in speed (1000mbps already shown in the lab). The next optical format will almost certainly be holographic. All indications seem to indicate that there is no easy way to make a "holographic ROM" which means distribution channels will need to change when BD or HD DVD is finally retired (2030?).

Funny to be talking about the "next thing" when BD and HD DVD are just out of the gate :D
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post #18 of 20 Old 12-24-2006, 11:26 AM
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going back to the OP. The answer is who knows. Like someone mentioned even if laser and disk structure is the same it won't be BD and most likely will have a different name. The last thing anyone wants (consumers, merchants and studios) is to complicate stuff (you buy a BD2 movie that is 4k rez with 8L and 400GB and try it on your BD1 player that can only handle 1080p and 2L 50GB.
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post #19 of 20 Old 12-24-2006, 09:33 PM
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I have read about 1/2 and 1/4 wave length red laser players demoed in the lab.
these technologies boost to near 8X increase in data density, from what little i could understand they use different lasers wavelengths to combine and negate parts of the read laser to see spots far smaller then the full wave. also read about in Scientific America some cool neg refraction materials that have allowed the focusing to a fraction of a wave length of the illuminating light.

there are also other technologies that use interference patterns besides full holographic systems . last are magnetic optical hybrids that would alow far higher data density like HD disk but be more like optical media in form factor.

I feel that the next jump HAS to be 3D, very few people will have TVs big enough to even see 4K. i can see 3D with the right codexs using only 160% the space as a 2D image in the same resolution and color space.
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post #20 of 20 Old 12-24-2006, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps
There are couple problems with Bluray being used for the nextgen video format (past 1080P).
...
Size & Bandwidth
Even if 4K displays were out tomorrow and a "HD Ultra" format was release it likely would not be possible with an 8 layer BD Discs. Let's look at the math. 4K 14 bit would require about 30x the bits that 1080P 8bit does.
I believe that Tom McMahon has said that the space needed for 10 bit compression is actually pretty close to that needed for 8 bit compression with AVC/MPEG4. He might be able to fill us in more on what would be likely to happen going to a higher bitdepth than 10, but even 10 bits with 4k might be enough for them to have a spinoff format.

Because of the way that people have to sit closer to start perceiving differences and the negatives of sitting too close from a comfortable viewing ratio standpoint, I don't think the next jump in resolution needs to be at as high a multiple as going from DVD to HD DVD and Blu-ray as far as pixels. And jumping to 10 bit instead of sticking to 8 bit would be more than those formats did in that direction.

It wouldn't shock me to see a 4k with 10 bit spinoff using basically the same disc technology and structure as Blu-ray, if Blu-ray wins this war. Sony has pushed to 4k resolution for their projectors in digital cinema and I think they will want to make a play with 4k resolution displays for the home. Starting at the very high end. And if they can get the enough displays in use at 4k, then they could create a market to have this spinoff format. It could spin the discs faster (for more bandwidth) and use 3 or 4 layers.

--Darin

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